More Finecast Shenanigins

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**jgehunter**

pretre wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
crazyrossboy wrote:
But if we calcluate the percentage of "good" (ie; minimal work needed) models, to minis that have serious issues
from what I've herd and seen its still in a ratio of about 50/1
not bad really if you ask me

So a 2% fail rate. Something that is unacceptable in ANY industry.

Not entirely true. That's still about a 3.55 Sigma. A Sigma level of 3-4 (or between 66k and 6k DPMO) is considered 'Standard' in many industries.

I don't know much about "sigma" ratings, but with GW I'm being sold products at such a price that I really expect them to be of a quality that matches their price.

**pretre**

@jgehunter: I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing his characterization of ANY industry not accepting 2% defects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_sigma

**60mm**

I just purchased my first finecast model, a Tyranid Hiveguard. Missing a piece and lots of bubbles, especially on points of stuff, armor, tongue, etc so i cant simply fill it in. Wow. Can't believe it was $25, I'll never buy finecast again.

**A Town Called Malus**

jgehunter wrote:
pretre wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
crazyrossboy wrote:
But if we calcluate the percentage of "good" (ie; minimal work needed) models, to minis that have serious issues
from what I've herd and seen its still in a ratio of about 50/1
not bad really if you ask me

So a 2% fail rate. Something that is unacceptable in ANY industry.

Not entirely true. That's still about a 3.55 Sigma. A Sigma level of 3-4 (or between 66k and 6k DPMO) is considered 'Standard' in many industries.

I don't know much about "sigma" ratings, but with GW I'm being sold products at such a price that I really expect them to be of a quality that matches their price.

Sigma is a mathematical term relating to standard deviations from an average. So it's effectively a measurement of how far either side of the average result is considered within the range of a normal result.

At least that's what I can remember from my Maths A-levels which were admittedly 2 years ago.

**Talos63**

I thought it might be of interest for others to see this.

The first quoted text was my last email to GW Customer service in Australia.

Their response is quoted below that...

Good Morning Customer Service,
I have been deliberating over how to respond to you all, having received my
latest replacement for the 25th Ann. Figure. I was disappointed to see that
it was still in Shrinkwrap, indicating that it wasn't checked before it left
to come to me.

Once again there were problems. The base with tissue thin in places, and
missing much surface detail because of bubbling. The Standard Aquilla was
broken off and NOT in the box!

The figure is pitted with bubbling in all of the usual places, better than
the last one I received, but still not up to the quality I would expect from
a process that GW has proclaimed to be so good.

I have, over the course of receiving the replacements, managed to cobble a
set together that I can repair. There is still more work than I feel I
should have to do, but in light of the product that I have received, I doubt
that a figure free of anything but acceptable patching jobs with LGS, is
possible to deliver.

After a month of to-ing and fro-ing, I have a substandard version of a
figure that SHOULD have been near perfect, given its nostalgic significance
and high media profile. I have yet to see a favourable review of this figure
anywhere. This has been a poor showing in the public eye for GW and
Finecast.

I am grateful that you all at customer service have been so accommodating,
and your replacement policy is great. The problem seems to lie in the fact
that you don't have acceptable stock to replace faulty items with. That
comes back to an obvious flaw in quality control at point of manufacture.

I would be EXTREMELY reluctant to buy any other Finecast product having seen
the problems with this figure. I'm sorry about that, because some of the new
sculpts are excellent. I am a Lord of the Rings fan, and was hoping to
purchase some of the new character figures, not to mention some of your
excellent new Space Wolf characters (my favourite chapter).

I would request that you forward this to the head of GW customer service in
the UK. I would very much like to hear back on what will be done in the
future to restore my confidence in purchasing your figures. Right now, I
would not dare spend the money. That stance will not change until I know I
will get an acceptable figure first time.

Thank you again for your assistance, I'm only sorry that you couldn't supply
the goods. If I were a modeller of lesser experience, I'm afraid to say I
would be asking for a refund or credit towards non Finecast product.

This message has been forwarded on to our manufacturing department head. These issues are still been looked in to and will continually be on a constant improvement. We will be replacing this miniature for you again, we are just waiting on replacement part from the UK. We will notify you next week with a estimated time as they are currently in transit. We are very sorry for any inconvenience that this has caused you and if you have any more questions please contact us again

So, in spite of my informing them that I had a set of parts that would be serviceable after a lengthy repair, they still want to send me another replacement figure. I guess they are trying to prove that the product can be supplied in a fit state for use.

