Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So people tell me that, because of the daemons army list in WHFB, the rules for hordes and beasts of chaos are changed. Confusing, as I just wanted to start looking into beastmen (since Dragon Ogre Shaggoth is my fav model and I like the brute beasty models). But when I ask about WHAT those new rules are, everyone suddenly shuts up as apparently nobody knows anything about it.

So here's me asking the questions anew:

Will you be able to add other chaos troops in your army that aren't in the beastmen book, if yes, which?
What ARE the things that actually change? And where can I find them, since it's kinda hard to make official changes without adding the actual rules. I heard rumours that since the debut of daemons, the other chaos suddenly became cheaper and stuff. I'd like to know, if so.

Anyway, I think that was all, thanks in advance, people.

There are a lot of rumors out there about what is going to happen to the various Chaos lists.

It does look as if they're about to get a lot less chaotic in that mixing between the 3 books is doubtful at best.

Maybe some limited interaction if the complaining is loud enough to be heard in the Warp.

The ol' min'n'match of the past looks to be just that though.

I never understood the abundant protest that accompanies the so-called "dechaosification" of Chaos.

Admittedly, I don't play much fantasy, as I'd rather have unprotected intercourse with a 20 grit belt sander, but I read alot of the novels, and paruse most of the army books for the kick ass flufftacticness. I have NEVER ever EVER seen fluff for combined chaos lists. Ever. Storm of Chaos, the greatest documentation of Chaos forces I have ever seen DISTINCTLY shows that the various permutations of Chaos were all SEPERATE. The beasts of chaos came from this way, conveniently delineated by a nice fat arrow from their origin, the mortals of chaos came from a different direction, and occassionally, demonic incursions poofed from nowhere to slaughter 20 or 30 children.

Often you see a sorceror summoning demons. But they are either summoning A demon, for a consultation or some such similar actioon, or it's a rogue lunatic summoning forth chaos in the form of a demonic incursion. But I haven't ever read anything about a mortal army, or a beast army, running into battle with demons at their sides.

The Malus Darkblade models has chaos GALORE, but the various flavors don't intermingle. First book is a bunch of beastmen (who kick ASS). In another book is a plague fleet that wishes I had started playing GW games when Man O'War was still available.

Even on the VERY RARE occassion that there was collaberation between the very disparagate (woot for inventing new words) forces, tghey still fought as seperate entities on the battlefield. The only real fluff-supported style to get beast/mortals/demons on the same battlefield would be as allies in a multi-player game.

Seems to me that the only objection comes from mouth-breathing power gamers who don't want something, which should never have been allowed in the first place, taken away from them.

Just my 2 cents.

DeathGod wrote:I never understood the abundant protest that accompanies the so-called "dechaosification" of Chaos.

Admittedly, I don't play much fantasy, as I'd rather have unprotected intercourse with a 20 grit belt sander, but I read alot of the novels, and paruse most of the army books for the kick ass flufftacticness. I have NEVER ever EVER seen fluff for combined chaos lists. Ever. Storm of Chaos, the greatest documentation of Chaos forces I have ever seen DISTINCTLY shows that the various permutations of Chaos were all SEPERATE. The beasts of chaos came from this way, conveniently delineated by a nice fat arrow from their origin, the mortals of chaos came from a different direction, and occassionally, demonic incursions poofed from nowhere to slaughter 20 or 30 children.

Often you see a sorceror summoning demons. But they are either summoning A demon, for a consultation or some such similar actioon, or it's a rogue lunatic summoning forth chaos in the form of a demonic incursion. But I haven't ever read anything about a mortal army, or a beast army, running into battle with demons at their sides.

The Malus Darkblade models has chaos GALORE, but the various flavors don't intermingle. First book is a bunch of beastmen (who kick ASS). In another book is a plague fleet that wishes I had started playing GW games when Man O'War was still available.

Even on the VERY RARE occassion that there was collaberation between the very disparagate (woot for inventing new words) forces, tghey still fought as seperate entities on the battlefield. The only real fluff-supported style to get beast/mortals/demons on the same battlefield would be as allies in a multi-player game.

Seems to me that the only objection comes from mouth-breathing power gamers who don't want something, which should never have been allowed in the first place, taken away from them.

Just my 2 cents.

Now ignoring the fact you have choosen to label everyone who disagrees you with a derogatory...

Since the first books came out that has always been the army. Many poeple also choose to play mixes based not on strength but on theme (when it was possible, as often some elements were so weak as to be unplayble. ) The mouth breathers, as you choose to refer to them, are often the people who choose to without the mixed elements of chaos.

Anyone who reads black library novels for GW fluff is lost. Try the liber chaotica.

DeathGod wrote:

I don't play much fantasy, as I'd rather have unprotected intercourse with a 20 grit belt sander, .

