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HQ

Eldrad Ulthran 210

Avatar 155

ELITES

*6 Fire Dragons, Waveserpent, twin cannons, spirit stones, vectored engines 226

*7 Howling Banshes, *1 Exarch, Executioner, acrobat, Waveserpent, twin cannons, spirit stones, vectored engines 285

*6 Arlequins (all with kiss), *1 Shadow seer (with kiss) 184

TROOPS

*10 Wraithguard, *1 lock, conceal 390

*8 Dire Avengers, *1 Exarch, dual cats, bladestorm 140

* 6 Pathfinders 144

* 3 Jetbikes 66

HEAVY SUPPORT

*1 Wraithlord, wraithsword 100

*1 Wraithlord, wraithsword 100

The thing is i got a strong centre with 11 T6 guys and 2 T8 guys having fortuned probably the avatar and the WG unit or maybe a WL.

I also have 3 jetbikes, which is not great, but my be an objective graber on the last turn if kept in save, and are only 66 points.

Pathfinders depending on deployment and mision can just come in outrunning of just deploy infiltrating

The Avenders can stay in cover, walk with my strong centre behing WG for cover or well just as necesary.

Arlequins will either go on their own hunting stuff or on the centre for a countercharge in case too many people charge arround them.

The banshes will go hunting heavy weapon units, rangers, infiltrators, Deep strikers....

And the fire dragons well go shooting.

How do you like this list?

This army lacks in the anti tank department.
The Wraithlords should be given two heavy weapons.

if they are given 2 heavy weapons, they wont be runing towars the tanks to blow them, Fire dragon will be more efective.

I give them lets say bright lance and EML, thats 65 points, the EML wont do a scratch on tanks such a LR, monolith, and almos nothing to AV13 tanks.

The bright lance is going to to have a chance of 1/13.5 of destroying a vehicle, which is not that great, guided goes dont to 1/10 so with 2 of this guys my chances of destroyuing a vehicle with one bright lance each is 1/5 guiding both of them.

if they assault a vechicle they get almost 1/2 each which is a better chance, and the chance gets better agains lower AV vechicles at a bigger rate than firing.

then we have 10 WG, which guided if they get too shoot blows up almos anything.

i Know i lack long range, but still, do you really think that a long range of 2 bright lances will do the job? 4 maybe, but thats 160 points

The army as a whole seems to lack any unifying concept at all, lacks anti-tank, etc. I'd scrap the list completely and start over from scratch.

Think about what you want your army's strengths to be and work from there.

what do you men by unifying?

i got a strong centre and then the movile part.

That list is all over the place, what were you going for? Balance, shooty, assult what? Also what psyker were you gonna have with the wraithlords because if they don't have a psyker they don't do much. I agree with above comments you deperately need anti tank a MEQ list will walk all over this.

Please consider revising-------> i.e. less random units and more over all synergy and "theme".

ok lets see do you like this better

* HQ

Eldrad Ulthran 210

Avatar 155

ELITES

*5 Wraithguard, *1 lock, conceal, spear, Waveserpent, twin cannons, spirit stones, vectored engines 348

*8 Howling Banshes, *1 Exarch, Executioner, acrobat, Waveserpent, twin cannons, spirit stones, vectored engines 301

*8 Arlequins (all with kiss), *1 Shadow seer (with kiss) 228

TROOPS

*8 Dire Avengers, *1 Exarch, dual cats, bladestorm 140

*8 Dire Avengers, *1 Exarch, PW and shield, bladestorm 150

* 6 Pathfinders 144

* 3 Jetbikes 66

HEAVY SUPPORT

*1 Wraithlord, wraithsword 100

*1 Wraithlord, BL, EML 155

I actually think this is even weaker, dont know what to say

Try something like this. It's kinda a theme army, using some aspects with the avatar, and it's kinda fun to play.

HQ -
Avatar

TROOP -
Dire Avengers (10)
Wave Serphent w/Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones

Dire Avengers (10)
Wave Serphent w/Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones

ELITE -

Harlys (6)
6 x Kiss

Banshees (10)
Wave Serphent w/Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones

Fire Dragons (6)
Wave Serphent w/Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones

HEAVY -
Falcon w/Pulse Laser, Missle Launcher
Spirit Stones, and Halo Field

Wraithlord w/ (whatever you may want)

Wraithlord w/ (whatever you may want)

Like I said. It's a theme list for the King. It's fun to play, and no one will call cheese on it.. up to you. Hope I helped some

I don't really like the list. You don't have enough reliable troops to capture objectives, and you really hope you get into CC with this army. You will get shot to bits by many even lukewarm armies, especially of the 2k variety. Work on it some.

