Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

((If anything here is incorrect I apologize. I am basing this off of what I know about the Tyranids and I have not read everything out there.))

Here's my take on the hive fleets, their origin and their future capabilities.

Ok, lets start with what we know:

-The hive fleets come from somewhere outside our galaxy, where exactly and how far, we cannot say.
-There have been three hive fleets so far to enter our galaxy, the codex lists others but fluffwise, three is all that there are.
-The tyranids require biomass to replicate (duh!)
-As of now the hivefleets have been kept from gaining any serious ground (as far as we know, the galaxy is vastly enormous after all!)

So here's my take on it...

1.The hive fleet comes from a nearby galaxy, which they have already consumed. Every world has been stripped of life leaving only the devourers. The hive fleets in that galaxy then joined together to create some sort of planatary body in it's own right. This mass now forms new hiveships and disperses them in all directions to seek out new biomass to add to their own, furthering their evolutionary advancement. The hiveships that are successful return with their aquired biomass, adding it to the original therefore creating the new variants of tyranids that we see in the different hivefleets that have attacked our galaxy.

2.Or it could be that it is only willing to form a single hivefleet at a time to save biomass since they can no longer replace it readily. They then send the hivefleet to our galaxy, being the closest place with biomass for them to consume. If this is the case than beating the fleet is a simple matter of holding them off until they run out of biomass to create more fleets or they deside that our galaxy is not worth the resources required to conquer it.

3.The Hive fleets that we have seen so far are nothing more than the advanced party of a much, much larger fleet which is headed towards our galaxy!

Is the hive mind capable of making these distinctions? Is this even plausable? Let me know what you think...

I like to think that the hive mind is a large hivesip linked to a moon ot planet, maintained by all sorts of creatures, surronded by hiveship of special purpose with planet sized overlords running the show and protecting the hive mind. launching many hiveships in all directions as the hivemind slowly follows with his personal armarda of hiveships and overlords. by thats just what i want it to look like

hive mind Is a stare god one of the one's goe excapte.( nercon fluff ) that what I think so I think it has a limited of masse

By the text, Tyranids have devoured *galaxies* already.

Whether the Hive Fleets so far seen are any inkling of the actual Tyranid threat is a fun, but slightly differing issue - as stated. I would venture so far as to say they look more like scouts, checking the various borders. The fact that it even "thinks outside the box" to check the "top" and "bottom" borders, that the humans rarely notice, shows an intrinsic spatial awareness lacking in most species.

Pretty sure they do a risk gain assessment and then go from there. If we succesfully repel enough hive fleets then they will leave us alone and search for easier pastures.

While as for the hive mind. I always viewed the Tyranids as a kind of bio based version of the borg. They attempt to assimilate everything they meet in the search for the perfect predator. The ultimate survivor.

I think the Hive Mind would look like a giant greasy brain with jaws, then when he gets to Terra, he can just munch it. If that won't work, he can pop it with his crazy brain power.

It's the Outsider C'Tan you fools... it has to be incorporated somewhere. And it makes sense that the C'Tan would prepare for their return to the galaxy. The Void Dragon may have foreseen the Machine Cult populating Mars, and as the Necrons are machines, he may want them as the next generation of Necrons or just as a tool to turn against Terra. The Outsider may have chosen to stay awake and left the galaxy to create the Tyranids. Notice how in the Necron 'dex it shows how the Hivefleets ignore some planets where the Necrons supposedly dwell. The Outsider may be awakening them once the Shadow in the Warp generated by the Hivefleets so that once the 'nids have smashed a planet's defences, the Necrons can attack.

The C'Tan concept is certainly an interesting one, and would reflect their basic view of reality as a plaything/feeding ground - the creation of species just another example of causing destruction.

However, I think that the Tyranid's are similar, obviously, to communal species which we see on our own planet such as termites, bees etc. The difference is that that their spread through the galaxies is more analogous to the spread of a virus, leaping like from planet to planet in the manner that a virus does from cell to cell. Like a particularly deadly virus, they provoke immune reactions from the planets, aiming to overwhelm them and consume.

