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Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Drager wrote:
 slave.entity wrote:
Should a Phoenix Lord be able to go toe-to-toe with Marneus Calgar?
No, they should one sidedly butcher calgar.


 Imateria wrote:
 slave.entity wrote:
Should a Phoenix Lord be able to go toe-to-toe with Marneus Calgar?

The combat ones like Jain Zar and Karandras should tear him to pieces.


Funny how right now the opposite is true.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/10 18:16:59


   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




It isn't particularly funny. Many combat characters and units are one-shot glass cannons (or useless). Its just how the edition is designed.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





Likewise, Phoenix Lords should wipe the floor with normal marine Calgar.
[troll]However, Primaris Calgar should wipe the floor with them, of course!![/troll]

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 slave.entity wrote:
Drager wrote:
 slave.entity wrote:
Should a Phoenix Lord be able to go toe-to-toe with Marneus Calgar?
No, they should one sidedly butcher calgar.


 Imateria wrote:
 slave.entity wrote:
Should a Phoenix Lord be able to go toe-to-toe with Marneus Calgar?

The combat ones like Jain Zar and Karandras should tear him to pieces.


Funny how right now the opposite is true.


Seems like the Eldar players need to cool it with the fanfic.
   
Made in ru
Screaming Shining Spear




Russia, Moscow

I don't care what mary sue my miniatures need or have to butcher to be worthy, I just want them to be worthy of inclusion into the army because of some unique role they can fill well. Jain Zar is actually not bad as a pocket untargetable unit of Banshees goes, with Disarm she really was a swiss knife of rules. Giving her invul as a checkmark (because with 2+, a 5++ can be situational) and +1A would be enough for me. And extra wound would be amazing-tier.

As is, I expected nothing, and am still disappointed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/10 18:31:38


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 Shadenuat wrote:
I don't care what mary sue my miniatures need or have to butcher to be worthy, I just want them to be worthy of inclusion into the army because of some unique role they can fill well. Jain Zar is actually not bad as a pocket untargetable unit of Banshees goes, with Disarm she really was a swiss knife of rules. Giving her invul as a checkmark (because with 2+, a 5++ can be situational) and +1A would be enough for me. And extra wound would be amazing-tier.

As is, I expected nothing, and am still disappointed.


Yeah, having her at 4A is pretty stupid. Honestly, the attacks stat of most Eldar close combat specialists outside of the Harlequins 'dex is pretty stupid. Close combat specialist Succubi have 4A....backline general aristocrat Archons have...5? Why?

I've always said that I don't give a gak if my Eldar are the strongest, or the toughest, because they're not supposed to be those things. What they SHOULD be is the fastest - which in 8th edition should translate to their Move stat, and their attacks.

The fact that all marine captains and better on the charge or when charged (So, pretty much every turn) have a higher attack stat than the Eldar pheonix lords and close combat specialists is dumb. I'm sorry. Marines are already strongest, they're already toughest, they've already got the best and most useful command aura abilities, some other supposedly elite faction is allowed to have characters with higher attacks stats.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




the_scotsman wrote:
 Shadenuat wrote:
I don't care what mary sue my miniatures need or have to butcher to be worthy, I just want them to be worthy of inclusion into the army because of some unique role they can fill well. Jain Zar is actually not bad as a pocket untargetable unit of Banshees goes, with Disarm she really was a swiss knife of rules. Giving her invul as a checkmark (because with 2+, a 5++ can be situational) and +1A would be enough for me. And extra wound would be amazing-tier.

As is, I expected nothing, and am still disappointed.


Yeah, having her at 4A is pretty stupid. Honestly, the attacks stat of most Eldar close combat specialists outside of the Harlequins 'dex is pretty stupid. Close combat specialist Succubi have 4A....backline general aristocrat Archons have...5? Why?

I've always said that I don't give a gak if my Eldar are the strongest, or the toughest, because they're not supposed to be those things. What they SHOULD be is the fastest - which in 8th edition should translate to their Move stat, and their attacks.

The fact that all marine captains and better on the charge or when charged (So, pretty much every turn) have a higher attack stat than the Eldar pheonix lords and close combat specialists is dumb. I'm sorry. Marines are already strongest, they're already toughest, they've already got the best and most useful command aura abilities, some other supposedly elite faction is allowed to have characters with higher attacks stats.