EDIT:
I like the second list better, but you still need anti-tank. Also, if you give one of the DA squads' Exarch a Power weapon and Shimmersheild, you may as well give them Defend instead of bladestorm. That gives the unit some real staying power in CC.

its i nice list but i dont have that many tanks :p plus just 2 troops that is going to have ever harder to win, how about this last option?

Eldrad Ulthran 210

Avatar 155

ELITES

*6 Fire Dragons, Waveserpent, twin cannons, spirit stones 206

*8 Howling Banshes, *1 Exarch, Executioner, acrobat, Waveserpent, twin cannons, spirit stones, vectored engines 301

*6 Arlequins (all with kiss), *1 Shadow seer (with kiss) 184

TROOPS

*10 Wraithguard, *1 farseer, conceal 396

*8 Dire Avengers, *1 Exarch, PW and shield, bladestorm 150

*9 Dire Avengers, *1 Exarch, dual cats, bladestorm 152

* 5 Pathfinders 120


HEAVY SUPPORT

*1 Wraithlord, wraithsword EML 125

Hmmm... one of the main problems with the last version is that Ulthran takes up a big portion of the army, but I can't really envision a purpose why you might need him there. Ulthran is good mainly for shooting armies, because of the sheer number of Psychic Abilities he can use to aid them. As for this army, I don't see the good he can do, realistically. I say scratch the whole concept, and start again.

i will be refering to the last list posted.

it needs a lot of work to make it good ('good' being a relative term because what may be 'good' at a flgs probabaly wont be 'good' at a tournament.)

your fire dragons, if their transport doesnt get blown up on the first turn (if i were playing you id shoot it with all the anti-tank i have until its dead), will pop one tank and then get shot/charged to pieces. they wont survive long enough to kill another.

your banshees will deploy our from their transport and get rapid fired to death.

your pathfinders will sit on an objective as they are meant to do.

after your 2 fast elements are dead it will shoot your army at my leasure, finishing with your wraithlord which will do very little all game.

this list wont win you any games against a decent opponent with a decent list.


wraithlords should have guns. wraithswords are a waste of points.

walking DA will get shot before they can shoot anything.

your wraithguard will be ignored until they can be dealt with.


you need more anti-tank

you should have at least 2 wraithlords /w an EML + a Brightlance AND fire dragons. they probably still wont be enough.

at 2000pts you will get destroyed by every army under the sun.

Burning Star IV wrote:Hmmm... one of the main problems with the last version is that Ulthran takes up a big portion of the army, but I can't really envision a purpose why you might need him there. Ulthran is good mainly for shooting armies, because of the sheer number of Psychic Abilities he can use to aid them. As for this army, I don't see the good he can do, realistically. I say scratch the whole concept, and start again.

So just because of eldrad you would start the list from scratch, but i know im going to add WL, DA, Banshees, .... Eldrad is not only for shooting, he can go in the centre fortunind units, guiding the WG when needed and dooming for the charge

Regwon wrote:i will be refering to the last list posted.

it needs a lot of work to make it good ('good' being a relative term because what may be 'good' at a flgs probabaly wont be 'good' at a tournament.)

your fire dragons, if their transport doesnt get blown up on the first turn (if i were playing you id shoot it with all the anti-tank i have until its dead), will pop one tank and then get shot/charged to pieces. they wont survive long enough to kill another.

your banshees will deploy our from their transport and get rapid fired to death.

So on your opinion Eldars should play without tanks?

your pathfinders will sit on an objective as they are meant to do.

ok

after your 2 fast elements are dead it will shoot your army at my leasure, finishing with your wraithlord which will do very little all game.

this list wont win you any games against a decent opponent with a decent list.


wraithlords should have guns. wraithswords are a waste of points.

walking DA will get shot before they can shoot anything.

Ok so walking DA are going to get shoot, ok, but if you put them in a serpent, recalling your previous argument, serpent will get shoot too and then de DA, so is no good unit either.

your wraithguard will be ignored until they can be dealt with.

