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I think the “confusion/gamey attempts” all come down to what is, and isn’t, classed as “reinforcements” and/or “reserves” based on the wording of the latest FAQ doc.

I agree 100% though that the intention remains that they cannot warptime after DMC.

I’ll try to find the references shortly, but I think it’s just another case of GWs inability to use consistent terminology.

 grouchoben wrote:
The guy is dead wrong. Here's the relevant passages from the FAQ:

1
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the
battlefield as reinforcements.
...
2
Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g... because of a psychic power such as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline[?]
A: No.

... DMC clearly falls under the range of abilities referred to in 1, and 2 clearly forbids further movement that turn for units that are effected by such powers.

what i just said

 grouchoben wrote:


1
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.

While I can find this question/answer in the old FAQ, I cannot find it in the most recent FAQ. I think your info is outdated. Here's how it reads in the most current rules.

Big FAQ 2 wrote:
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes.

There's no mention any longer of treating them as reinforcements, so your #2 quote, which directly applies to reinforcements ("such a unit" = one that has been " set up on the battlefield as reinforcements"), does not apply.

Can someone else give this rules quandry a try? It appears my opponent was correct and you are allowed to DMC a unit and subsequently Warptime that same unit.

To be fair, i can't find the reference to it anymore either, within the FAQ documents.

The only other source i can think of right now, is possibily that whole facebook picture thing they did. (but i don't think that said anything about it iirc)

So, currently, RAW, as per the updated FAQs, it appears we can DMC and Warptime that unit of Tzaangors, so, even a double 1 won't fail the charge.

Bah, its not like we needed that cheese. We already have

Deamon prince + wings + warptime + aetherstride

And

Tzaangor + breyhorn + cp reroll + gaze of fate reroll

To get 2 different units in asap. All this does is let us switch the dp to a second tzaangor squad.

You're right. My information is out of date, and the FAQ has substantially changed. I don't like the change I have to say, but there it is!

Uh... huh. Yeah, I completely missed that change when the FAQ came out. So the DMC is no longer considered to be reinforcements... Well, that certainly makes things less confusing if nothing else.

hey guys i'm new to TS and wondering if my TS Daemon prince can benefit from the changecaster's strength buff?

Kdash wrote:
I agree with a lot of the points here – both negative and positive in favour of things like Rubric squads.

If you plan on using a big squad of 20 Rubric, then, based off my experience I’d only run 1 squad of them total. Yes, they can be a massive pain to deal with for a lot of people, but they also have a few issues with them.
1. They are slow. Yes, you can DMC them or Webway them, but, after that, on terrain heavy tables they often find themselves out of position after the initial strike. Unfortunately, it all put forces you into taking Warptime, which I’ve found recently, can be more of a hinderance at times. Webway also has the additional impact of it forcing you to wait til turn 2 before you can do anything.
2. Any form of AP hurts them, 1 damage weapon or not. At the end of the day, they are a 1W, T4 model that sometimes gets a 2+ save outside of cover (likely won’t be getting it at all for a 20-man squad). The moment AP -1 comes into play though, they die just like any other marine, which is unfortunately, far too quickly.
3. They are a small-mid ranged unit, with fantastic bolters, but, hurt the moment they get tagged in combat. Sure, they can tarpit a unit, but, often it can feel like they are the unit being tarpitted themselves.

Only to a point, though, right? IIRC, All is Dust improves both a Rubric's normal and invulnerable saves. So (assuming Weaver and/or Glamour aren't buffing the Rubric), against an AP0 D1 weapon, a Rubric has a 2+/4++ save. Against an AP-1 D1 weapon, a Rubric still has a better saving throw than a normal MEQ (3+ vs 4+), and against AP-2 D1 or higher (if there are any weapons like that), the Rubric will still get a 4++, while other MEQs would basically be toast.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quick question: Let's say you put Ahriman on a Disc, and then buff Ahriman with the +1 Strength and -1 AP effects from a Mutalith. Do those buffs also affect the Disc's Blades? I'm inclined to say no, but I just wanted to check.

 orangebrushminiatures wrote:
hey guys i'm new to TS and wondering if my TS Daemon prince can benefit from the changecaster's strength buff?

yes it can

I know that regular Tzaangors, Enlightened, and Shamans have 40k rules (at least, I know that regular Tzaangors do), but do Skyfires do as well?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I know that regular Tzaangors, Enlightened, and Shamans have 40k rules (at least, I know that regular Tzaangors do), but do Skyfires do as well?