Not knowing your personal preferences, i can't tell if you're saying you don't like fantasy, or that other "hobbies" occupy your time.

(I really hope you take that as )

DeathGod wrote:but I read alot of the novels, and paruse most of the army books for the kick ass flufftacticness. I have NEVER ever EVER seen fluff for combined chaos lists. Ever. Storm of Chaos, the greatest documentation of Chaos forces I have ever seen DISTINCTLY shows that the various permutations of Chaos were all SEPERATE. The beasts of chaos came from this way, conveniently delineated by a nice fat arrow from their origin, the mortals of chaos came from a different direction, and occassionally, demonic incursions poofed from nowhere to slaughter 20 or 30 children.

Often you see a sorceror summoning demons. But they are either summoning A demon, for a consultation or some such similar actioon, or it's a rogue lunatic summoning forth chaos in the form of a demonic incursion. But I haven't ever read anything about a mortal army, or a beast army, running into battle with demons at their sides.

The Malus Darkblade models has chaos GALORE, but the various flavors don't intermingle. First book is a bunch of beastmen (who kick ASS). In another book is a plague fleet that wishes I had started playing GW games when Man O'War was still available.

Even on the VERY RARE occassion that there was collaberation between the very disparagate (woot for inventing new words) forces, tghey still fought as seperate entities on the battlefield. The only real fluff-supported style to get beast/mortals/demons on the same battlefield would be as allies in a multi-player game.

I think that as the new army lists have taken the approach of seperating Chaos into three distinct flavours, the background stories have followed. Certainly when i first started the novels regularly mixed and matched between the groups.

DeathGod wrote:Seems to me that the only objection comes from mouth-breathing power gamers who don't want something, which should never have been allowed in the first place, taken away from them.

You've forgotten about the collectors, such as myself. I'm primarily a Chaos Mortals player. However, over my decade+ of playing i've certainly picked up various units from beastmen and daemons. It's hard not to. Now i've got 3 seperate armies, instead of one big one, except 2 are very small, completely illegal, and wont move from the shelf again as i have no interest in playing and enlarging those armies. Saying that, i'm not wholy against the seperation, but i can see others in my situation who could be very p*ssed off

DeathGod wrote:I never understood the abundant protest that accompanies the so-called "dechaosification" of Chaos.

Admittedly, I don't play much fantasy...

Wow.

It it only went downhill from there.

You realize that some people liked the variety the combined lists represented?

The ability to occasionally collect and paint a unit that varied from the core of the army?

Ah well...

Thanks for playing though!

Alpharius wrote:

DeathGod wrote:I never understood the abundant protest that accompanies the so-called "dechaosification" of Chaos.

Admittedly, I don't play much fantasy...

Wow.

It it only went downhill from there.

You realize that some people liked the variety the combined lists represented?

The ability to occasionally collect and paint a unit that varied from the core of the army?

Ah well...

Thanks for playing though!

I agree completely, I really liked the idea of having a bigger choice of troops.

But anyway, appart from people liking it or not, does anyone have a clearer answer?

I'd say the answer lies in the temp list the put in WD for Hordes of Chaos, or Mortal Chaos or whatever they are going name it. I haven't got the WD to hand (at work, aye on a Sunday.. the gits) but I'm pretty sure they removed the Demons, and all rumour about the update to the new book seems to be saying the same.

From that I'd say Beasts will go the same way, and the only question I'm left with is why haven't GW done a temp list for them as well.

Wait, since when is combing the forces of chaos powergaming? The last hordes of chaos armybook isn't very good, even if you cherry pick the best units from beasts to go with it.

But it sure is more interesting then the demons book where all the gods just play nice and ancient animosities vanish.

I DUN PLAY UR STOOPID GAME SO I KNOW BESTEST!

Please...

WHFB has a tradition of mixed Chaos forces going way back. And even if it didn't, more selection definitely seems to fit the concept of Chaos better than rigid uniformity. I agree that losing the faction power struggle is rather weak, though, and certainly seems more inclined to powergaming than the previous setup. It didn't look weird to see beasts, mortals, and the occasionally daemon showing up. It does to see all 4 powers having a big love fest.

Mixed chaos goes all the way back, and is completely current as well. The only Black Library The last book for Hordes of Chaos was WHFB fluff book I’ve read (not counting old 80s stuff) was the fairly recent Ambassador Chronicles anthology, and in the big battle the horde of chaos has lots of mortals, but has beastmen going after the war machines, minotaurs tearing it up the center, and a huge Dragon Ogre Shaggoth wreaking havoc. It’s clearly a mixed army. Mixed chaos is the true and original chaos.