So for you another unit which is no good.

you need more anti-tank


you should have at least 2 wraithlords /w an EML + a Brightlance AND fire dragons. they probably still wont be enough.

Here i agree with you, but how much more antitank can a i get a BL? another WG with another BL? just 2 Heavy AT weapones, if you have played eldar ever or againts them, i doubt you dont see mainly fire dragons as main antitank weapon. If thtas not enough what should eldar do?

Can you show me what a good list will be for you? since you dont like DA, WG, serpents, fire dragon....


In generall i know the army lacks some good long range antitank, but with the new changes made to skimmers, I think all eldar and going to go low on antitank, i dont see Falcons or prismas any good since they can get blow easily, so you can either go with 3 bright lances, which on 5th have gone down since now at 4's on AV 12+ you cant destroy, you will only destroy at 5+,(same goes for most AT weapons, but at least S9 and S10 weapon can kill AV12-13 easier, so i dont see anymore long range AT so good for any army unless you can get A high long range fire quantity, which eldar actually cant cheap enough or resilient enough)

kaintxu wrote: <snip>

you either have not read what ive said or have not understood it.

eldar tanks are amoungst the best in the game (waveserpents arent tanks proper, but thats a moot point). the thing is you only have 2, one of which is an immediate thread, one of which isnt. you firedragons bother me because when they deploy they will shoot my stuff with melta guns, so i have to deal with then immediately. their serpent will be the focus of all my anti-tank fire until it is dead.

when your banshees deploy from your serpent they wont be able to charge me immediately and theire shooting is next to nothing. where ever they deploy i will be able to shoot them, and shoot them i will, until they are either dead or broken.

now both banshees and firedragons are good choices for eldar armies, but they way you are planning to use them is not. it is not my opinion that eldar should play without tanks, it is that your list isnt good enough to justify their inclusion.

Dire Avengers arent good. footslogging they will have no effect. in serpents they are better but still not good enough.

yes a naked wraithlord is not a good unit for you (it is good for me because im your opponent.)


to make your fast elemets effective you need to make them all an equal threat. firedragons in a serpent are better than banshees in a serpent. if you have 2 one will get shot, but one will be able to deliver the goods and kill something before the dragons die.

guardians with weapon platforms are better for holding objectives than DA, path finders better still. remember you dont need to capture your opponents objectives to win, only contest them and hold your own.

your warithguard need to change. one unit isnt enough of a tarpit, or fire-sink to make it effective. one unit of wraithguard can be ignored until it can be dealth with. 2 units is much scarier.

both your serpents should have bright lances, your infantry can deal with other infantry (harlies ftw)

you will need at least 2 wraithlord with ELMs+BLs in addition to the dragons and the serpents.


it seems youve tried to build a Iyanden list without really understanding the principles of what makes it good.

when you do rebuild your list, re-do it completely from the ground up.

DA I like, maybe you dont, but they pretty much do the work againts almost anything, plus people doesnt shoot at them that often, and if you can rapid fire them, that means they have been able to bladestorm your unit.

Since when are Guardiand with platforms better at holding objectives? you mean because of a lock with conceal? which size should it be to be effective? the lock with conceal is 40 points, plus the BL another 30, thats just 70 how many guys to drop 15? thats another 120 points, you have a 190 point unit in WS 3, BS 3 and T3 unit which when gets assaulted is going to die

WL with EML + BL is what i currently use, but are not that effective and now when i start playing 5th, will be even less effective.

You advice is 2 units of 10 WG = 800 points + 2 units of dragons on WS = 400 + 10 banshes on serpent = 301 points, thats 1500 points, +2 WL = 300 points 1800, that way you either go low on HQ or low on troops, you have 3 WS which is good with 2 dragon unit to blow up tanks, which is good, but your really low on other stuff, for instance you cant keep fortuned the 2 WG unit

kaintxu wrote:
Eldrad Ulthran 210
Avatar 155
*6 Fire Dragons, Waveserpent, twin cannons, spirit stones, vectored engines 226
*7 Howling Banshes, *1 Exarch, Executioner, acrobat, Waveserpent, twin cannons, spirit stones, vectored engines 285
*6 Arlequins (all with kiss), *1 Shadow seer (with kiss) 184
*10 Wraithguard, *1 lock, conceal 390
*8 Dire Avengers, *1 Exarch, dual cats, bladestorm 140
* 6 Pathfinders 144
* 3 Jetbikes 66
*1 Wraithlord, wraithsword 100
*1 Wraithlord, wraithsword 100

Funny enough dispite the rest of the nay saying, I think this list could be really good. Lets look at how.