I realised that my pic of the finished figure looks very cartoonish due to the colour values being ramped up. I will try and take a better pic under better lighting conditions with my macro capable Canon digital. I thought my phone would have produced a better result at 5 times the mP. I actually pick up a couple of errors that I missed correcting. These will have to be sorted out in the future.

**oni**

mwnciboo wrote:
oni wrote:I agree, they're in far too deep to go back now. Finecast very well may be an intermediate before going to all plastic, but I doubt it simply because of the cost of molds for plastic. They're not going to invest millions of dollars into molds for models that only sells a few thousand units a year..

Interesting, because have you looked at their Share Price in the last 12 months?

Not a company thats struggling for investment or Cash, it also paid a Dividend last year. You are aware of the current Global Recession? This Company would not struggle for Cash from Investors or banks, so actually it could happen and if they put several Models in each steel (read 9- 10 ) mould they could reduce overheads significantly.

Leave the business for those with MBA's.

LMAO! Duly noted.

**jonolikespie**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
jonolikespie wrote:I picked up an emperors champion today, it's a pretty good summery of my experience with finecast so far. It looks fine from the front but when you pick it up there are a ton of bubbles underneath. All in all it will only take an hour or so with some liquid greenstuff to fix everything so I wouldn't bother with a refund or anything but that is still an hour or so wasted

Take that gak back and get your refund.

Seriously. It's not acceptable even as only a 'game' piece. The condition of the back and front shoulder is horrendous. That's not a 'fix'. That's practucally a resculpt job.

Do not just accept it. It will not improve if you do. Take that back and either get a suitable replacement or demand a refund.

Wow um.. not sure if trolling or just really hates finecast.
I have cleaned it up and it took about as much time to do as a metal model would have anyway

**Grimtuff**

jonolikespie wrote:
DarkStarSabre wrote:
jonolikespie wrote:I picked up an emperors champion today, it's a pretty good summery of my experience with finecast so far. It looks fine from the front but when you pick it up there are a ton of bubbles underneath. All in all it will only take an hour or so with some liquid greenstuff to fix everything so I wouldn't bother with a refund or anything but that is still an hour or so wasted

Take that gak back and get your refund.

Seriously. It's not acceptable even as only a 'game' piece. The condition of the back and front shoulder is horrendous. That's not a 'fix'. That's practucally a resculpt job.

Do not just accept it. It will not improve if you do. Take that back and either get a suitable replacement or demand a refund.

Wow um.. not sure if trolling or just really hates finecast.
I have cleaned it up and it took about as much time to do as a metal model would have anyway

I'm speechless.

You're ignoring your own photos, look at all the bubbling and malformed parts, such as on the arms and the necklace. Metal models do not take over an hour to clean up and prepare, even though filling the missing parts in with LGS is NOT "cleaning up". It is resculpting parts of the model that are simply not there.

If you want to take it lying down from GW then be my guest, they won't get the message and keep producing sub par casts as people keep thinking "feth it, I can fix it!". But don't go thinking anyone that holds GW to a higher standard than you is all of a sudden trolling.

**Dravenguild**

It's to be expected Grimtuff, GW knows that for all the ranting and raving, there will still be the majority that uphold the status quo, we know this as "battered wife syndrome".

As long as we stick to our principles and avoid finecast like the plague it is the better.

For those that would like to pay a 20% markup over metal with an insurmountable amount of flaws are free to spend their money as they please.

If this is one thing that teaches us, it's that this is the reason GW is getting bolder with screwing the customers over, because a good majority roll over and drop trousers.

**jonolikespie**

Grimtuff wrote:
jonolikespie wrote:
DarkStarSabre wrote:
jonolikespie wrote:I picked up an emperors champion today, it's a pretty good summery of my experience with finecast so far. It looks fine from the front but when you pick it up there are a ton of bubbles underneath. All in all it will only take an hour or so with some liquid greenstuff to fix everything so I wouldn't bother with a refund or anything but that is still an hour or so wasted

Take that gak back and get your refund.

Seriously. It's not acceptable even as only a 'game' piece. The condition of the back and front shoulder is horrendous. That's not a 'fix'. That's practucally a resculpt job.

