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i was wondering what your thoughts on the new running rule in 5th.

I think that it shouldn't be optional. Everyone should run, every turn.

Yes, I play an assault army.

i like it. it means i can actually get my infantry to where i want them to be in a reasonable time. infantry generally needed a bit of a speed boost and this is a good way to do it. the random element keeps things interesting. combat armies needed it with TLOS and no more consolidating into fresh combats. running combat fexes and leaping warriors scare me though.

its a good rule

Regwon wrote:i like it. it means i can actually get my infantry to where i want them to be in a reasonable time. infantry generally needed a bit of a speed boost and this is a good way to do it. the random element keeps things interesting. combat armies needed it with TLOS and no more consolidating into fresh combats. running combat fexes and leaping warriors scare me though.

its a good rule

foughta tyranid army that had a maxed out squad of horma gaunts with leaping and everything else they could have. they got into my line and tore the place up. but i out paced his geansteelers and carnifex's.

truegrit/counterattack ftw.

Its annoying, not in that you can do it, but that you have to roll a D6 for distance. I get annoyed that everything is a ing dice roll and can't be counted on. Just double the normal move.

jfrazell wrote:Its annoying, not in that you can do it, but that you have to roll a D6 for distance. I get annoyed that everything is a ing dice roll and can't be counted on. Just double the normal move.

Nuts to this. It's a game.

I played in an RTT yesterday and I was 2-0 going into the last game against Cypher (Dakka name). The mission was Annihilation Spearhead and I was the only undefeated at this point in the RTT. I was playing fluffy Emp Children against Deathwing with 3 dreads and tons o' termies.

Cypher set up first, I deployed against the back edge hoping the distance would help inimize Cyphers chances of getting a win and let me get the draw. Due to the run rule, Cypher was able to get his 3 dreads into close combat by turn 5. Without run, there is no way he could have made it there.

Damn run, cost me first place yesterday.

jfrazell wrote:Just double the normal move.

It's called a transport, use em.

As far as the run rule, it's great. The game has changed soooo much from 4th to 5th, with the run rule being one of those changes that has really made the game more dynamic. It's made deep striking not such a death sentence with the new template rules. Units that were complete crap before are now able to be used (close combat carnie springs to mind).

It’s annoying that by the rules you’re supposed to move 6” during the shooting phase, then go back during the shooting phase to move D6”. It would have been so much simpler if they’d incorporated the fleet roll into the move roll.

If you know something is going to be running, just tell your opponent they're gonna run in the movement phase, roll your dice and move them. I've been rolling my fleet rolls in the movement phase for as long as I can remember, and I never once had an opponent complain about it, even in tourneys. As long as you can keep track of who ran and don't try to shoot with them you should be fine. Use counters or tokens or something if you have to.

I actually prefer my opponenst to follow the sequence of moving everything then running in the shooting phase. It is not a huge deal, I just don't like sloppy play. I wouldn't dock you on sports, but I would ask you to follow the correct sequence.

For tourneys I'd have to side with Darrian on this one. A couple "botched" run rules and suddenly you have a traffic jam. Doing it during movement basically can prevent that aspect of play.

Besides, playing "wrong" can create bad habits that'll bite you later.

I'm fine with rolling run during movement, until the forces get in near assault range. Then it's gotta be by the book. Knowing that your fleet roll isn't going to get you into combat makes a huge difference on where a unit wants to go. So rolling it during movement can carry with it some serious advantages to the assaulting player.

Necros wrote:If you know something is going to be running, just tell your opponent they're gonna run in the movement phase, roll your dice and move them. I've been rolling my fleet rolls in the movement phase for as long as I can remember, and I never once had an opponent complain about it, even in tourneys.

That's because you've never played anyone in my gaming group.
Run/Fleet rolls should always be made in the shooting phase. Not only is it the proper way to play 9according to the rules), but it can affect how you decide to move the rest of your army.

If someone has 2 units that they are going to run (and both have fleet), and hope to attack 2 separate targets in Assault, but one of those targets is FAR more vital than the other, they might change your move with the SECOND unit to accomodate what the FIRST unit didn't do when they rolled a crappy fleet/run distance. It could potentially alter the outcome of the game.

Eric

I was referring to the old fleet not the new fleet. I haven't even played any 5th edition games at all yet :(

And my fleet army was tyranids, an army full of little gaunts so when I rolled for fleet it was obvious that my whole plan was to run across the board and get into close combat.

