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So, I was reading Massawyrm and bigred's review of 5E on AICN and don't know why I hadn't thought of it before, but with the new TLOS and Cover rules, I'm wondering how this would work:

Let's say I model up 10 Imperial Guard using Heavy Weapon kneeling legs and 10 Imperial Guard using regular standing legs. The kneeling leg IG are one platoon and the standing leg IG are a second platoon. Let's say I'm not worried about blast templates, so I line the kneeling leg IG up in a nice tight line for a front row and then line the standing platoon up right behind the kneeling leg guys.

Because of TLOS, both platoons should get LOS on the same targets without the kneeling leg platoon interfering with LOS. I'm also figuring that the kneeling leg models are probably taller than 50% of the standing leg models. Consequently, the standing leg unit gets a 4+ cover save from the kneeling unit.

Here's my real question - because the kneeling unit is taller than 50% the height of the standing units, am I right in believing that they would give any enemy units shot at by the standing unit a 4+ cover save? And consequently making my modeling of the kneeling units pretty useless?

No real need to model kneeling guard.

Go back and review the rules or simply wait to get your rulebook....modeling those guardsman would be WAY more trouble than its worth.

VERY little reason to do it, also look forward to creative modelling like this to be pretty much universally frowned upon.

Here's my real question - because the kneeling unit is taller than 50% the height of the standing units, am I right in believing that they would give any enemy units shot at by the standing unit a 4+ cover save? And consequently making my modeling of the kneeling units pretty useless?

Answer: Yes; shots fired from the second rank will give your opponent a cover save.

Option: Hills may be your friend here, in a very WHFB manner.

Speculation: there are unfounded rumors that the next Guard 'dex will include some sort of platoon-level firing drill, that allows firing in ranks w/o granting cover saves.

Janthkin wrote:Answer: Yes; shots fired from the second rank will give your opponent a cover save.

Option: Hills may be your friend here, in a very WHFB manner.

Speculation: there are unfounded rumors that the next Guard 'dex will include some sort of platoon-level firing drill, that allows firing in ranks w/o granting cover saves.

Okay, that's what I figured, but I wanted to get confirmation from folks that have a better handle on the 5E rules than I do. And I'm also following the new IG rumors about being able to fire through ranks - I look forward to hearing more as we get closer to the expected IG Codex release.

You could also make another rank of troops lying on the ground.

You could also make another rank of troops lying on the ground.

I would not mind that personally, if my opponent was willing to spend THAT much time for an advantage that will only last as long as a single guard squad survives fire then he deserves the damn cover save

The rules are pretty clear that in most cases creative modeling will have no effect, there are some loopholes (like this one) that we will see crop up. Honestly though I do not see them having much effect on the actual gameplay. This tactic will be mildly usefull, but can by quickly overcome just by firing at the front rank then the second ect... Guard Squads dont last long under fire unless in cover, and if they are allready in cover then this doesnt matter anyway.

It will, howver, LOOK COOL. and thats what really matters!

I prefer my guys standing on their hands. This way they can get line of sight under Skimmers.





Sarcasm off.. The only real advice I can give is to do NO creative modeling at all, because it will lead to frustration. People wont play you in pickupgames and you will have to argue at tourneys.

One even has to keep possible complaints in mind now when ingame advantages arent intended, because the situational effect of special poses will likely be food for whiners you might not be able to avoid at tourneys.

From what I'm reading, though, as bigtmac68 pointed out, creative modeling won't have much effect. I mean, using the kneeling models, I cover >50% of the second row - giving both the standing row and any enemy unit it's shooting at a 4+ cover save - that really doesn't give me any advantage.

Similarly, modeling troops lying on the ground - while they might look nifty if done properly - won't provide >50% cover to anyone behind them, so no one benefits from a 4+ cover save from them - friend or foe.

Kneeling Guardsmen in front of standing Guardsmen will provide the standing Guardsmen with a 4+ Cover save.
If the standing Guardsmen can draw line of sight (from their eyes) to the enemy unit over the kneeling Guardsmen, the enemy unit will not get a 4+ Cover save.

There is no need for the kneeling Guardsmen to cover 50% of the standing ones. A given model just have to be partially obscured to claim the save. 50% or more of the models have to be partially obscured for the entire unit to claim the save.

Steelmage99 wrote:Kneeling Guardsmen in front of standing Guardsmen will provide the standing Guardsmen with a 4+ Cover save.
If the standing Guardsmen can draw line of sight (from their eyes) to the enemy unit over the kneeling Guardsmen, the enemy unit will not get a 4+ Cover save.

There is no need for the kneeling Guardsmen to cover 50% of the standing ones. A given model just have to be partially obscured to claim the save. 50% or more of the models have to be partially obscured for the entire unit to claim the save.

Thats wrong. Steelmage, you're quoting more of what looks like the "vehicular" rules for cover....

I know you guys dont all have the rulebook...so....

"If a model fires through gaps between models in and intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. note that this does not apply if the shots go over unit rather than through it." (this goes the same for "area" terrain, but I left that part out since we arent discussing it right now.)