First off, your center would be a front line of 10 concealed wraithguard with Eldrad fortuning them to make them well neigh invincible. Other eldar players and possibly IG are about the only armies out there that could possibly field enough high strength, long range fire power to deal with this unit effectively. Directly behind them you run the dire avengers. This will ensure that the avengers have 4+ cover all the time since anything that wants to shoot at them will have to shoot pas the wraith guard. To this end, you'll probably need to arc the wraithguard formation a bit so that it isn't too easy to move around the sides and get to the avengers. Remember being behind the wraithguard also means anything the avengers shoot at will get a 4+ cover save too so watch it if you are trying to blaze up lightly armored targets. Then behind/near/around the avengers you can have the quins. The purpose of them will be to clear out anything that tries to tie up the wraithguard in hand to hand. Be careful about their placement since stray templates could endanger them. Also make sure they dodge back into / behind the formation if transports start moving up towards you. In the middle of all of this, you can have your avatar to ensure everything stays fearless and to add extra hand to hand support. When you are moving this monolithic glob of units, make sure you are careful about which units you run in what order. You will need to make sure the wraithguard run before anything else since they will need to always be in front. Other units can then run around behind them as necessary. Just keep in mind that you can't move though friendly models (although you can move though friendly units if there is space for your base to fit between their members).

The pathfinders will be best used if they are set up in your deployment zone on top of (within capturing distance) of any objectives that might be back there and in hard cover. They can then just sit there and hold your back field for the game. If you are playing kill points and there are no objectives, then again just deploy in your deployment zone in hard cover and have fun shooting.

The dreadnaughts will probably be best set up as flank guards along your main formation. Put one on each side of your center formation and they should be able to deal with (or at least tie up) anything that comes down the sides at you. Just try to keep them out of the way of las cannons and power fists if possible since these are really what pose the most threat to them. Oh yah, and don't forget they have twin flamers. Use them.

Your jetbikes should probably be kept in your back field till turn 5 or so. Back there they should be fairly safe and they can provide support for your pathfinders should anything show up back there (deep strikers or flankers). On turn 5 (or 6 depending on battle conditions) you can turbo boost them towards uncontested objectives. If there are no objectives that your opponent doesn't contest, then you can zoom them around to contest any that your opponent may control.

The fire dragons should zoom around and go tank / terminator / monstrous creature hunting as battlefield conditions permit. Decide where they are the most likely to be of use and then work on getting them there. You may have to hold them back for a turn to get the rest of your army rolling before you send them out, but again that's going to be determined by what's happening on the field.

The banshees are set up perfectly to be a good emergency response unit. They can fly around to where ever they are most likely to do some good. This may be zooming into the enemy deployment zone to take out heavy weapon squads, or it might be dealing with a squad of marines that came down a flank in a rhino, or something else entirely. The point of the matter is that they can be your wild card unit for putting out fires when something doesn't quite go the way you planned.

All in all the army looks fairly sound if played correctly. You have a rock hard center that's going to take some work the cut down. The wraithguard will last forever and the avengers will have to be gunned down to the last man though 4+ cover. The harlequins and the banshees make a solid hand to hand core not to mention the backup of 3 monstrous creatures. The mounted fire dragons and the wraithguard give you tons of anti tank (not to mention the hand to hand abilities of 3 monstrous creatures, and 2 witch blade armed seers). You have 4 solid to fairly solid troop units (the bikes are a bit weak but they fit a role so no worries) so getting to and holding objectives shouldn't be an issue.

There are only a couple of potential flaws I see in the list. One is that you lack any long range anti tank power. While this will not be too much of an issue since you have plenty of short range anti tank, it could get a little sticky if you go up against an elder skimmer list. The second is that your back field could be vulnerable. If drop pods show up with flamers, your pathfinders are toast and your bikes are not going to be able to hold things. The banshees can be sent that way to help clear things out, but it could be problematic. Your center formation shouldn’t have much difficulty with deep strikers. While they could get in and do some damage to the dire avengers or quin units (depending on where they land) they won’t live though the following turn of return fire / assault so it’s unlikely the trade will come out too badly for you.

