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The D6 Generation Episode 11: WM/Hordes Team Tourney Report, Mulling Mechanics, When Wives Attack  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
[DCM]
Gun Mage






New Hampshire, USA

In Episode 11 we discuss our adventures at the New England Warmachine & Hordes team tournament held at Danger Planet games in Waltham, MA. Quite a few other segments this episode:

- Mulling Mechanics: Tournaments
- When Wives Attack
- Off the Table
- The Hollywood Minute
- & More

To check out the episode visit:

http://www.TheD6Generation.com



Thread about prior episodes:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/213772.page

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2008/07/26 04:55:57


 
   
Made in ie
Ravager




Really enjoyed the episode again, I got the feeling that Craig's did-you-ever-notice piece was very heartfelt after the weekend tourney!

One thing though, you mentioned people running down the clock in tourneys as part of the meta-gaming discussion, but Russ described that as 'being matrix gamered'. I've had it done to me in a GT by an opponent with a shooty army against my close-range shooty/assault army. I got the impression he really didn't want us to get to the later turns of the game where I'd have reached him. 2 hours 30 for his turns, 30 minutes for mine and we only made it to turn 4 of 6! It was the most annoying game of anything I have ever played.

but, Hey! I've grown fond of that matrix gamer tag, it so perfectly describes those of us who always see the mechanics and the maths behind our games. Not by choice in any way, but, because those sort of things just instantly appear in our heads. In mine anyway. I can't ignore them anymore than I can not think about an elephant if someone tells me not to think about elephants

I'm only calling foul here because it's the best way of describing my end of the gamer spectrum that I've heard yet. Don't change the meaning to be mean-spirited asses

Unless of course that was always the meaning and I just didn't realise!

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2008/07/14 16:24:22


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Gun Mage






New Hampshire, USA

quozl wrote:One thing though, you mentioned people running down the clock in tourneys as part of the meta-gaming discussion, but Russ described that as 'being matrix gamered'. I've had it done to me in a GT by an opponent with a shooty army against my close-range shooty/assault army. I got the impression he really didn't want us to get to the later turns of the game where I'd have reached him. 2 hours 30 for his turns, 30 minutes for mine and we only made it to turn 4 of 6! It was the most annoying game of anything I have ever played.


I think it might have been "Hollywood" who lumped this form of meta-gaming in with "Matrix Gamers", but I agree, I'd say they are part of a different category.

To your point, I also found this VERY annoying back in my GW days as I played Orks and often times at tourneys I'd run into the exact same issue you described. Early game armies would delay to make it harder for late game armies to get their turns in.

The chess clock is the ultimate answer to this issue, IMHO.

 
   
Made in ie
Ravager




Oops, it was Raef, brain-cramp! I was translating from Hollywood in my head

I also really liked the red-card idea suggested. I don't generally like sportsmanship scores, because even if people aren't being asses, some people will give a 10 to a nice guy, some will give a 8, as a 10 is saved for the day that Nelson Mandela starts playing miniature games!. It's too random (as you mentioned).

The red card system sounds like a good way to punish the truely unpleasant, without adding any more randomness to scoring.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/07/14 17:10:08


 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Philadelphia

First I actually love the long episodes. Came in handy again as I had a long flight from Houson to Philly and the episode got me all the way through it!

Loved both the review of the tourney and the discussion of tourney mechanics. Having run a few tourneys during my short stint as a store owner, I definitely understand how much goes into it. I think you guys did a great job covering it from all angels.

I also liked the 'red card' idea, allways hated soft scores and that seems like a way to avoid them without allowing frak heads like Craigs third opponent from runining everyones day.

Kudos for managing to get the wifes in front of a microphone as well, no easy task my brother!