However, this analogy also demonstrates their weakness. Viruses must sustain themselves with hosts and materials - they expire if they destroy everything. Tyranids also really upon hosts in the form of biomatter, requiring sustained consumption to continue their spread. This could indicated that if ways could be found to either isolate or divert them into 'dead' space, they may burn themselves up, being forced to self-consume in order to survive.

In regards to whether our galaxy is worth the effort of devouring, I suppose it depends upon how sentinent/evolved the Tyranids are. You would think that darwinian rules would kick in if they found that they were requiring to expend more energy than they were consuming, but possibly something as alien to our conception as the Hive Mind would not base its motivation on matters such as these.

Maybe the Tyranids ate a C'Tan and the Hive Mind is what they "learned" from it.


Mmmm. Tasty. Brain Food.

A 'species' that could self modify would be able to engineer a mostly self sustaining biomass.
So in theory they would need to burn nothing and maintain a closed system (maybe with some sun power).
Without outside catastrophe (ie Ultramar) they would grow exponentially, seeing that all 'waste' would be reinvested fully.

I've always thought of the Hive Mind as nonexistent in a physical sense and that the tyranids operated even more collectively than a hive or a cellular creature.
More like a slime mold.

I am a bit skeptical about Tyranids being able to consume every planet in a galaxy. I certainly believe they can get most of the galaxy, but surly they are going to miss some planets? The entire Imperium could fall, all the major ork empires destroyed, the Tau consumed, and so forth, but there must be a few isolated planets, maybe with intelligent life with no connection to any other systems that would escape this fate? I suppose the Tyranids have the capability, but statistically, they are bound to miss a few due to some random reasons.

Anyway, I believe the Tyranids definitely are involved in other galaxies. They may have a foothold there, or are fighting the locals much like in our galaxy. There could be other galaxies that are completely controlled by the Tyranids with no other major opposition. They could just continuously grow and breed new fleets to send them out to other galaxies. Such a journey across intergalactic space would of course take millions ( if not billions) of years. This original galaxy could very well be free of the Tyranids by now for some reason.

There could be thousands of hive fleets traveling along many different vectors to all neighboring galaxies. If this is not the case, then it will eventually be so. Once the tyranids are done with our galaxy I do not think they would stop (unless they are just following some preprogrammed plan) . They would send out fleets to all of our neighboring galaxies.

The Tyranids dont necessarily need to go out and consume biomass to survive. I heard from a local tyranid player that they have begun to "farm" on some planets, so they have a redundancy in case an invasion goes wrong. This is the most optimal way to get energy, as a star provides all the enemy you will need. It is also no stretch to imagine Tyranid ships being able to undergo some form of photosynthesis. All the hive fleets could just crowd around a star for all their energy needs. So, the main reason to invade would be to A) destroy the enemies B) expand their territory to ensure no disaster kills them all. Depending on one star is no good. It will eventually die out. Galaxies eventually burn out, or get destroyed in a massive gamma radiation burst. The best, long term solution is multiple galaxies with multiple hive fleets spreading around.


I think the Tyranids are definitely very intelligent. Maybe not sentient, but when it comes to organization a campaign against an entire galaxy, managing ships, troops and so forth, they outmatch any human. They do not need to understand concepts of advanced physics, math, military tactics and so on. It could just all be instinct. If a certain world is too difficult to consume, then move on and dont come back.

Ekranoplan wrote:I am a bit skeptical about Tyranids being able to consume every planet in a galaxy. . .
Anyway, I believe the Tyranids definitely are involved in other galaxies. They may have a foothold there, or are fighting the locals much like in our galaxy. There could be other galaxies that are completely controlled by the Tyranids with no other major opposition. They could just continuously grow and breed new fleets to send them out to other galaxies. Such a journey across intergalactic space would of course take millions ( if not billions) of years.