But I don't see how it's any different for say Khorne Berzerkers that are gonna run. Like, say you want to advance behind some cover, and you know you're not gonna be shooting their cheapy little pistols because if you're close enough to use them you're prolly close enough to charge. I don't see why you can't just save a couple of minutes and keep the game running smoothly by saying "Hey, these guys are gonna run instead of shoot, mind if I just roll it now?".. then you move as close as you can to the terrain feature you're headed toward. Instead of ... move everything. "Ok these guys are running." Roll your dice. Move in the same direction you were going to go anyway..

yeah there's some times when you will want to see how one unit shoots before you decide to run another.. and that's fine, but I meant if you know from the get go that whatever unit is just going to run or fleet no matter what, then why not just do it all at once?

Moz wrote:I'm fine with rolling run during movement, until the forces get in near assault range. Then it's gotta be by the book. Knowing that your fleet roll isn't going to get you into combat makes a huge difference on where a unit wants to go. So rolling it during movement can carry with it some serious advantages to the assaulting player.

That's pretty much how I am.

I allow it when it won't matter.

I don't when it will.

I also don't ask if I can when I know it could matter.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Necros wrote:If you know something is going to be running, just tell your opponent they're gonna run in the movement phase, roll your dice and move them. I've been rolling my fleet rolls in the movement phase for as long as I can remember, and I never once had an opponent complain about it, even in tourneys.

That's because you've never played anyone in my gaming group.
Run/Fleet rolls should always be made in the shooting phase. Not only is it the proper way to play 9according to the rules), but it can affect how you decide to move the rest of your army.

If someone has 2 units that they are going to run (and both have fleet), and hope to attack 2 separate targets in Assault, but one of those targets is FAR more vital than the other, they might change your move with the SECOND unit to accomodate what the FIRST unit didn't do when they rolled a crappy fleet/run distance. It could potentially alter the outcome of the game.

Eric

Only if it actually could get someone into assault. If we are 30" apart, it doesn't mean much.

If you roll all the dice for all the units you choose to run, then move them...it really does speed play up considerably, and there isn't any real effect in gameplay.

jfrazell wrote:Its annoying, not in that you can do it, but that you have to roll a D6 for distance. I get annoyed that everything is a ing dice roll and can't be counted on. Just double the normal move.

I'm with you on that. I like the fact that you have the option to give up shooting for extra movement as its a really needed boost for most assault based armies. However, I can't stand the fact that you have to roll for it. I can't tell you how anoyed it makes me every time I see good tactical situations set up and then ruined by a single die roll. Particularly when it comes to "If I assault you, I win the game, if not I lose" or something similar. If it involved more dice (and thus averaged out more) somehow, it wouldn't be so bad, but it isn't. I also hate how being fleet doesn't make you fast anymore. It really anoyes me that the only thing fleet is good for anymore is getting into hand to hand. In 3rd and 4th editon, I used fleet mostly to stay out of hand to hand, not get into it. Now that option is lost to me, so I just have to hope that my opponents roll bad for their run moves and I can roll good for mine. *sigh*

While I'm ok with difficult terrain movement being rolled for, I really wish they would take random distance out of other forms of movement. I'd much rather see a system where running allowed you to move 3" in the shooting phase instead of shooting. Then it would be a standard distance that could be counted on. Then you could have it so that fleet allowed you to move 6" instead of shooting. Of course, in both cases, you would have to allow assaulting after the run move, but I don't see any problems with that. Another slightly different option (which might be a good idea) would be to make running 4" (6" with fleet) and make it so that "run" moves are cut in half by difficult terrain (since they ignore it now). It would again make things predictable and even and eliminate the whole "If I roll a 1/6 here I win/lose"

Phoenix wrote: Particularly when it comes to "If I assault you, I win the game, if not I lose" or something similar.

This has absolutely no bearing on Run. If you're in a situation where you need to assault or lose and you're out of normal assault move, then you lose (unless the unit is fleet). That dice roll on the Run isn't going to make any immediate tactical difference, as a unit that runs won't be doing anything else that turn. The running is just to get you to the tactically important places sooner.

Phoenix wrote:
I also hate how being fleet doesn't make you fast anymore. It really anoyes me that the only thing fleet is good for anymore is getting into hand to hand. In 3rd and 4th editon, I used fleet mostly to stay out of hand to hand, not get into it. Now that option is lost to me, so I just have to hope that my opponents roll bad for their run moves and I can roll good for mine.