Do not just accept it. It will not improve if you do. Take that back and either get a suitable replacement or demand a refund.

Wow um.. not sure if trolling or just really hates finecast.
I have cleaned it up and it took about as much time to do as a metal model would have anyway

I'm speechless.

You're ignoring your own photos, look at all the bubbling and malformed parts, such as on the arms and the necklace. Metal models do not take over an hour to clean up and prepare, even though filling the missing parts in with LGS is NOT "cleaning up". It is resculpting parts of the model that are simply not there.

If you want to take it lying down from GW then be my guest, they won't get the message and keep producing sub par casts as people keep thinking "feth it, I can fix it!". But don't go thinking anyone that holds GW to a higher standard than you is all of a sudden trolling.

Yes there were bubbles on some of the lower facing surfaces but it literary took one layer of liquid greenstuff (2 in the worst affected areas) to clean up all the bubbles and I only ended up spending about 15 minutes total to clean it up (and it was cleaning up, *not* resculpting). I'm not saying finecast doesn't have problems I'm just pointing out mine have never been hard to fix and a few bubbles are not enough to cry for a refund. I am a lazy, lazy man but I expect to have to clean models before painting them, even plastic requires some work.

**DarkStarSabre**

jonolikespie wrote:
DarkStarSabre wrote:
jonolikespie wrote:I picked up an emperors champion today, it's a pretty good summery of my experience with finecast so far. It looks fine from the front but when you pick it up there are a ton of bubbles underneath. All in all it will only take an hour or so with some liquid greenstuff to fix everything so I wouldn't bother with a refund or anything but that is still an hour or so wasted

Take that gak back and get your refund.

Seriously. It's not acceptable even as only a 'game' piece. The condition of the back and front shoulder is horrendous. That's not a 'fix'. That's practucally a resculpt job.

Do not just accept it. It will not improve if you do. Take that back and either get a suitable replacement or demand a refund.

Wow um.. not sure if trolling or just really hates finecast.
I have cleaned it up and it took about as much time to do as a metal model would have anyway

It's called standards.

Considering how they harped Finecast. Considering how resin from other companies comes and indeed how resin from a 'sister' company, Forge World comes this is disgraceful.

It's certainly not acceptable. How much did you pay for that miniature and did it come with a pot of liquid greenstuff for free?

If you seriously consider the 'just use liquid greenstuff' statement acceptable then that is your choice. But that's not the quality I would have accepted two years ago. That's certainly not the quality I'll accept now. If you are having to resculpt parts of a miniature (see glaring bubble-hole on the back) then it's certainly not worth paying for and most certainly not acceptable quality. Especially when the miniature you are choosing to demonstrate as 'acceptable' has been available in metal in the past and I certainly have not seen those issues in the metal Emperor's Champions I have worked on.

If a new medium causes new flaws in addition to any that may have previously existed then something is very wrong.

**tyrannosaurus**

Just thought I'd add my tuppence...

I think people are in danger of getting nostalgic about the quality of metal minis - my army has a large amount of metal in it [oblits, daemon princes, noise marine conversion packs, dreadnaughts etc.] and the quality of the metal casts is, overall, pretty poor - obviously not bubbles, but a lot of the pieces just don't fit together very well, in particular the oblits and DPs which have big gaps, e.g. between the torso and legs, arm and torso, and the weapons that attach onto the oblits hands. Two noise marine heads and one of the oblits are also miscast., and I always have to clear off flash and mold lines from metal minis. I have had to use a lot of green stuff and lgs to fill in gaps to get them to an acceptable level before painting. I've always just seen that as part of the hobby having grown up with metal minis. Therefore filling in bubbles with lgs doesn't really bother me.

Having said that...

1. Using the opportunity of Finecast [a cheaper material] to raise prices is scandalous, and my biggest problem with it. The price raise [and the USP of Finecast] was made on the basis that these would be of a much better quality than metal minis, which doesn't seem to be the case. If they're not better, and the material is cheaper, don't charge me more.

2. Miscasts, or bubbles that obsure/destroy detail, are unacceptable in a product that is supposedly better [and therefore more expensive] than metal. The majority of people in this hobby do not have the skills to remould detailed parts, and shouldn't have to.