Big Troy, The Samurai Gunslinger of South Philly

Dystopian Wars fleets: KoB, EotBS, Prussian, FSA
Firestorm Armada Fleets: Sorellian

Current 5th ed WL record
Salamander Marines 22-3(Local) GT Circuit 2-0-1
Mech Vet Guard 54-8-4 (local) 5-1 Ard Boyz


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut







Thanks for another brilliant episode, guys, very fun to listen to. You know what would be cool for those of us who haven't jumped into P Press games yet would be a Hordesmachine primer... Don't know if that's something you guys would be into, but just a 5 - 10 minute overview would be cool...

My heart goes out to Craig... I've been to tournaments that made me want to get rid of all my stuff. It usually makes the games I play with my friends better, however, as I appreciate playing with gentlemen rather than jerks. After a few weeks I've usually recouped and feel like getting my list crushed again and sign up for another one. I hope you'll give it another shot, even if you don't want to make Hordesmachine tournaments a staple of your gaming life, just so that your last experience with PP tournaments isn't so negative. End on a better note, as it were.

When wives attack... very funny stuff. I've found that the secret to getting my wife to roleplay/paint my minis/etc. is chocolate. Lots of chocolate.


   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Philadelphia

That actually reminds me of something I wanted to point out. As much as these guys are annoying sometimes it’s really worth while to have the tourney organizer take them asisde for a bit and explain things to them.

A long time ago, in my first organized tourney, I was one of those guys. A military veteran with a massive ego and a win at all costs atitude I got from the 82nd made me a real miserable opponent for everyone. Adding in my physical size, I must have just ruined the experience for all three of my opponents.

What happened though was that one of the organizers asked me over and suggested that I should give up my Second place award because I had apparently reduced my last opponent, a nice kid in his mid teens to tears. It really changed my outlook and I have been an example of sportsmanship ever since.

Obviously most of these guys are just socialy maladjusted misfits, but a signifigant number may simply not realize they are taking away from the experience and need to be shown the light.

Just a thought from a former frak head

Big Troy, The Samurai Gunslinger of South Philly

Dystopian Wars fleets: KoB, EotBS, Prussian, FSA
Firestorm Armada Fleets: Sorellian

Current 5th ed WL record
Salamander Marines 22-3(Local) GT Circuit 2-0-1
Mech Vet Guard 54-8-4 (local) 5-1 Ard Boyz


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Gun Mage






New Hampshire, USA

nathonicus wrote:Thanks for another brilliant episode, guys, very fun to listen to. You know what would be cool for those of us who haven't jumped into P Press games yet would be a Hordesmachine primer... Don't know if that's something you guys would be into, but just a 5 - 10 minute overview would be cool...


It's a little deeper than a "Primer" but in episodes 5 & 6 we get REAL deep into Warmachine, here's a list of all the shows, just scroll down:

http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_category=D6G%20Podcast


There is a Hordes episode coming, it's just a matter of when.

I find the games (WM/Hordes) difficult to sum up quickly, as they are so different from most other miniature war games.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut







Well... wouldja look at that? I know what I'm doing after lunch!

Thanks.

bigtmac68 wrote:
Obviously most of these guys are just socialy maladjusted misfits, but a signifigant number may simply not realize they are taking away from the experience and need to be shown the light.


You know, it's good that you point this out, as a lot of people really just don't know any better and could become good players and opponents if they just had their eyes opened.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/07/14 19:48:15


   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




Melbourne Australia

Another great show guys/gals, I’ve been board gaming I bet for longer than many of the site members have been on earth, so I love that part of the show. I’m and old boy who is giving serious consideration to starting war gaming for the first time so I’m getting a lot of good info from the show.
Must admit the whole concept of painting stuff is quite daunting and might be a barrier to entry for me, anyway, keep up the good work,
Ooo roo

p.s. Australian Itunes review submitted just now, plus a bid for the next show

"We have forced every sea and land to be the highway of our daring, and everywhere, whether for evil or for good, have left imperishable monuments behind us."
Pericles' Funeral Oration  
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Started listening, but stopped. I needed my beauty rest.

I'll give it another go today, as I wanted to hear all about
the tournament.

bigmac: Glad to hear you were converted. I myself don't
know how I'd act in a tournament as I've never played in
one. The local Fantasy tourneys seem to spread themselves
across entire weekends and I'm not all that interested in
giving up that much time for a tourney.