So the firer (F) can shoot at a totally visible unit (O), and the unit granting the cover save (X) doesnt actually have to block any line of sight at all...you just have to fire thru it.


--------------> OO
F------------->X
F-------------> OO
F------------->X
F-------------> OO
F------------->X
F-------------> OO
F------------->X
F------------->X


So, actually there is hardly any point in this 'Creative Modelling' unless you're just doing it for aesthetic value. As a matter of fact, there is a GOOD chance that the whole idea will backfire on you. If a walker shoots at your unit that you're trying to protect with the kneeling guardsmen, it could wind up simply looking straight over their heads, since they're lower to the ground, and you'll not get a cover save at all from the intervening unit.

We're playing "true line of sight" now, sure...but there are a couple of exceptions where infantry are concerned.

Deadshane, what you have failed to include is the fact that the rules allow for line of sight to be drawn OVER area terrain and intervening units and if this is the case no cover save is granted because of the intervening terrain or models (of course GW didn't include any visual references of this, but the rules absolutely do allow it).


So yes, modeling kneeling or laying down guardsman can absolutely give the guard player a benefit as his back rank of standing guys will be able to draw their LOS completely over the kneeling guard in front of them. However when the enemy draws LOS back to the standing guardsmen their LOS will indeed pass through the kneeling unit in front.

The rules do not specifically grant you permission to convert your models, but nor do they specifically deny it. That tends to leave the door open (as it always has) to allow players who feel the need to do so to gain an advantage through modeling.

This has always been the case in every edition of the game and nothing major has been changed now.

There will be some who feel the need to take advantage of such situations and there will be others who feel the need to heap scorn and hatred onto the players that do so.

Ultimately it still comes down to: How badly do you want to win your toy soldier game?

yakface wrote:
Deadshane, what you have failed to include is the fact that the rules allow for line of sight to be drawn OVER area terrain and intervening units and if this is the case no cover save is granted because of the intervening terrain or models (of course GW didn't include any visual references of this, but the rules absolutely do allow it).

I thought I said that....

deadshane1 wrote:
If a walker shoots at your unit that you're trying to protect with the kneeling guardsmen, it could wind up simply looking straight over their heads, since they're lower to the ground, and you'll not get a cover save at all from the intervening unit.

...just utilised the example of a walker because its so easy to visualise....there's also the final sentence of the almost fully quoted rule.

Ok.




The Ork will receive a 4+ Cover save since he is partially obscured by the Gretchin.






The Space Marine will receive a 4+ Cover save since he is partially obscured by the Gretchin.






The Ork will receive a 4+ Cover save since he is partially obscured by the Gretchin.






The Space Marine will NOT receive a 4+ Cover save since he is NOT partially obscured by the Gretchin.




The Ork shooting is not going through the Gretchin but over him. As the rules state is quite possible.


Won't get you any friends and definetly not for a friendly game, but legal.

The Ork shooting is not going through the Gretchin but over him. As the rules state is quite possible.


Won't get you any friends and definetly not for a friendly game, but legal.

Actually, in the case of the grots I think that is the whole point of taking them. It then works pretty much like the old rules for grots, only slighty better but only under certain circumstances. With them costing half as much as a boy with much more terrible stats, I think that kind of advantage was probably intended. Tyranid warriors and gaunts work the same way and with the OTT points paid for warriors I can see this as a nice balancer. Tau crisis and broadsides can also take advantage of this.

There's no creative modelling or anything, so it isn't at all like the kneeling soldiers thing. In fact, I think model size and interaction with other models in the army should be a consideration for points costs. It may already have been a consideration. Like say why a monolith is notably cheaper then other vehicles. The thing is freaking huge and difficult to hide.

As far as OT, not much else to add, there's an advanatge to using the kneeling guys for sure. It does come with its own disadvantages though, namely LOS issues when the kneeling guys go to shoot. I do agree though that you won't impress people if you use this.

I agree on the grots!

I have a unit of 30 ready to go

Long story short, if you model your units to be kneeling/laying down to gain an advantage in the rules, expect to be executed, reviled, exiled, and subsequently stalked through dark parking lots by your ex-gamer buddies.

So is it okay if I play Tau and my models come in the box kneeling?

I mean it makes sense that the front row of a gunline would be kneeling, in a 1800s kind of way.

If you have to cheat...build your models for an advantage. It will be clear what kind of player you are.

Personally, I cant be bothered to build my models in any other way than the way they were meant to be built and used in the game. I dont need to take advantage of loopholes to win.

Its all these silly and ridiculous ways to abuse the rules, (including the mixed unit for cover save nonsense) that water down the game and give 40k players a bad name.

Model for advantage...please do it...it brands you a loser. If that's what you have to do in order to gain an advantage...you lost before you rolled the first dice.

Deadshane1 wrote:If you have to cheat...build your models for an advantage. It will be clear what kind of player you are.

Personally, I cant be bothered to build my models in any other way than the way they were meant to be built and used in the game. I dont need to take advantage of loopholes to win.

Its all these silly and ridiculous ways to abuse the rules, (including the mixed unit for cover save nonsense) that water down the game and give 40k players a bad name.