They do. Instead of being different datasheets Enlightened in 40k can take bows and therefore represent the Skyfire model.

Brian888 wrote:

Kdash wrote:
I agree with a lot of the points here – both negative and positive in favour of things like Rubric squads.

If you plan on using a big squad of 20 Rubric, then, based off my experience I’d only run 1 squad of them total. Yes, they can be a massive pain to deal with for a lot of people, but they also have a few issues with them.
1. They are slow. Yes, you can DMC them or Webway them, but, after that, on terrain heavy tables they often find themselves out of position after the initial strike. Unfortunately, it all put forces you into taking Warptime, which I’ve found recently, can be more of a hinderance at times. Webway also has the additional impact of it forcing you to wait til turn 2 before you can do anything.
2. Any form of AP hurts them, 1 damage weapon or not. At the end of the day, they are a 1W, T4 model that sometimes gets a 2+ save outside of cover (likely won’t be getting it at all for a 20-man squad). The moment AP -1 comes into play though, they die just like any other marine, which is unfortunately, far too quickly.
3. They are a small-mid ranged unit, with fantastic bolters, but, hurt the moment they get tagged in combat. Sure, they can tarpit a unit, but, often it can feel like they are the unit being tarpitted themselves.

Only to a point, though, right? IIRC, All is Dust improves both a Rubric's normal and invulnerable saves. So (assuming Weaver and/or Glamour aren't buffing the Rubric), against an AP0 D1 weapon, a Rubric has a 2+/4++ save. Against an AP-1 D1 weapon, a Rubric still has a better saving throw than a normal MEQ (3+ vs 4+), and against AP-2 D1 or higher (if there are any weapons like that), the Rubric will still get a 4++, while other MEQs would basically be toast.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quick question: Let's say you put Ahriman on a Disc, and then buff Ahriman with the +1 Strength and -1 AP effects from a Mutalith. Do those buffs also affect the Disc's Blades? I'm inclined to say no, but I just wanted to check.

They are more durable against AP on 1 damage weapons than regular marines, but, the point I was making was that a 3+ save with 1 wound, still results in marines dying quickly. The moment you’re forced to start making 3+ or 4+/4++ saving throws, you’re already losing models that you can’t really afford to lose, especially at 20 ppm. Rate of fire is such a big factor in 8th ed right now, and marine statlines just can’t cope with it very well. Rubrics have the advantage of being able to blob up to a squad of 20, and thus requires a hell of a lot of fire to be focused their way, but, on the flip side of that, they become a more viable target for that amount of dedication – whereas you can easily expect to just blow up a tac squad without a second thought, due to it only being 5 models strong.

A prime example of expectation and reality is squads of Vanguard Vets with stormshields, so they rock the set 3++. Yes, they can be a complete pain to remove when they are squads of 8-10 but they still get removed from the table far quicker than they reasonably should do.

Azuza001 wrote:
...

Tzaangor + breyhorn + cp reroll + gaze of fate reroll...

In my Point of View you cant use cp + Gaze. With Gaze you Need to reroll the whole dice Roll, andere you cant reroll a die twice.

Since charging is two dice, you can use Gaze to reroll one and the stratagem to reroll the other. Gotta be real unlucky to want to burn both of your rerolls on an 8" charge, but if you need it...

Gaze of Fate states you can reroll a dice Roll, Not reroll a single die. AS you Need to use the cp reroll (which states you can reroll a dice) first per faq, i think you need decide to use cp Roll for one die or Gaze of Fate to reroll the whole Charge Roll

I see how you guys are reading it, i read it as a single dice roll ment 1 dice. My local meta runs it that way as well (both other tzeentch players have been playing it as 1 dice roll). I will bring it up with them and see what we decide as a group.

I mean, if its interpreted the way your talking the word single doesn't even need to be in the sentence at all because it would mean the same thing.

gaze of fate is 1 SINGLE die never seen nowhere in any kind of tournament they force you to re roll both (and i played a lot)

Yeah, after looking at it more its a single dice roll, as in one. I talked to a few others and everyone i have talked to (granted just local meta guys) say the same thing, it says single, its one.