Umm, skeptical?
I was quoting the Codex (it is in the BGB too) about the "consuming galaxies" thing - and they use plural as well. Plenty of characters disagree through that book, but the first part about themes and where Tyranids come from isnt even "fluff" of that order. And contains the fun sentence, "Unrelenting and unstoppable, the Tyranid race represents the eventual doom of both Mankind and the alien races who inhabit the known galaxy." WOOT - good stuff, and vague! Chaos has a chance then! ^_^

Also note they are not the type to "completely control" anything any more than say, a shark is. There is ample evidence the synapse isn't even "control" in any normal sense even by etymology.

Tyranids are the perfect race for game designers to explain changes to the 40K universe.

Why did we get rid of Squats? Tyranids ate them!

Why can't I get as many of x heavy/ special weapons in my army's new codex? Tyranids ate some Forgeworlds!

So on and so forth...

kirsanth wrote:

Ekranoplan wrote:I am a bit skeptical about Tyranids being able to consume every planet in a galaxy. . .
Anyway, I believe the Tyranids definitely are involved in other galaxies. They may have a foothold there, or are fighting the locals much like in our galaxy. There could be other galaxies that are completely controlled by the Tyranids with no other major opposition. They could just continuously grow and breed new fleets to send them out to other galaxies. Such a journey across intergalactic space would of course take millions ( if not billions) of years.

Umm, skeptical?
I was quoting the Codex (it is in the BGB too) about the "consuming galaxies" thing - and they use plural as well. Plenty of characters disagree through that book, but the first part about themes and where Tyranids come from isnt even "fluff" of that order. And contains the fun sentence, "Unrelenting and unstoppable, the Tyranid race represents the eventual doom of both Mankind and the alien races who inhabit the known galaxy." WOOT - good stuff, and vague! Chaos has a chance then! ^_^

Also note they are not the type to "completely control" anything any more than say, a shark is. There is ample evidence the synapse isn't even "control" in any normal sense even by etymology.

Well I think GW got it wrong, I dont care if they invented the thing. I find basically everything about the 40ks fluff to be acceptable, and it is all possible on some level. Nothing is really "unrealistic", except of course for the whole cinematic nature of things, but every pieice of fiction has to deal with that problem. Even non-fiction. In real-life, people are never quit so eloquent with their speech, events dont align up to keep the action moving, and warfare tends to be rather unglamorous.
Ive always subscribed to the belief that IPs should be protected from the stupidity of their authors.

But I find the term "consuming galaxies" to be dubious. Of course the Tyranids really only consume biomass, and only that which is easily obtained. They cant get the microbes that might exist in asteroids, or all the carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen. They probably cant find rogue planets, or check every ice covered moon for hydro thermal vents. If our current theories about the formation of life are correct, then life would ineveitably return in the wake of the Tyranid hive fleets. By the time the Tyranids cross the galaxy, there would be a whole heap of regrown worlds at the other end. I could imagine the Imperium of Man falling, and other empires rising and falling, in the time it takes for the Tyranids to finish fighting their way across the galaxy. Of course this makes little difference for us humans, Orks, Tau, and other assorted races. There is not much difference between consuming 90% of the galaxy, and consuming 100% of the galaxy.

Cheese Elemental wrote:It's the Outsider C'Tan you fools... it has to be incorporated somewhere. And it makes sense that the C'Tan would prepare for their return to the galaxy. The Void Dragon may have foreseen the Machine Cult populating Mars, and as the Necrons are machines, he may want them as the next generation of Necrons or just as a tool to turn against Terra. The Outsider may have chosen to stay awake and left the galaxy to create the Tyranids. Notice how in the Necron 'dex it shows how the Hivefleets ignore some planets where the Necrons supposedly dwell. The Outsider may be awakening them once the Shadow in the Warp generated by the Hivefleets so that once the 'nids have smashed a planet's defences, the Necrons can attack.

Except of course the Tyranids have psychic powers and the hive mind has a warp presence , which is the complete antithesis of the C'tan entirely.