I think the list could be fairly successful. Don’t be afraid to try it out and see how it goes.

I really agree with pheonix on this one, I was commenting on this guys list on warseer and people seem to be giving it more hate here than constructive criticism but whatever.

I always build my eldar around 10 wraithguard and an avatar and play a very similar list minus the dire avengers and dragons, both of which are always a great addition to any army.

If anything, I'd probably try to move some points around to try and get at least an EML on both wraithlords and maybe on the wave serpents too. You can drop the second cannon and the jetbike squad for those extra points easily and maybe spend some extra points if any on exarchs/upgrades. This should give you 2 bs 4 EML and 2 bs3 twin linked ones which is really good ranged firepower if you ask me! We all know how good the EML is against hordes and meqs/tanks and they are so cheap these days why not? You don't need any brightlances really since the fire dragons can handle any tanks for the most part and you can always zoom to get side armor with the wave serpents to begin with. Heck, eldrich storm might be fun to cast too just to see if you can get lucky and turn the vehicle in a favorable direction =).

I really agree with Mortetvie, more EML = more good.

kaintxu wrote:
Eldrad Ulthran 210
Avatar 155
*6 Fire Dragons, Waveserpent, twin cannons, spirit stones, vectored engines 226
*7 Howling Banshes, *1 Exarch, Executioner, acrobat, Waveserpent, twin cannons, spirit stones, vectored engines 285
*6 Arlequins (all with kiss), *1 Shadow seer (with kiss) 184
*10 Wraithguard, *1 lock, conceal 390
*8 Dire Avengers, *1 Exarch, dual cats, bladestorm 140
* 6 Pathfinders 144
* 3 Jetbikes 66
*1 Wraithlord, wraithsword 100
*1 Wraithlord, wraithsword 100

Perhaps not completely scrap the concept, as I said before, but this list seems like it has a lot of holes in it. Someone above me said that this isn't the right list for Wave Serpents, and I have to agree. You only have two tanks on the board, and as neither of them have (or have the option to have) holo-fields, you aren't looking so good in that department. You can rely on your Wave Serpents to do precious little anyways, as all they are packing is Shuriken Cannons (not bad by any stretch, but you could get more use out of some Bright Lances or MLs). The Banshees are fragile in close combat, but they can deal with heavy armor, which is good, but also not entirely needed because of your Avatar, Wraithlords, and Fire Dragons. Perhaps consider Scorpions, which can put out a higher number of high-strength attacks, and can infiltrate to boot!

As for the Wraithguard, my feelings are mixed on them. You will have to hope they don't get charged by something, because they can put out at most 10 attacks (if you discount the Warlock, but that isn't much either). They will likely get 1 turn of shooting, 2 on a good day, but whatever they fire on will be devastated. If they do end up getting charged, you'll have to dedicate some of your more skilled CC units to the fray, which means the Wraithguard will need constant babysitting.

I think it's a paltry excuse to say that most people don't shoot at Dire Avengers, as you don't know that, and that they are a serious threat shooting-wise to lightly armored infantry which any opponent would like to see in the dead pile. I would suggest giving them Defend and giving the Exarch a PW/Shimmershield, which gives them more staying power in CC. This may lessen their "table presence," if that's what you're looking for, but I prefer that setup anyways.

Pathfinders are an excellent choice, but they are in trouble if anything decides to go after them. While you may retort this with a, "Well that's good, that means less pressure on my other troops," you must remember that your opponent has 1850 points to work with, and finding something to deal with the Pathfinders shouldn't be too much of a problem.

You caught a soft spot with me, I like Jetbikes, but I think you'd need more in this list to make them justifiable.

The Wraithlords, in this list, are probably ideally suited to the babysitter role for the Wraithguard. They can't dish out enough attacks by themselves, but if you use both of them to support the WG unit, I think you might be able to justify their presence.

Again, I don't really like this list, but it isn't my list to work with, so do whatever you please with it.

Um, I would venture to guess that EVERY army list has a few holes. I think your problems with this list are based on a bias if anything so meh. The list solid, it has everything it needs to deal with anything someone could throw at it-if it adds the EMLs I was suggesting =).