3. Accusing people of being GW haters for criticising Finecast is rubbish. From what I've read those attacking Finecast complement GW on their ability to produce excellent quality plastics and seem disappointed that the opportunity to produce good quality resin products has been wasted.

4. GW [apparently] ignoring the problem is just making it worse. Accept there is an issue, tell us how you're dealing with it and these threads die.

**DarkStarSabre**

Tyrannosaurus. Thank you for that.

Points 1, 2 and 3 are the main points consistently raised.

The blatant 'trolling' or 'hater' responses being thrown around of late? Missing the point.

GW's plastics and metals have always been of excellent quality. You'll find that most of us have taken to their more recent approach of plastic WFB characters quite happily and indeed hope they do more with it, because not only is it an easier medium to work and convert with but it's also oddly enough cheaper - don't believe me? Compare the prices of the plastic Saurus Oldblood to the Finecast Saurus Oldblood.

**LunaHound**

jonolikespie wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
jonolikespie wrote:
DarkStarSabre wrote:
jonolikespie wrote:I picked up an emperors champion today, it's a pretty good summery of my experience with finecast so far. It looks fine from the front but when you pick it up there are a ton of bubbles underneath. All in all it will only take an hour or so with some liquid greenstuff to fix everything so I wouldn't bother with a refund or anything but that is still an hour or so wasted

Take that gak back and get your refund.

Seriously. It's not acceptable even as only a 'game' piece. The condition of the back and front shoulder is horrendous. That's not a 'fix'. That's practucally a resculpt job.

Do not just accept it. It will not improve if you do. Take that back and either get a suitable replacement or demand a refund.

Wow um.. not sure if trolling or just really hates finecast.
I have cleaned it up and it took about as much time to do as a metal model would have anyway

I'm speechless.

You're ignoring your own photos, look at all the bubbling and malformed parts, such as on the arms and the necklace. Metal models do not take over an hour to clean up and prepare, even though filling the missing parts in with LGS is NOT "cleaning up". It is resculpting parts of the model that are simply not there.

If you want to take it lying down from GW then be my guest, they won't get the message and keep producing sub par casts as people keep thinking "feth it, I can fix it!". But don't go thinking anyone that holds GW to a higher standard than you is all of a sudden trolling.

Yes there were bubbles on some of the lower facing surfaces but it literary took one layer of liquid greenstuff (2 in the worst affected areas) to clean up all the bubbles and I only ended up spending about 15 minutes total to clean it up (and it was cleaning up, *not* resculpting). I'm not saying finecast doesn't have problems I'm just pointing out mine have never been hard to fix and a few bubbles are not enough to cry for a refund. I am a lazy, lazy man but I expect to have to clean models before painting them, even plastic requires some work.

I like how you avoid the re-sculpting part

**Pacific**

Very well made post Tyrannosaurus. I think regarding work needed on metal, of course there was often some work gap filling and pinning, but the issue I take umbridge with is having to re-sculpt detail on a mini. Arguably that is the difference between having someone like Jes Goodwin spend a week sculpting a mini, and my own cack-handed attempts to make even simple things with green stuff. I like to think that when buying a mini you are paying for the sculptor's skill and effort in making something, having to re-sculpt some of that detail yourself because of the medium used to reproduce it is unacceptable.

The selling point of Finecast being able to show sharper detail is nonsense - the Corvus Belli Infinity miniatures (in metal, at cheaper price than GW resin) blow most of GW's stuff out of the water. So, it is possible to surmise that the change has been made entirely for the bottom line. That we are more than a year into FC's release, and people are still reporting problems, shows exactly how much the current management of GW care about their customer base. We know there are solutions to the FC problems - indeed, several posters with casting knowledge have commented in these threads, and many of us know from experience that other companies manage it. But the decision makers at GW are obviously not prepared to make the investment that would solve them, and this is despite the changes to the cheaper material.

However, I think the comments Fetterkey has made regarding this being akin to an 'internet feeding frenzy', growing off all the negativity, are not groundless. After all, FC has had a negative reaction since launch, but was also caught up in the 'summer of terror' last year when GW seemed to be doing everything possible to anger its fan base. But, it is up to GW now to turn that poor perception around by producing a product that can restore some of their reputation. Consider a car maker such as Skoda which, in Europe at least, used to have an appalling reputation. As a child, the playground was full of Skoda jokes, and any kids who were unfortunate to be in a Skoda driving family were mocked remorselessly. However, 15 years or so later, and the company is winning 'car of the year' awards. But, I think it took a lot of years of producing good cars before that public perception changed. Not that I'm suggesting GW should start using VW engines as well, and hand over it's resin casting to someone else?