I think the planets they avoid is due to necron defenses like Pariahs or more pylons which would disrupt the Hive mind and thus prevent them from attacking successfully.

There's any number of theories that explain that chart in the Necron codex. The simplest is that Necrons entombed themselves on dead worlds to avoid the Enslavers, and why would the Tyranids be interested in dead worlds? The Dyson sphere, being an artificial construct and likely life-free, would also fall in the same category.

Also, as reds8n suggested, the Tyranids navigate psychically. They're a massively psychic species. Meanwhile, the Necrons are busy bees collecting pariahs, right? So as the Tyranids go sniffing around looking for the warp presence of life, they hit a dead spot created by pariahs, get a bad taste in their "mouths", say "eww" and look to move on.

People have to get off the Starcraft-Zerg thing. Tyranids in the 40K universe represent two main themes:

1) The alien, the beasts in the forest, the "here there be monstres" on the map

2) Nature gone wrong, evolution as a runaway freight train, life folding in on itself

And to second Belphegor's comment, I don't think the hive mind is intended to be a Starcraft-style "cerebrate" or whatever the hell those things are called. The hive mind is literally a communal mind.

Here's Andy C's fluff from the opening of the 2nd ed. Tyranid codex. It's still good stuff.

Beyond the human galaxy, beyond the range of human spacecraft and astrotelepathy, lies the unspeakable cold of the intergalactic void. Few men have ventured into this realm and none have ever returned. It is the greatest barrier that divides galaxy from galaxy, a place where time and space conspire to hold the galaxies apart with inconceivable distances.

Yet the void is no longer empty. An immeasurably ancient and implacable intelligence moves through the cold and the darkness, its many eyes fixed on the distant glittering lights of our galaxy. The Great Devourer moves between the stars and hungers for the flesh of all who lie before it. This great organism, this monstrous entity, men know as the Tyranid race.

Every thought and action, every spark of life in the Tyranid race is bound and interlinked into a single mind, into a single great entity which stretches over light years of space and is controlled by the immortal hive mind. A billion times a billion Tyranids stand at the rim of the galaxy yet each one is not more than a single cell in the living body of the hive mind, the devourer of worlds.

I don't buy the C'tan theory either. The nids are too warp-based to really have anything to do with them, especially since we are pretty sure that it is the outsider's fractured personality that nurtures the pariah gene in the celexus temple. (scary) Frankly, if the nids were created by anything, I'd say a few remaining old ones looked at the galaxy and made a nice big abort button. With all the bio-mass gone, the C'tan may have to go back to eating stars, and abandon their physical forms.

I think it's most likely that evolution hit the sweet spot in some other galaxy, and the nids ate everything. Then, like moths, they started to fly towards the pretty lights of the milky way.

They could simply be an ultimate, MAD style doomsday weapon some surviving Old Ones fled the galaxy and created, using their greatest asset(psychic powers and biology) to wipe the galaxy clean of all life, starving the C'Tan to death.

Exactly... then again, there's absolutely no evidence suggesting this.

The Nids will consume all, even chaos, But then they may become chaos nids.

beef wrote:The Nids will consume all, even chaos, But then they may become chaos nids.

Wait a minute now. Hold that thought. What would the effect be if the 'nids should enter the Eye of Terror? In what ways would the Chaos Gods and the Warp alter their rapidly mutating and evolving genetic code?

I shiver at the mere idea.

...........I don't wanna be there when something comes back out

idk if 'nids can even be affected by chaos. they don't live long enough, do they? that's why the Tau haven't gotten it yet.

they have undoubtaedly fought before though. the Chaos has to exist in more than just one galaxy, doesn't it? so in theory, the Chaos Space Marines may have already fought the 'nids in another galaxy...

i think they must be a scout party
I think the nid are huge
prepare to die

nah, Tau dont get chaos bcause of their nearly non-existent warp presence see this thread:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/53889.page for that, aging has nothing to do with it. Also using tau references here, the Kroot eat their pray, and pick up some of the traits... I remember reading somewhere that the Tau found that their Kroot allies "mysteriously" lost it after battles with chaos (the Kroot got corrupted by what they ate (you are what you eat)) so they began a policy of pretty much going Wounded Knee on all of their Kroot after a battle (or maybe a campaign) against Chaos, and more specifically, Daemons.