The last Hordes of Chaos army book was designed very conservatively, as in previous editions chaos stuff was often seen as overpowered, so they erred on the side of caution by overcosting knights and warriors, and most of the daemons. This allowed them to rebalance the army into being decently competitive when they released the Beasts of Chaos book, as it gave the Mortals some desperately-needed flexibility (the daemons in that book, sadly, were all pretty crap aside from Furies).

So Deathgod I’m afraid IMO you’ve struck out – first on the fluff, second on the powergaming accusation, and thirdly on not loving one of the best war games out there, and my personal favorite (just ahead of 40k and Warmachine).

Vidar, it doesn’t presently look good for mixing. GW wants to encourage all the existing mixed chaos players to flesh out their stuff into multiple armies. The only good news is on the powergaming side. The last time they did this was in the get you by Ravening Hordes supplement which was released for all the armies when 6th edition was launched. And all three lists (particularly mortals and daemons) were brutal in that version. Judging by the daemons, GW seems less conservative with the non-mixed lists, as they’re not worried about unforeseen interactions.

Personally, I don't like letting GW's cumbersome and contradictory fluff get in the way of me making a list that I think is fun, creative, or interesting. If it's powerful too, then bonus.

I realize that this might be kind of an advanced concept for some people who feel like they have to slavishly follow their interpretation of someone else's background to play a game "properly", but I guess if I was used to playing 40k and liked fighting Space Marines every other game, the "dechaosification" might not bother me either.

As it stands though, I think it sucks. It sucks for GW too, as I won't be picking up any boxes of beastmen anytime soon, thanks to this change in policy with Chaos.

C'mon, you have to admire a guy who manages to get the word "mouth-breather" or some variation thereof into every post, right?

Back OT, I think Chaos (both WFB and 40K) seems to to be caught in a perpetual cycle of fragmentation and reunification. What's "right" is mostly an impression based on what the status quo was when you first became familiar with Chaos.

Back in 1st/2nd edition of Warhammer FB, didn't some of the demon forces suffer "Animosity" towards each other? Something like, if a unit of the other demon faction was closer to a unit than one of your opponent's units, you had to roll a d6 and on a 1 or something, they charged that unit? I also thought Dwarves/Elves suffered this towards each other, too? I thought that Khorne/Tzeentch suffered it towards each other, and Nurgle/Slaanesh - but I could be way off.

Or maybe I am thinking of the wrong game. If so, my apologies. It's been a long time since I played Warhammer back then, and I've long since sold those books.

Regardless, I do think it's cool to encourage players to take a single force, instead of cherry-picking all the best units from the four factions. But then again, there is something inherently 'chaotic' about letting the chaos horde include anything they want.

In answer to the OP's question, here is a link to the latest rules update for Beats of Chaos.

And here are the rules for human Warriors of Chaos. Warning: they are lame in the extreme.

For me the best story that typifies chaos is "Laughter of the Dark Gods" in the book of the same name. It's a collection of short stories.

In that story Khorne and Slaanesh hate each other, beastmen mix with mortals, and stuff gets chopped up. Mostly other chaos warbands.

That's the reason that chaos hasn't over run the old world. Because it is too busy fighting itself. This in turn makes characters like Archaeon very scary because of their "persausive" natures.

But with the all new, all marks chaos, who needs great champions to unite forces of chaos? Boring!

I still think the 5th edition version of combining the forces was the best one (assuming I'm remembering it correctly... ).

The basic idea was you would choose a character, then choose the units that followed that character. The units point totals had to exceed that character's point total, and what units you could include (say, for marks etc... ) were limited by that character.

So kind of like having multiple 'war bands' all put together in one glorious chaotic mess.

I liked the system so much it's how I continued to design my lists throughout 6th edition.

If they would bring this idea back it would be most excellent. It really was an interesting limiting factor on how you put your lists together.

My personal gripe with their new direction is that it has rendered my army unplayable.

I mean literally. I used to run a mortal Tzeentch army. I no longer have any valid Core units built up, as my army contained no infantry.

I also agree that having the various powers engaging in a love-fest feels weird (thought I suppose with Slaanesh around...).

I find the protests on the separation of Chaos deeply amusing. Mostly because I was a long time undead player who was incredibly upset when they split it inot Vampire Counts & Tomb Kings. I liked my Vampires and Mummies intermingled. It was so much more fun :p

Shouldn't "deeply amusing" more correctly be "deeply disturbing" and/or "I feel your pain!"?

Just because "It happened to you" don't be wishing it on others!

From what I think I read, you have to use just 1 codex now.. so, a beastmen army can only use stuff from the beasts of chaos book. Kinda messed up my little army cuz now I have 5 screamers I can't use and also I was doing some conversions to make marauders, but beasts riding cold ones... so I'm gonna have to end up proxying them as centigors I guess

Given that they divorced specific daemons from the CSM codex in 40k. (We have make do with generic stuff now) I'd not be surprised if they de-mix the lists in fantasy as well.