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
Despised Traitorous Cultist



The Warp

Another enjoyable show and the humor was not "too horrible" . I don't do tournaments and prefer friendly games between like-minded players but still found the mulling mechanics section interesting. WWA was also amusing. Fortunately, my wife understands the need for "cave-time" although she will roll her eyes when large packages from from The War Store or Forgeworld show up at the door.

BTW, any chance we'll hear a review of Battle Lore?

Keep up the good work.

Hugh the Aussie wrote: I’m and old boy who is giving serious consideration to starting war gaming for the first time


As an another "old boy" dragged into the hobby by my kids it is my duty to warn you there is no end once you start. Not that that is a bad thing ........

The D6G: Helping to empty my wallet since February 2008. 
   
Made in us
Unbalanced Fanatic






Chicago, IL

I just finished the episode this morning. I loved the amount of content you put into the episode, all of it was top notch. I have one this to say though.

I just wish you had split it into multiple episodes. 2hr40mins is a very long time, almost 3 trips on the train to the office for me. I'd loved it more if you had split it into two episodes. You had enough content for two, esp. if the discussion of tourney prep and organization was it's own episode. You could use it as a reference. That also allows you to spread out your content over two weeks instead of just one week.

Just a thought.

Finished 3rd Co Starting First Company

Arbites
DS:70+S+G+MB+IPw40k03#++D++A++/wWD280R+++T(D)DM++
Adepticon TT Headhunter 2008 1-800-INQUISITION 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Another great episode in the back. Loved the "Gamers' Wives" segment and can't wait for more! Maybe they can give us a clue as to why "Real Women Don't Wargame". A conundrum that has been puzzling me for a long time now!

I have one request: I have tried to submit an iTunes review. I even downloaded and installed iTunes specifically for the purpose (I actually listen to the podcast on my mobile phone), But it seems to be some arcane art, and totally impossible for middle-aged laymen like myself to master!

Anyone out there who can give me a clue as to how to submit an iTunes review?
   
Made in ie
Ravager




Check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVfatTZpZAQ

It's a podcasting lady walking you through how to leave a review. I found it via google. My pod-casting tastes aren't THAT eclectic.

I can't leave one as I don't have iTunes, or a windows/apple pc, and I don't think I can leave a review via the itunes web-site.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut







About halfway through. Sorry to hear about Craig's bad
tournament draws. I'm guessing that the merc army build
was the advanced deploy fast moving Shae list? I play
shooty Bart, so that's the only other list I've heard of.


DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in ie
Ravager




It sounded like a Shae bum rush list for sure.

I got the impression that Craig felt that there was excessive power creep and that that new army was over-powered compared to his own.

I'd guess that's more a combination of it being completely new to him (and a pretty un-straight forward army, with lots of stacking effects), and his opponent being a complete ass and breaking his spirit (we've all been there sadly)

The Shae bum rush is good, but, it's no better than some prime caster lists involving Kreoss, or Vlad, or maybe sorscha (though 2 of those 3 would be pretty poor against the pirates thanks to grogspar). It's not as scarey to me as eVlad, Krueger, the testament - not prime casters but a few years old now.

If you've no way of getting to the solos it can be a struggle, but, I've played against that list at least 10 times now between friendly and tourney games and I've found it gets easier and easier. I'm sure that Craig would find a way around them if he hadn't just been put off trying by his lame opponent.

My personal favourite methods have been to run 3 of my cleansers into .5000001" of my opponents crucial seadogs or pressgangers, and then shoot 2 of the cleansers in the back with Eiryss, Kell, or my own Aiyanna and Holt. 7" circle of dead sea-dogs. If they're tough and live then they're on fire. If they lose their sea-dog units they're hosed.

Eiryss standing still hits a cleanser in the back, in melee, on a 5 Without needing line of sight.

Or fire redeemers at their solos from 16" away. Deviations kill A+H, Hawk, Doc, Rockbottom.