I think a lot of the problem is that some of the people who have had problems with FC have been overly hyperbolic in their condemnation, so it begins to sound more like some kind of character assassination of GW rather than a measured complaint. This then in turn helps to create a polarising effect, so the debate starts to sound much more personal in nature. It shouldn't be - presumably we are all fans of miniature wargaming, and in broad terms probably want the same thing: good quality miniatures. Now the exact description of 'good' might fall in different places for each of us, but that doesn't mean we should resort to angry retorts and raised tempers.

I believe the community as a whole needs to get together on this. Let GW know that their fans are not just those within the 18-month consumer cycle, and are in fact life long followers with a deep investment in the company and it's prospects. Some kind of letter template would be ideal!

**mattyrm**

Dravenguild wrote:

If this is one thing that teaches us, it's that this is the reason GW is getting bolder with screwing the customers over, because a good majority roll over and drop trousers.

Hah!

The hater posts on here are laugh out loud funny. So because you don't mind putting 20 minutes work into a model (the emp champ clearly wasn't that bad either, where did you get a couple of hours from?) you like "dropping your trousers" for people?

I have bought clothes, loads of times (cos being a typical lazy bloke I never try anything on) and when I have got home and realised they dont fit, simply threw them in my wardrobe and said "Ah ill exchange that one day" and a few years later, it gets given to the charity shop.

Thats the way a great many people are, basically I want to know why you think its acceptable to fully insult people that disagree with you, and why on earth people feel the need to defend themselves to you?

I STILL haven't bought a finecast model, but If I do and I don't bother to take it back because it needs a very small amount of work to fix, that's less hassle than going all the way back to GW and fething about anyway. Regardless, that's my prerogative, so why don't you drop your gak keyboard warrior attitude and leave people to their own devices.

Like or dislike, hate or don't, nobody should feel the need to justify their opinions to a very small, very ill tempered little crowd on dakka who feel its acceptable to mock and bully people who arent as tight fisted, bitter and ill tempered as they are.

**Dravenguild**

We could sit here and discuss at length many things, but that's just sugarcoating things.

If people buy finecast, complain about the quality but grumble and fix it despite some of these abominations being like some of the casts I have seen then I can't take them seriously.

I want to see conviction, I respect that people have their opinions and how they spend their money but it personally disgusts me to see how easily people are willing to accept the lowest denominator in order to avoid a confrontation or call to GWCS. I think I feel most strongly because this permeates into many real world interactions I witness on a day to day basis.

It's not a matter of them wondering why they should defend themselves from me, like many things they and you can choose to disregard my opinion whenever appropriate. I feel it's a matter of respecting yourself enough to not accept crap as the status quo, I just feel that people are too easily pushed over these days or too lazy to care.

That's my opinion, I feel having a backbone is having conviction to say "no" and not just "it's an easy fix".

And I reckon with the amount of keyboard warrioring I do someday I may catch up to you mattyrm, but remember! There can be only one =)

**FabricatorGeneralMike**

mattyrm wrote:
Dravenguild wrote:

If this is one thing that teaches us, it's that this is the reason GW is getting bolder with screwing the customers over, because a good majority roll over and drop trousers.

Hah!

The hater posts on here are laugh out loud funny. So because you don't mind putting 20 minutes work into a model (the emp champ clearly wasn't that bad either, where did you get a couple of hours from?) you like "dropping your trousers" for people?

I have bought clothes, loads of times (cos being a typical lazy bloke I never try anything on) and when I have got home and realised they dont fit, simply threw them in my wardrobe and said "Ah ill exchange that one day" and a few years later, it gets given to the charity shop.

Thats the way a great many people are, basically I want to know why you think its acceptable to fully insult people that disagree with you, and why on earth people feel the need to defend themselves to you?

I STILL haven't bought a finecast model, but If I do and I don't bother to take it back because it needs a very small amount of work to fix, that's less hassle than going all the way back to GW and fething about anyway. Regardless, that's my prerogative, so why don't you drop your gak keyboard warrior attitude and leave people to their own devices.