Model for advantage...please do it...it brands you a loser. If that's what you have to do in order to gain an advantage...you lost before you rolled the first dice.

That statement actually sounds like its comming from a true loser (someone who lost their game).

I cant be bothered with it either(or intermixing units for that matter) and can understand that some pepole might think you are a jerk for doing it, but its in the rules as written at the moment. And unless FAQed or prohibited in some other way its just the legal way to play the game, pretty much as optimizing your army or whatever.

Kallbrand wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:If you have to cheat...build your models for an advantage. It will be clear what kind of player you are.

Personally, I cant be bothered to build my models in any other way than the way they were meant to be built and used in the game. I dont need to take advantage of loopholes to win.

Its all these silly and ridiculous ways to abuse the rules, (including the mixed unit for cover save nonsense) that water down the game and give 40k players a bad name.

Model for advantage...please do it...it brands you a loser. If that's what you have to do in order to gain an advantage...you lost before you rolled the first dice.

but its in the rules as written at the moment. And unless FAQed or prohibited in some other way its just the legal way to play the game, pretty much as optimizing your army or whatever.

Tell me where in the rules it says that you may model units in order to gain advantage? Oh thats right, its NOT in the rulebook. I never said it was illegal, but it is underhanded, AND a loophole.

But Whatever, if you want an entire army of space marines that are all "lying down" in order to gain the advantage of taking cover behind even the smallest bit of terrain...knock yourself out...it will look stupid on the tabletop.

As for my comment labelling me a loser and being sour grapes...if thats how it sounds to you, thats cool.

Think you left out the line from the quote that said I couldnt be bothered with it, trying cut and paste to break up someones arguements is quite cheap.

And I guess if you want something to blame if you lose and that works for you, thats cool.

Also, I dont think the main reason for lying/kneeling models will be to getting cover behind the smallest bit terrain but to grant cover saves to the unit behind you without giving it to the enemy. Think you might actually get away with 3 ranks lying-kneeling and standing, if you want that.

Kallbrand wrote:Think you left out the line from the quote that said I couldnt be bothered with it, trying cut and paste to break up someones arguements is quite cheap.

What?...Your post is right above mine, noone missed anything, I quoted the relevant piece that I was responding to. Settle down.

And I guess if you want something to blame if you lose and that works for you, thats cool.

...not that this has any relevance, but I'll include it so you dont blow a gasket.

Also, I dont think the main reason for lying/kneeling models will be to getting cover behind the smallest bit terrain but to grant cover saves to the unit behind you without giving it to the enemy. Think you might actually get away with 3 ranks lying-kneeling and standing, if you want that.

3 ranks converted...prone...kneeling...standing....why not include standing on top of a couple of levels of cork modeled to look like rock?...oh yea, because the rulebook expressly forbids it without opponents consent. To bad the rulebook doesnt include a passage for modelling for advantage as kneeling for cover does (not that it gives you much...it doesnt)...I guess the writers would just assume that we all had the smallest bit of common sense.

Common sense would be that a guy who stands behind someone kneeling would be able to fire over them, as have been done in all times. Warhammer rules are not common sense though, but in this case they seem to go the same way. Maybe that is the reason its allowed within the rules?

Also, relevance is probably there when you try to qute and point it out that I actually could be bothered making lying down marines when I specifically wrote that I couldnt. And you found it relevant to erase it from your quote. Now thats a bit of common sense.

All this theoryhammer probably wont work in practice. For starters any normal amount of terrain will disrupt the mathematical formations

Grot cover.

I dont think this is cheesy at all, but what grots are there to be. However while the ork directly behind a grot will benefit the ork behind him might not, you would need to string out your units and have thin lines of grots and orks for this to work. This is not a favourable formation for orks.

IG Platoon ranks.

The modelling project looks good as a form of close order drill. However that would have platoons in blocks firing side by side.

However having platoions in lines is problematical. for a start a few blasts template hear the middle will render both platoons (or three if you have a prone line) out of formation, forcing compulsory reforms and losing you the benefit of any heavy weapons.

Heavy weapons themselves with usually all kneeling crew are another problem, and the big base gets in the way.

Finally any melee combat into the front rank will neutralise the firepower of the entire formation.

It doesnt look to be worth it to me.

Kallbrand wrote:Common sense would be that a guy who stands behind someone kneeling would be able to fire over them, as have been done in all times. Warhammer rules are not common sense though, but in this case they seem to go the same way. Maybe that is the reason its allowed within the rules?

Also, relevance is probably there when you try to qute and point it out that I actually could be bothered making lying down marines when I specifically wrote that I couldnt. And you found it relevant to erase it from your quote. Now thats a bit of common sense.

Not sure I agree with you, except the part where you say "Warhammer rules are not common sense" The rest just confused me.

Common sense would also say the guy kneeling in front is wounded if he gives "cover" to the guy behind him. Let's not even talk about common sense dictating what would happen when the wound "covered" was dealt by a rocket launcher/tank shell/mass volley of fire.

Not that that is here or there. . .

Yea yea, my aim was spoiled so I shot high. . . riiiiight. Kneeling folks are oooh so quick and confusing!