It just has to work harder against certain armies and in the new rules even just one wave serpent is pretty survivable- the thing is with so many wraithguard, wraithlords and an avatar you HAVE to either shoot anti tank at the wave serpents or the wraith units/avatar to do any damage. There is still a wide variety of hard targets to distract big guns from the WS.

Also, babysitting the wraithguard? I beleive the word is synergyzing.

Eldar = synergy. More than any other army. That is the key to winning with Eldar.

First off, Banshees, Dragons, and Dire Avengers really dont need Exarchs. Why? Because they are extra points and offer really nothing else the unit didn't have already.

Banshee Exarch. Okay, the unit may counter charge, guess what, all units do that now. WS becomes 1 if you fail a moral check. So the unit needs 5's to hit you. Big problem is most units now either are fearless or are asumed to pass any checks called upon to make.

Dragon Exarch. HOLY CRAP A 18" MELTA??? Big deal, you still only get the added D6 if you are within 6"... Might as well be a regular fusion gun. Fast shot, one added shot for almost 30pts? Okay, if you wanna waist that go ahead. And Crack shot. So no cover save..... Hummmm.. I dont think I really like this one because most tanks that sit still... wont get a cover save..

Avenger Exarch. Shimmershield is good. But T3 will still get hit by regular CCW and you still take as many wounds. Defend is great, but again, I'd just run a regular squad into you and force the number game. Bladestorm is great. You get an extra shot, but cant shoot next turn. So you either move to adjust your unit, or chage. Either way, it's almost a waiste. Either the unit can catch you, or the unit will just move to where they can, or you cant.

@Darrian13, Yes, synergy is the key with Eldar. You have to use your speed in order to shock the other player. You have to bear down on him with enough preasure, that you cause him to make mistakes.

4 Wave Serphents packing a unit of Dragons, 2x Avengers, and Banshees will cause him to choose between them. He can either take the Anti-tank out, the Objective holders, or the Anti-infantry. Either way, he'll give up soemthing he needed. Balance with Eldar is what makes them a hard army to beat. Learn to use your units to surport one another.

mortetvie wrote:If anything, I'd probably try to move some points around to try and get at least an EML on both wraithlords and maybe on the wave serpents too.

Darrian13 wrote:I really agree with Mortetvie, more EML = more good.

If you are going to put missile launchers into your army, I would start by putting them on the wave serpents (particularly the banshee’s serpent) first. The reason behind this is that the way you have your dreadnaughts configured, they are designed for hand to hand (or at least close up work). This means that speed will be important to them. In addition, you will want them moving along with your central forces, which will be spending the first couple of turns running up the board. If you want the dreadnaughts to keep up, they will have to be running too and if they are running, they can’t be shooting as well. The wave serpents, on the other hand, can move 12 and still fire all of their guns if they have a missile launcher.

Burning Star IV wrote: Someone above me said that this isn't the right list for Wave Serpents, and I have to agree. You only have two tanks on the board, and as neither of them have (or have the option to have) holo-fields, you aren't looking so good in that department. You can rely on your Wave Serpents to do precious little anyways, as all they are packing is Shuriken Cannons (not bad by any stretch, but you could get more use out of some Bright Lances or MLs).

First off, with 3 monstrous creatures, 2 AV12 vehicles, and 10 T6 3+ save wraith guard on the board, the enemy anti tank power is going to be stretched thin. I wouldn’t worry about the serpents going down too quickly. As for what the serpents do, they get foot troops to where they need to be…that’s their job. If they can do some damage too, so much the better. With just the basic cannons, the serpents are cheap. If you want to pile on some “real” guns, so much the better, but if you need the points for other things then the cheapy serpents are far from the worst things ever.

The Banshees are fragile in close combat, but they can deal with heavy armor, which is good, but also not entirely needed because of your Avatar, Wraithlords, and Fire Dragons. Perhaps consider Scorpions, which can put out a higher number of high-strength attacks, and can infiltrate to boot!

Infiltrating scorpions would be a bad idea in this list (and in my opinion, are a bad idea in most lists). Do you really want a unit that starts out closer to the enemy than your wraith guard? Probably not. Particularly one that’s easier to kill than your wraith guard are. Swapping out the banshees in the serpent for scorpions in a serpent would work though if you think they will work better for you. Personally, I find that banshees do a better job for me due to always striking first in the first round and having power weapons. However if you are seeing a lot less 3+ armor in your games or you find that banshees just don’t do it for you, scorpions are a viable option.