Like or dislike, hate or don't, nobody should feel the need to justify their opinions to a very small, very ill tempered little crowd on dakka who feel its acceptable to mock and bully people who arent as tight fisted, bitter and ill tempered as they are.

Just because I don't find the quailty of Finecast acceptable doesn't mean that I am a GW hater. It was a lot of other things ( a somethings while I worked there) that turned me into a not so big fan of the current GW.

I think Mattys been into the pints again haven't cha

Personally if moving to another company's games and models makes me a tightwad then so be it. GW doesn't want my money and I don't want to give it to them it's a win-win for both of us. =o]

**TedNugent**

Here's a thought, maybe if you regard your money is such a frivolous fashion, I'm guessing because you're Richie Rich or a Carnegie, maybe you could give that cash directly to charity instead of wasting it on frivolous nonsense.

I'm not even sure how someone who would waste 40 pounds in an offhand way and throw it in the closet and forget that it exists would even have the organizational talent or mental acuity to be trusted with a job that would pay enough to acquire such ridiculous sums of cash that you you could spend lods of emone on plastic figurines and still have hours left over to meticulously craft repairs on tiny resin models for war games.

Is there some job farm out there that I don't know about, and where do I get in on this ridiculous deal? There's some job out there that hires gullible blowhards and pays you way too much and gives you hours a day off so you can sit around and paste together resin models?

I'm willing to bet untruths were said and misrepresentations were made. I believe this thread has been infiltrated by the public relations department. Maybe that's where you're getting all this throwaway cash/time.

**mattyrm**

TedNugent wrote:Is there some job farm out there that I don't know about, and where do I get in on this ridiculous deal? There's some job out there that hires gullible blowhards and pays you way too much and gives you hours a day off so you can sit around and paste together resin models?.

Yes mate, Green Berets, 32 weeks basic training, apply at your local armed forces careers office, get your hair cut. Dont be a pussy. 99.99% Need not apply.

TedNugent wrote:I'm willing to bet untruths were said and misrepresentations were made.Maybe that's where you're getting all this throwaway cash/time.

Sigh, I told you I still havent bought any finecast, I have plenty to work through anyway, I was merely saying that if its ok for haters to attack everyone else then I reserve the right to sling some mud right back.

I'm not even remotely a "white knight" either! The hobby doesn't actually take up enough of my life to warrant spending inordinate amounts of money on it. But you lot seem to have drawn a line in the sand and decided that your either a fanboi or a hater and nothing else, when the actual figures are something like this 10% - WK 10% Haters 80% Normal fething humans that don't get ridiculously aggressive over their miniature fictional soldiers.
Finecast is clearly flawed, and clearly you should take back a genuinely fethed model, but there is a difference between that and going crazy ape gak over a very slightly flawed model, or insulting people who happen to want to keep their model because it requires very little work!

Its you guys that are opening your yaps and being belligerent. I dont see any "white knights" going ape gak at people who DON'T want to buy GW. Do you see them raiding a Mantic or Warmachine thread and throwing fething abuse at people who happen to want to keep playing their games of choice? Nobody gives a gak! But you and your pals come in here and throw verbal at people who say "Yeah I am keeping my model" as per these gems.

Grimtuff wrote:
I'm speechless.
If you want to take it lying down from GW then be my guest

Dravenguild wrote:It's to be expected Grimtuff, GW knows that for all the ranting and raving, there will still be the majority that uphold the status quo, we know this as "battered wife syndrome". As long as we stick to our principles and avoid finecast like the plague it is the better.
If this is one thing that teaches us, it's that this is the reason GW is getting bolder with screwing the customers over, because a good majority roll over and drop trousers.

"Oh yeah! We have principles!"

"Yeah bro! Were so awesome! Look at these loser white knights!"

Do me a favour.

Don't buy any more GW, I don't care, I don't have any stock. Seriously, just stop. Leave the thread, sell your models and get the feth off home. Do you think that even remotely bothers the 90% of normal humans that post on this board? They have their own lives to worry about. . Just stop buying and stop playing, If we dont know you, we don't care either way, I just don't like watching you guys virtually bully people because they didnt take their models back to the toy store.

Regards this bit..

TedNugent wrote:I believe this thread has been infiltrated by the public relations department.

Your gaking me aren't you? Do you honestly think normal blokes who happen to have a little less bile than you are working for Games Workshop PLC?