My Circle have plenty of ways to deal with them too. My own mercs would probably have the hardest time of it, but, they'd have a fair chance still.

I really think it was just the opponent, not the list, so I'm glad Craig didn't sell his armies. Though with 5th ed 40K out now, maybe it'd make no difference to how many games of warmachine he plays anyway!

[edit] I just double-checked what army Craig plays and it's the trollbloods. I don't play with them, just against them (a lot), but they're completely lacking in aoe's. Maybe that's part of the issue. I wouldn't know where to start with a trollblood army against Shae's pirates :(

Weirdly, I'd think kriel warriors could be good for surviving a charge with 4+ tough with the UA, and then killing sea-dogs back with their 2 attacks and war-cry. You'd want to be careful to avoid getting too many press-ganged though

Champs could kill them but I don't think they'd get to. The pirates have a much better charge range and would kill champs while acting under Hawk's 'object of desire'. So I don't see champs doing it.

Any trollblood players with experience against the pirates got some proper advice for Craig? Or did Craig play a different army? [/edit]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/07/18 10:02:16


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Manchester NH USA

Another Fun Show 'Craig's pain is my pain" it was a flash back to why I stopped 40K, but glad to help him recover thru a freindly game/demo of AT-43 if he likes.....
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut







Thanks folks. Your support is . . . daunting.

I do, in fact, believe that WM/H is creeping, and that the era of the 'you only need one book!' marketing scheme is WAY in the past if you want to have a chance to win.

For the record I believe they were sea dogs and press gangers. lots of them. I don't even know who is caster was, as he beat me with those four units and the solos. There were two or three jacks and 3 cannons that never even saw light of battle.

Thanks for the kind words on WWA, also. Nicole and Karen were very excited to take part, and are looking forward to future segments.

I'm composing my preemptive defenses as we speak.

And thanks for the invite, Gordo. i thought Russ was putting that together?

~Craig


Far-stretching, endless Time
Brings forth all hidden things,
And buries that which once did shine.
The firm resolve falters, the sacred oath is shattered;
And let none say, "It cannot happen here".

Sophocles
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Manchester NH USA

Master-Terraformer wrote:Thanks folks. Your support is . . . daunting.

And thanks for the invite, Gordo. i thought Russ was putting that together?

~Craig



The first Monday of each month a couple of us meet (some you know, Russ Vickery & Keith) for some AT43 I have 2500 pnts of each army so you can try any army you'd like Ive emailed "the big R" and mentioned inviting/welcoming you guys over to "the club house" for some good exposure to the game knowing how excitable he is maybe a more direct invite may get you & Reaf down for some fun ..LOL
I know Tuesday is your normal day so if a better day/time is needed (other than that monday)contact me we'll set something up!
Gordon
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut







Sounds good, Gordon. Let me see what's up with Russ. With my campaign and some extra work I'm doing for school my time's at a premium currently, but hopefully we can pull something together.

~c

Far-stretching, endless Time
Brings forth all hidden things,
And buries that which once did shine.
The firm resolve falters, the sacred oath is shattered;
And let none say, "It cannot happen here".

Sophocles
 
   
Made in gb
Huntsman




Oxford, UK

Nice show, guys. Glad I'm getting value for my money.

One thing I wanted to mention about the VP system in tournaments. Since my only tournament experience is with Confrontation at the moment, it's the only version I know and I find it works really well. In the tournaments I have played sofar, each scenario has 3 Victory points, and usually both players have plenty of opportunities to go for those points. It's hard to describe properly without going into details on the separate scenarios, but quite often it can hang until the last round to see who is going to pick up which points. The other side of scoring comes from number of AP destroyed, number of AP lost and bonus points for certain objectives.

BTW, is 'When Wives Attack' going to be a regular feature? I'd bid on that for sure.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The problem with competitive WM/Hordes is that unless you play ALOT, you don't know all the new tricks and combos to watch out for. And that's why I've really stopped playing it.

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
 
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