Again, you seem to be forgetting about not being able to assault after running. The situation still works the same way as it did before. On your turn, since you didn't get assaulted the previous turn, they must be outside of 6" away. So you move 6" and then fleet, so even if you only make it an inch, you're more than 12" away from them. So if they move 6" they can't reach you, and if they run the can't charge you. They'll need multiple turns of higher run rolls than you to catch up, and considering that they're going to be starting on the other side of the board, and the game will last 5-7 turns, I can't see very many situations where the introduction of Run with allow non-Fleeting units to catch someone in a footrace.

And as far as the randomness, that's the game. Everything is random. Sure, big shooting phases and combats generally average out pretty well, but there are plenty of single rolls that could spell disaster for you... the important deepstriking unit that scattered on top of something, the one invulnerable save on your HQ against instant death, and with 5th edition I've been discovering that a lot of the time that one die roll to see if there'll be a turn 6 or not is a huge difference.

sirisaacnuton wrote:This has absolutely no bearing on Run. If you're in a situation where you need to assault or lose and you're out of normal assault move, then you lose (unless the unit is fleet). That dice roll on the Run isn't going to make any immediate tactical difference, as a unit that runs won't be doing anything else that turn. The running is just to get you to the tactically important places sooner.

Again, you seem to be forgetting about not being able to assault after running....

I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure "Fleet" now allows you to assault AFTER running, which makes Phoenix's points pretty important.

But I am a noob, and could be way off.

Yes, fleet is worthless to many of the units that had it before (eldar shooty boys).

Everything is random doesn't make it a good game. Why add another (CENSORED) unneeded dice roll. The last time we had running was 2nd Edition, and movement was just doubled then. None of this other nonsense.

I think you missed the point there Mort. Lets use a couple units for an example.

Spinegaunts (have fleet) and a tactical squad (do not have fleet). The spinegaunts are trying to get away from the tactical squad. The tactical squad moves 6, sees that they are not yet in assault range (lets say 9"), so they run forward. Lets go with a roll of 3", so that puts them at 6". In assault range, but they can't since they don't have fleet. Now the spinegaunts move, 6" away, total of 12, then they run, rolling a 1. Total of 13. They are now, once again, out of assault range. If the unit chasing them had fleet (lets say, harlequins), they would've been caught.

I'd have to disagree with you Phoenix about removing the random factor. I have to say I like it. Otherwise it comes down to a bit of X, Y, Z. (That unit always moves 6", then runs another 3", so I know where I need to stand to not be assaulted.). Now people can play a bit more gutsy (Hmm, they'll move 6", then they'll probably need at least a 5 on their fleet roll to be able to assault me if I stand here. But if I stand out of range of the possible assault I don't have LOS to that other squad. Hmmm, should I take the chance?) That randomness can be the tense moments in some games, adding to the fun of it all. A lot better sounding then "Ah, my opponent was really good at picturing distances so I was always 1/2" away from assaulting him"

However, it takes away from the tactical aspects of it, focusing again on the dice aspects.

jfrazell wrote:However, it takes away from the tactical aspects of it, focusing again on the dice aspects.

Precisely. It takes the options away from me and puts the decisions in the hand of the dice. And while I'm ok with that for some things (like combat) I don't like it for everything. I want to have more control over what happens on the field and since movement and positioning are such an important part of the game and the most prone for tactical adjustment. And again, it puts a lot of game changing weight on very few dice rolls. I was estatic to see they had marginalized the power of the "first turn roll" so I guess this is next on the list.

That and I just can't get over the fact that fleet units move just as fast as everyone else now (until they assault). Bugs the heck out of me.

Lormax wrote:Spinegaunts (have fleet) and a tactical squad (do not have fleet). The spinegaunts are trying to get away from the tactical squad. The tactical squad moves 6, sees that they are not yet in assault range (lets say 9"), so they run forward. Lets go with a roll of 3", so that puts them at 6". In assault range, but they can't since they don't have fleet. Now the spinegaunts move, 6" away, total of 12, then they run, rolling a 1. Total of 13. They are now, once again, out of assault range. If the unit chasing them had fleet (lets say, harlequins), they would've been caught.

Ah! Gotcha! Thanks for the explanation Lormax.

So far, as someone just returning to 40k, I like the randomness of run. It doesn't guarantee max movement (like some previous editions did), but it gives the possibility for it. I think just auto-doubling movement for everyone may have made armies a bit TOO fast, perhaps.

If run was double movement, it would have made transports completely useless. I personally dislike the rule. It makes playing a shooty army much more difficult. The TLOS, rampent coversaves, and other issues worked us over enough, run was not needed.

Transports can provide cover and firepower. Skimmas and orks go fasta!