Banshees and scorpions having 2A this edition never made any sense for the purposes of either fluff or balance. Even ork boyz have more





   
Made in gb
Deadly Dire Avenger




Scotland

Cronch wrote:
Ah, so demi-gods can only be matched by actual gods of other races, I see. Man, GW should just delete Xenos since they can't compete with Humanity


I think you're being intentionally obtuse, at no point did i say the Primarchs should be punching out Khorne and nicking his favorite seat atop his throne of skulls.

I said that Primarchs; being practically demi-gods from the seed of the Emperor, are on the same footing as beings who are splinters of shattered Gods or the greatest Champions of various Gods who are imbued with a portion of that God's strength. Surely that isn't a controversial stance to take.

The Phoenix Lords aren't and shouldn't be on par with The Avatar/Greater Daemons/C'tan shards, Primarchs are because of their practically demi-god like origins.

Space Wolves - Alpha Legion - Biel-Tan - Reikland - Lizardmen of Hexoatl - Slaaneshi Daemons
 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Likewise, Phoenix Lords should wipe the floor with normal marine Calgar.
[troll]However, Primaris Calgar should wipe the floor with them, of course!![/troll]


The only Eldar character that can get even close to threatening calgar is the avatar of khaine, ironically enough. Because it will often deal 3 damage to him with its melta sword, and the 5++ 5+++ is pretty good at staying alive.

All the other pheonix lords deal about 2 damage to the guy and get splatterized in one round
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Any one seen the Imperial fist leaks by valrak??
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 slave.entity wrote:
Should a Phoenix Lord be able to go toe-to-toe with Marneus Calgar?

Yes, though only very briefly as Calgar should be shredder pretty quickly.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





kingheff wrote:
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.


Asurmen dies in two rounds after getting Calgar to just past half hp.

Fuehan does worse but lasts the same number of rounds.

   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

kingheff wrote:
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.

Calgar has more A, W, T and S, none of the Phoenix Lords can remotely match that, though ironically Drazhar's fight twice and +1 to wound abilities mean can do some damage befor dying. It's really sad how GW are content to leave the Phoenix Lords with effectively 3rd ed stats in 8th.
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






kingheff wrote:
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.

I think this has kinda revealed our answer whether intentional or not as to why Jain Zar is not the character killer we thought/think she should be - GW have other Phoenix Lords for that and see Jain Zar as another role (horde killing maybe?). After all the aspects are supposed to focus on one particular aspect of warfare, it makes sense that their Phoenix Lord would be as specialised. Kinda. Maybe.

I suspect Karandras would be a character killer/assassin when he's redone.

   
Made in gb
Commanding Lordling





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
kingheff wrote:
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.

I think this has kinda revealed our answer whether intentional or not as to why Jain Zar is not the character killer we thought/think she should be - GW have other Phoenix Lords for that and see Jain Zar as another role (horde killing maybe?). After all the aspects are supposed to focus on one particular aspect of warfare, it makes sense that their Phoenix Lord would be as specialised. Kinda. Maybe.

I suspect Karandras would be a character killer/assassin when he's redone.



The one thing I keep coming back to when thinking about Jain's possible role is that she's maybe meant to be the castle killer, not a horde killer. Got an opponent who's wrapped up all of his units in a 3" bubble around a character? Shoot their screens, then get her to charge in ignoring overwatch and shred them.

I don't think she's going to be very good in that role but I could potentially see it as GW's intention for her.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Rogerio134134 wrote:
Any one seen the Imperial fist leaks by valrak??

There's a new leak besides the Tor character?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
kingheff wrote:
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.

I think this has kinda revealed our answer whether intentional or not as to why Jain Zar is not the character killer we thought/think she should be - GW have other Phoenix Lords for that and see Jain Zar as another role (horde killing maybe?). After all the aspects are supposed to focus on one particular aspect of warfare, it makes sense that their Phoenix Lord would be as specialised. Kinda. Maybe.

I suspect Karandras would be a character killer/assassin when he's redone.


It makes more sense for Kara to be the character killer since he deals Mortal Wounds and is a stealth guy and stuff.

That said the Phoenix Lords should have 5 attacks minimum at least.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/10 22:14:05


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Devious Space Marine dedicated to Tzeentch





Basically the low attacks issue is an 8th issue. Almost every CC character or unit does not have enough attacks barring a few obvious exceptions like berserkers or Steelers. Daemon prince 4 attacks base. Warp talons. 1 attack base. And there are so many more across all armies.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rogerio134134 wrote:
Any one seen the Imperial fist leaks by valrak??