The other possibility would be to swap out the quins for scorpions and use them to back up the wraith guard when they get into hand to hand. I think the quins would be better suited to the role, however, particularly when eldard is around to doom their targets.

As for the Wraithguard, my feelings are mixed on them. You will have to hope they don't get charged by something, because they can put out at most 10 attacks (if you discount the Warlock, but that isn't much either). They will likely get 1 turn of shooting, 2 on a good day, but whatever they fire on will be devastated. If they do end up getting charged, you'll have to dedicate some of your more skilled CC units to the fray, which means the Wraithguard will need constant babysitting.

You do need a hand to hand unit to follow the wraith guard around, but that’s what the quins are for. They can stick around and more or less avoid taking any damage on the way in. The wraith guard, by their very short ranged nature, will end up in hand to hand. It’s a given. The thing is that they can do a number on whatever it is before they end up there. Then all you have to do is make sure you have a mop up unit there to finish off the hand to hand so the wraith guard don’t stay tied up forever. You can also use eldard to mind war any of those pesky power fists that might be comming in since they are what's really going to do a number on the wraith guard in hand to hand.

I think it's a paltry excuse to say that most people don't shoot at Dire Avengers, as you don't know that, and that they are a serious threat shooting-wise to lightly armored infantry which any opponent would like to see in the dead pile. I would suggest giving them Defend and giving the Exarch a PW/Shimmershield, which gives them more staying power in CC.

Your opponent will always have the option of shooting the avengers. However you will be doing the best you can to protect them by ensuring they have a screen of wraith guard giving them 4+ cover saves. That being said, the only way to give them more protection would be to put them in a wave serpent (and at this point there isn’t anywhere in the army you could get the points for that). So I think this configuration is the best its going to get. As far as defend and shimmershield go, they are great in some avenger setups, but they are not necessary in this configuration. The reason is simple. The avengers are going to be virtually surrounded by wraith guard and backed up by a squad of harlequins; the only reason they would ever end up in hand to hand combat would be if you charged them in yourself. While this is certainly an option, and if you want them to function as an additional hand to hand backup for the wraithguard, its possible, but for the most part, you are likely to be better off just keeping them out of melee.

Pathfinders are an excellent choice, but they are in trouble if anything decides to go after them.

Other than deep strikers, I’m having a hard time coming up with anything that could really threaten this unit. Anything else would have to move up the board around the rest of the army to get to them. Anything in a transport would have to have a flamer to do much since they wouldn’t be able to assault the turn they got there and shooting isn’t going to get though 2+ cover saves. The turn after that, the banshees fly over and make a mess of whatever showed up.

Phoenix you have really seen the use i plan to give all units, thats exactly how i had planned playing it.

Of course it lacks on stuff, but what doesnt?

A fast fire dragon, 2x avengers and banshe list, lucks resistance, is fast, yes, but lacks resistance.

TAU shooties? they lack HtH

so and so with many armies but space marines which are the "cheesest" armies around (and i dont mean overpowered but more like recieve the GW loving)

You guys have been comenting the first list i posted, what about this one?


Eldrad Ulthran 210

Avatar 155

ELITES

*6 Fire Dragons, Waveserpent, twin cannons, spirit stones 206

*8 Howling Banshes, *1 Exarch, Executioner, acrobat, Waveserpent, twin cannons, spirit stones, vectored engines 301

*6 Arlequins (all with kiss), *1 Shadow seer (with kiss) 184

TROOPS

*10 Wraithguard, *1 farseer, conceal 396

*8 Dire Avengers, *1 Exarch, PW and shield, bladestorm 150

*9 Dire Avengers, *1 Exarch, dual cats, bladestorm 152

* 5 Pathfinders 120


HEAVY SUPPORT

*1 Wraithlord, wraithsword EML 125

It drops 1 WL and the jetbikes for another 10 man avenger with PW and shield, an EML on one of the WL, 1 more bansee, the farseer which i needed because if not they dont count as troop choice

Silverwarrior88 wrote:First off, Banshees, Dragons, and Dire Avengers really dont need Exarchs. Why? Because they are extra points and offer really nothing else the unit didn't have already.