My post was simply a retort to some of the abuse meted out to people that disagree with you and opt to keep a slightly flawed model. If you cant take a retort without breaking out the tin-foil hat, then don't come in here and gang up on people and throw verbal abuse at them, then accuse anyone who dares disagree with you of being Jervis Johnsons secret love child or Matt Wards proxy internet alter ego. Its flat out ridiculous. Seriously, your fething embarrassing yourselves.

**Backfire**

tyrannosaurus wrote:Just thought I'd add my tuppence...

I think people are in danger of getting nostalgic about the quality of metal minis - my army has a large amount of metal in it [oblits, daemon princes, noise marine conversion packs, dreadnaughts etc.] and the quality of the metal casts is, overall, pretty poor - obviously not bubbles, but a lot of the pieces just don't fit together very well, in particular the oblits and DPs which have big gaps, e.g. between the torso and legs, arm and torso, and the weapons that attach onto the oblits hands.

Yeah, definitely. One thing which I hate in metal figs is how almost everything which is supposed to be straight is warped - I've never seen good Broadside railguns, for example. If Finecast can fix that (I have no idea if it does, I don't own any Finecast minis), then more power to them, I say. Of course I am not saying that Finecast doesn't have real problems, but many of the supposed 'defects' are similar what you saw in metal figures routinely, or completely non-existent (hysteria over Finecast melting in the sun).

**TedNugent**

mattyrm wrote:

Yes mate, Green Berets, 32 weeks basic training, apply at your local armed forces careers office, get your hair cut. Dont be a pussy. 99.99% Need not apply.

I didn't know the US Marines operated out of the UK.

**winterdyne**

I had a nice mail from one of the web team earlier, after I posted that I was concerned about the GD miniature for this year - in short, you buy it at the show, it's Finecast. There'll be a horde of impatient neckbeards behind you, so it's not the best place to keep opening models for a decent one. I think that myself and another painter I know may nut up (or get drunk enough if my wife agrees to drive home) to play the 'not good enough, another please' game for a bit.

Anyway, they mentioned that I frequently post on FB with issues about Finecast (which I do), and asked nicely if they could help. I genuinely like a lot of the folks that work for GW, so I try not to be an arse to them.

I felt like pushing on my little 'want a good one' crusade so I sent this email back. Please note, I do this because I disapprove of the poor quality and have the time to do so, and because I find my trophy pile of replacement Marines a reassuring and comfortable place to rest my weary head. :-p I'm honestly quite intrigued to see what response, if any, I get from this.

Hi [NAME REMOVED],

Not sure how you can help, although I do appreciate the offer, so thank you for taking the time to drop me a mail. I was supposed to be getting a call back from CS about a checked miniature. That was a few days ago now. I mentioned the specific problems I was looking for to them, and I guess they’re having trouble finding a model that doesn’t have them. I am not surprised.

So yes, I have issues with Finecast – not just one model in particular. The casting quality, even compared to the garage-level casts I have produced for me is frankly appalling. There is no excuse for poor checking of production casts, and bubbles that eliminate details that require resculpting (not just minor surface filling) are not something I would expect in what is supposed to be, and is certainly priced as, a high quality product range.

I’m up to my 6th replacement on the way for the 25th anniversary marine, and I’m yet to receive one that’s even reparable to a state where I could be confident of it taking a GD-worthy paintjob. Flaws range from softened detail through to outright voids, with pretty much everything in between.

I got through 9 Captain Sterns before giving up, one of which I worked up as a public example – it required over 20 separate greenstuff fixes. On a single miniature. Several of these involved resculpting detail at an unacceptable level – circular lenses on armour that had warped so far out of true as to be very obvious ovals, the face (!), correction of warping on straight edges etc, etc.

The Emperor’s Champion I did had a warp on the sword that was very difficult to correct – even after multiple heat / cool settings. Other than that, out of more than a dozen models going through my hands, it was the only one I’d judge as an acceptable cast.

The problems I see are apparently and in my honest opinion, systemic. Mixing resin too fast when not degassing will result in bubbles. Too fast a pour (I guess spin speed being too high before poor) can result in trapped air and voiding. Pulling the part from the mould too soon results in post-pull warping and then curing which will put a persistent ‘memory’ on the part (not really acceptable). Running the moulds after damage (yes, I see that pink stuff on miniatures and know exactly what it is) will result in loss of detail, often in a critical area.