Here is the discussion about Gaze of Fate on dakka: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/765777.page

Play as you like, but it say reroll the roll and until a FAQ i will play it the way that i will reroll the whole roll.

A power that allows you to reroll a single dice? I think I'll take that to mean it allows you to reroll a single dice.

 grouchoben wrote:
A power that allows you to reroll a single dice? I think I'll take that to mean it allows you to reroll a single dice.

It doesn't say "a single dice" but "a single dice ROLL". I'm not a native english speaker that's why I asked about it in YMDC, but the more I read it the more it feels obvious to me - based on the errata / FAQ - that we're meant to re-roll both dice for a charge roll (and maybe even Psychic test).

There's a rumor circulating that the GKs are getting normal Smite back. I wonder if the same is in the offing for Aspiring Sorcerers. It'd certainly go some way towards incentivizing more use of Rubrics.

MSU Rubrics would still hold up due to Morale, but no I don't think it'll change for Aspiring Sorcerers. The fact that GK can literally use it with each model is where the issue stems from. If the GK gets buffed considerably, their ability to spam mortal wounds will far exceed any reasonable measure.

Brian888 wrote:
There's a rumor circulating that the GKs are getting normal Smite back. I wonder if the same is in the offing for Aspiring Sorcerers. It'd certainly go some way towards incentivizing more use of Rubrics.

The question is if all GK units are getting normal smite or if it's just the HQ's. If it's the former then Rubrics will probably share in the wealth, but if it's the latter then they're just buffing GK's into parity with us.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Brian888 wrote:
There's a rumor circulating that the GKs are getting normal Smite back. I wonder if the same is in the offing for Aspiring Sorcerers. It'd certainly go some way towards incentivizing more use of Rubrics.

The question is if all GK units are getting normal smite or if it's just the HQ's. If it's the former then Rubrics will probably share in the wealth, but if it's the latter then they're just buffing GK's into parity with us.

The rumors suggest that it's going to be a change to Rites of Banishment, which seems to mean that it'll be an army-wide change for the GKs.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:


1
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.

While I can find this question/answer in the old FAQ, I cannot find it in the most recent FAQ. I think your info is outdated. Here's how it reads in the most current rules.

Big FAQ 2 wrote:
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes.

There's no mention any longer of treating them as reinforcements, so your #2 quote, which directly applies to reinforcements ("such a unit" = one that has been " set up on the battlefield as reinforcements"), does not apply.

Can someone else give this rules quandry a try? It appears my opponent was correct and you are allowed to DMC a unit and subsequently Warptime that same unit.

just because the "treat them as reinforcements" was removed does not change the fact that they are still considered reinforcements.

they where considered reinforcements before either of these where put into the faq. pointing out that this has changed is irrelevant, because if i was a new player and went to view the faq their is no way for me to view the old faq from gw's page and have this prior knowledge.

reinforcements are clearly defined in the main rule book, as being setup on the battlefield mid turn. and different from tactical reserves.

you can also use stratagems like auspex scan and forwarned on units that have been DMC or da jumped etc. this alone is enough argument to make a clear case as to if they are considered reinforcements or not.

N...no? If GW removed the text that indicates they are treated as reinforcements then they are no longer treated as reinforcements. I dunno how we're supposed to play this game if we're going off the assumption that a change in the errata doesn't change the way the rules are played.

The key word is set up. If it says set up - you can be auspex scanned AND you can't move again in the movement phase.

Y...yes. if i just started playing the game and went to look at the current faq, then all i would be able to see is the current one that says, yes. which is telling you they do count as having moved for the purposes of shooting heavy weapons.

then i would look at the rule book under reinforcements to see what that applies to and those rules apply to things have been set up mid turn, such as DMC, da jump, gate of infinity, personal teleporters.
you are removing them from the battlefield and setting them up mid turn. the text on DMC says remove from battlefield and set up.

how do you resolve the fact that strats such as auspex scan and forwarned allow you to shoot at things being set up,(coming in as reinforcements).
if they are not reinforcements then you cant shoot at them, but the faq says that you can shoot them so therefor they are reinforcements.