There's a new leak besides the Tor character?


yup, I'll post it ion a marine focused thread

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

 xeen wrote:
Basically the low attacks issue is an 8th issue. Almost every CC character or unit does not have enough attacks barring a few obvious exceptions like berserkers or Steelers. Daemon prince 4 attacks base. Warp talons. 1 attack base. And there are so many more across all armies.

Don't Daemon Princes have 5 base? Most of the units that don't have many attacks are the ones that have been left behind with stats that haven't really changed since 3rd ed, like Phoenix Lords. There are plenty of units though that have been given both the quantity and/or quality of attacks that are needed, GW just take a scattershot approach to who gets it and in some cases skip complete codexes in this matter (like Craftworlds).
   
Made in us
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster




Australia

 Imateria wrote:
 xeen wrote:
Basically the low attacks issue is an 8th issue. Almost every CC character or unit does not have enough attacks barring a few obvious exceptions like berserkers or Steelers. Daemon prince 4 attacks base. Warp talons. 1 attack base. And there are so many more across all armies.

Don't Daemon Princes have 5 base? Most of the units that don't have many attacks are the ones that have been left behind with stats that haven't really changed since 3rd ed, like Phoenix Lords. There are plenty of units though that have been given both the quantity and/or quality of attacks that are needed, GW just take a scattershot approach to who gets it and in some cases skip complete codexes in this matter (like Craftworlds).


As xeen said in his post, Princes technically have 4 base but always get 1 extra from their talon (3 extra if they take the pair)

Sons of Horus 29th Company 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
kingheff wrote:
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.

I think this has kinda revealed our answer whether intentional or not as to why Jain Zar is not the character killer we thought/think she should be - GW have other Phoenix Lords for that and see Jain Zar as another role (horde killing maybe?). After all the aspects are supposed to focus on one particular aspect of warfare, it makes sense that their Phoenix Lord would be as specialised. Kinda. Maybe.

I suspect Karandras would be a character killer/assassin when he's redone.



It looks pretty obvious they're not doing anything good with the Phoenix Lords. Hopefully, the backlash is loud enough for GW to hear.
   
Made in ca
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





British Columbia

Nah. The boxset that is half ancient sculpts and 30% more expensive than the all new kits Shadowspear not selling out will just reinforce the Marines first mentality.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Eldarain wrote:
Nah. The boxset that is half ancient sculpts and 30% more expensive than the all new kits Shadowspear not selling out will just reinforce the Marines first mentality.


sadly you're proably right, Wake the dead also sold out a lot faster then most boxes and GW will if the eldar set under sells proably point to those two date points as proof eldar just aren't selling (even though wake the dead suffered more due to primaris box fatigue then anything. I think at this point everyone has more hellblasters and intercessors then they know what to do with)

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in vn
Longtime Dakkanaut




I reckon this box would sell well and the price epidemic continue. Because people will just suck it up and buy it with their 25% off from their store.

Man I really miss Death Masque and Burning of Prospero, they had insane value but without the insane price.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chopstick wrote:
I reckon this box would sell well and the price epidemic continue. Because people will just suck it up and buy it with their 25% off from their store.

Man I really miss Death Masque and Burning of Prospero, they had insane value but without the insane price.


Calith was IMHO the best value simply due to being ALL Space Marines.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





That prospero had pretty similar value...

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/12/31/tneva82-december-moria/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





tneva82 wrote:
That prospero had pretty similar value...


it did but traded some of the stuff for custodes and sisters. Calith meanwhile was a single force and thus made for an awesome "army in a box"couse I bought both of em, but yeah for awhile I was basicly reccomending calith over the starter set for marine intreasted people

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




San Jose, CA

BrianDavion wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
That prospero had pretty similar value...


it did but traded some of the stuff for custodes and sisters. Calith meanwhile was a single force and thus made for an awesome "army in a box"couse I bought both of em, but yeah for awhile I was basicly reccomending calith over the starter set for marine intreasted people


Yeah, Calth was probably the best box recently in terms of sheer value to a single player. I added 30 tacticals, 5 Cataphractii, Chaplain, Cat Capt & a relic contemptor in one fell swoop.

name another box before or since with that much bang for your buck for one faction?

everyone saying the eldar box sucks, but as a ynarri only player it makes sense(not that I'm buying it...cuz Sororitas), just not from a competitive viewpoint. yes it sucks it's not whole squads, that it's not a raider & wave serpent, etc...but as someone who doesn't own any of the included models, it looks appealing.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





ad chances are if banshees where squads of 10 before, we'll see their new data sheet being size 5-10

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
 
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