Banshee Exarch. Okay, the unit may counter charge, guess what, all units do that now. WS becomes 1 if you fail a moral check. So the unit needs 5's to hit you. Big problem is most units now either are fearless or are asumed to pass any checks called upon to make.

Dragon Exarch. HOLY CRAP A 18" MELTA??? Big deal, you still only get the added D6 if you are within 6"... Might as well be a regular fusion gun. Fast shot, one added shot for almost 30pts? Okay, if you wanna waist that go ahead. And Crack shot. So no cover save..... Hummmm.. I dont think I really like this one because most tanks that sit still... wont get a cover save..

Avenger Exarch. Shimmershield is good. But T3 will still get hit by regular CCW and you still take as many wounds. Defend is great, but again, I'd just run a regular squad into you and force the number game. Bladestorm is great. You get an extra shot, but cant shoot next turn. So you either move to adjust your unit, or chage. Either way, it's almost a waiste. Either the unit can catch you, or the unit will just move to where they can, or you cant.

@Darrian13, Yes, synergy is the key with Eldar. You have to use your speed in order to shock the other player. You have to bear down on him with enough preasure, that you cause him to make mistakes.

4 Wave Serphents packing a unit of Dragons, 2x Avengers, and Banshees will cause him to choose between them. He can either take the Anti-tank out, the Objective holders, or the Anti-infantry. Either way, he'll give up soemthing he needed. Balance with Eldar is what makes them a hard army to beat. Learn to use your units to surport one another.

Counter Attack gives you an extra attack on the counter-charge, so long as you pass a Ld test. While you may not get charged, at 5 points, it's a steal.

Eldar seem to be pigeonholed into the missnomer that the biggest strength of an eldar army is the speed. That is just one nice bonus to most of it but like any army, it has a lot more to offer. This list I feel is touching on one of those aspects, the tough as nails iyanden feel (which I love so very much myself).

Anyway, exarchs are awesome, they make the squad LD 9 so incase you are out of avatar range you have that added bonus.

For banshees, the exarch gives you some nice options for a bunch of extra ws5 attacks or some ws5 s5 attacks, quite a nice punch imo. Countercharge is really nice too for the +1 attack when charged.

For fire dragon, the SOLE reason I would take the exarch is for crackshot...Hull down is now a 4+ cover save-crack shot ignores cover saves so you pretty much have free reign over what tank dies when you want it to...Not to mention tank-hunter can really help out-especially if you realzie you are not 6" from target, your meltaguns aer effectively s9 with it. A nice bonus imo!

For dire avengers, you would be dumb NOT to take him... bladestorm is super awesome and heck, now with distract you can make powerfists a joke as they will only have 1 attack agaisnt DA squads (though I don't know fi I would take it unless I had nothing else to buy).

Exarchs just add to the specialization that eldar are so good at and add the extra punch that may sometimes be needed basically skewing luck and dice to your favor.

I have to agree with pheonix on the EML from wraithlords though. In a recent RTT I had a bl and sword on my lord and seldom ever got to fire the BL because of los issues and there was always something more pressing coming up. The one time I did fire it it killed a rhino that didn't really do anything since entangled is out of the picture. Keeping them cheap is a pretty good idea so you can spend points on more troops or putting EML on the WS. The only thing with the WL and EML is it is just a nice bonus if you can spare the points to have those two extra shots when you are fighting an army that will come to you for sure like nids/orks and heck, even shooting the extra shots at tau skimmers would be nice if they down the transports or tanks =).

@Silverwarrior, are you serious that you do not take exarchs for DA's and HB's?

Bladestorm is better than great, it is amazing! 32 S:4 shots that hit 22 times and generate 11 wounds on T:4. If that is not good enough for you, then sorry.

Im not removing Exarch on DA nor HB, i would like to add one to the dire dragons, but not enough points, i would have to drop vectored engines on the serpent for the purpose and make the squad a 5 man unit instead of 6 man.

On the second list i posted, the one with just one WL and 2 DA i did give the WL EML, how do you like that list?

I don't think you really need vectored engines these days too much so droping the points there could get you close to enough points for two EML on each WS and I'd prefer keeping the second wraithlord, he'd probably do more for you than the second squad of avengers.

extra wraithlord means more targets for anti tank-hopefully pulling shots away from your WSs.

Well the vectores engines work just as they use to, 6 on glancings or 4 on normal ones WS doenes is giving the oponent another 16% of destroying your vehicle