Let’s not mention that the material itself can’t self-support (especially when warmed) for certain designs, such as the commonly saggy Mangler Squigs. A different resin / production process is needed for those, unless the customers are expected to perform complex reinforcement work by cutting the model up and inserting a metal reinforcement pin along the length of the part before reassembling and sculpting over the cuts.

I’d be willing to bet several pints that the majority of these issues would go away with a lower production quota. Forgeworld use the same resin and technique, but with a lower production quota, and from most accounts I’ve seen (I’ve no personal experience with FW products of this type) they’ve got a lower incidence of problems. I understand of course that for a set release date, with a global distribution model as it is, high-volume production is a necessity, but this simply isn’t working as well as it should.

I’m very concerned about the GD mini. It’s a lovely sculpt, and I’m almost positive it’ll be borked when I buy it. Not a good mindset to be in about what’s supposed to be a special memento of Games Day.

I’m sure all these issues are known and understood, I just honestly feel that GW (as a company, not as any particular individual in it) is ignoring them in the hope that the returns / replacement expense is covered by the saving in materials, regardless of the products being stocked actually being fit for the purpose they’re sold (miniatures for wargaming and painting), and regardless of the limitations of the material itself. I know that if my children were to purchase Finecast, they would not be able to produce anything like the images portrayed in White Dwarf without first being taught how to sculpt, and even then the time it takes is far beyond what it should be for products in this price range. Conversely, they are perfectly capable of cleaning up and assembling plastic kits, resin from Black Scorpion or basic infantry from Forgeworld. Some flash, some mould lines, and a lick of liquid putty and the job should be done.

Feel free to forward this on to whoever you think might want to read it, I’m fairly certain it’ll be ignored utterly anyway.

**filbert**

Well at least good on you for composing and sending your thoughts in a mature, logical and constructive fashion. It might be hoping against hope but maybe, just maybe the 'water torture' effect of complaint emails/letters might cause someone to sit up and take some notice.

**winterdyne**

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

**Howard A Treesong**

How many of the gamesday figure can one person buy, are they limited to just the one?

**winterdyne**

I'd presume it's limited to one per ticket, that was they way it used to be.

**treadhead1944**

TedNugent wrote:
mattyrm wrote:

Yes mate, Green Berets, 32 weeks basic training, apply at your local armed forces careers office, get your hair cut. Dont be a pussy. 99.99% Need not apply.

I didn't know the US Marines operated out of the UK.

The Royal Marines, the model that The US Marines were based on. Also there are several US Navy ships permanently based out of the UK, therefore US Marines operate out of the UK. Final point is a question... Why are you antagonizing him? You both have points that are equally valid. You both expressed them with varying degrees of clarity. Then everyone had to show the world that they live under a bridge and don't trust billygoats.

**Sidstyler**

TedNugent wrote:I didn't know the US Marines operated out of the UK.

Green Berets are British Military, too. And according to Wikipedia it isn't even the US Marines that wear them, rather Army Special Forces.

That's the only thing I really feel like commenting on right now, everything else is too stupid and I'm too tired.

**helium42**

mattyrm wrote:

I STILL haven't bought a finecast model, but If I do and I don't bother to take it back because it needs a very small amount of work to fix, that's less hassle than going all the way back to GW and fething about anyway. Regardless, that's my prerogative, so why don't you drop your gak keyboard warrior attitude and leave people to their own devices.

Like or dislike, hate or don't, nobody should feel the need to justify their opinions to a very small, very ill tempered little crowd on dakka who feel its acceptable to mock and bully people who arent as tight fisted, bitter and ill tempered as they are.

Yeah, you haven't bought a finecast model, so why are you trolling a thread about finecast? You claim that these models are easy to fix. How do you know without ever having purchased them or worked on them? Sounds like you're pulling that statement out of your ass. I have bought finecast models, and let me tell you, they required a lot more work than could be done in twenty minutes. Many people are disappointed with this product. Most of us have a lot of money, time, and love invested in GW and it makes it that much harder to swallow. So we vent here, in our little wargaming community. You seem bothered by that fact, yet you continue to troll these finecast threads, telling us how wrong we are for venting. If it bothers you so much why don't you go follow any of the other hundreads of threads not dealing with finecast?