So after that, it is really a scarry as hell possibility that when/if the "nids hit the Eye Of Terror, they will get corrupted as all fukk, and hell, (seeing as they are thousands of times more succeptible to being affected by battlefeild muchies as Kroot are, hell, they evolved to be able to do just that, think of the 'nid warriors that came as a result to nids eating enough UIltras...) if enough were there at once you could end up with the Hive Mind as a 5th chaos god.

The nids won't add chaos tainted and mutated genes to their pool.
This material is too unstable to use with their hyperevolved genepool.A tainted nid will be not a new variant,it surely
went to a overmutated chaosbreed endin up as a blob of dissolving biomass.

Chaos-kroot OTOH are a fluff and modelling option.
"you are what you eat"

So, somewhere back in pre-history, there was just one hive entitiy. One hive fleet, if you will, even if it was still planet bound at that time. And in the way that these things do, like ants in the spring, a hole load of 'brood mares' spoored off and the successful ones became new hive fleets. The great leap into space etc etc etc. So to follow along this darwinian path, if each hive world is a descrete entity, then when they meet; they act like they do whenever they meet any other race/world. Eventually one of them devours another.

But. If when they meet they ally, then that could point to their collective 'mind' spanning all of the hive fleets. Which is interesting.

Well isnt only scout partys of hive fleet come through to our galaxy, and soon the rest of them will follow and were all die.

I expect if there is a creature known as the Hive Mind, he probably wont bother showing himself. That would be a huge risk on his part he does not need to take. Instead he will probably just keep on sending Hive Fleets at the Imperium. Since 3 or so Hive Fleets that have been sent did some pretty hardcore damage, he would probably think of us as lowly and easy creatures to conquer, not really worth showing himself.

Eventually I assume the Nids will send 4-5 Hive Fleets into occupied space at once. Hitting the Eldar, Tau, and Imperium all at once so to send them all reeling from the attacks. Then they will emerge full on for the attack, only to find an ass ton of Orks attacking them from an area of space they didnt explore or feel needed explored because the signs of intelligence were "below average."

Or I wish it would be like that. Orks could probably fill their need for battle just by fighting endless wars against the Nids. Fix a lot of things for the rest of the Galaxy if they just finished each other off.

Dessel Ordo wrote:nah, Tau dont get chaos bcause of their nearly non-existent warp presence see this thread:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/53889.page for that, aging has nothing to do with it. Also using tau references here, the Kroot eat their pray, and pick up some of the traits... I remember reading somewhere that the Tau found that their Kroot allies "mysteriously" lost it after battles with chaos (the Kroot got corrupted by what they ate (you are what you eat)) so they began a policy of pretty much going Wounded Knee on all of their Kroot after a battle (or maybe a campaign) against Chaos, and more specifically, Daemons.

So after that, it is really a scarry as hell possibility that when/if the "nids hit the Eye Of Terror, they will get corrupted as all fukk, and hell, (seeing as they are thousands of times more succeptible to being affected by battlefeild muchies as Kroot are, hell, they evolved to be able to do just that, think of the 'nid warriors that came as a result to nids eating enough UIltras...) if enough were there at once you could end up with the Hive Mind as a 5th chaos god.

I think the Kroot stopped themselves from eating Chaos spawn. But yeah, they do take on characteristics of what they eat. Certain tribes specialize in certain things. Flying, water, speed etc etc.

The idea of a 5th Chaos god being the Hive Mind or even Malal being the Hive Mind is interesting. Since Chaos revolves around the Warp and Psykers, and since Malal is the God of Chaos turned on itself, it is kind of interesting that the Warp are Warp and Psyker blocks.