Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sword and Shield Lychguard are vastly superior to Pretorians at the moment, it would take some hefty point changes to alter that.
10 of each seems the most sensible option though, everything comes around eventually.

 p5freak wrote:

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
From my experience with this edition Wraith really suffer from the 4+ WS.

No, they dont. 3 attacks on 3+ is 2 hits. 4 attacks on 4+ is 2 hits.

The problem with this equation is not the math it is the assumption that 2 hits are as valuable as they once were. If everything is getting stronger and you remain the same that means you have gotten weaker. Especially with the codex creep, we are experiencing.

we should be whining about the dire avengers making fun of warriors.

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
we should be whining about the dire avengers making fun of warriors.

Why? You could be whining about Deathshroud Terminators making fun of Warriors, that'd make more sense since that is a unit currently seeing play. The new Craftworlds codex isn't out so you don't for sure know the rules, even with the rumours it seems they will have totally different roles. A hard-hitting medium-ranged glass cannon Elites unit vs a hard-hitting close-ranged durable Troops unit.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Sword and Shield Lychguard are vastly superior to Pretorians at the moment, it would take some hefty point changes to alter that.
10 of each seems the most sensible option though, everything comes around eventually.

Without inv. save, Praetorians are rather vulnerable.
With relentless expansionist, Lychguard are not that slow if they head midfield.
I'd use Lychguard w/ shields over Praetorians any day.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
we should be whining about the dire avengers making fun of warriors.

Why? You could be whining about Deathshroud Terminators making fun of Warriors, that'd make more sense since that is a unit currently seeing play. The new Craftworlds codex isn't out so you don't for sure know the rules, even with the rumours it seems they will have totally different roles. A hard-hitting medium-ranged glass cannon Elites unit vs a hard-hitting close-ranged durable Troops unit.

point costs are closer, and durabiltiy only matters when you are threatening enough, which the dire avengers will be.
And if DA get a 5++ they are almost as durable.

how credible are these and what will you change in your army?

I might go 18 Skorpekh and some Ophidians with Anrakyr.

Was hoping for more than just 5 points for lokhust heavy destroyer. And -40 for the "Craftworld Obelisk..." Yeah add insult to injury.

Psychocouac wrote:
Was hoping for more than just 5 points for lokhust heavy destroyer. And -40 for the "Craftworld Obelisk..." Yeah add insult to injury.

The good thing is nothing went up in points. But because the HQ's are still a massive Tax, the Necron future might be to pay 3 CP for specialised detachements of destroyers.

 Manchild 1984 wrote:

Psychocouac wrote:
Was hoping for more than just 5 points for lokhust heavy destroyer. And -40 for the "Craftworld Obelisk..." Yeah add insult to injury.

The good thing is nothing went up in points. But because the HQ's are still a massive Tax, the Necron future might be to pay 3 CP for specialised detachements of destroyers.

The article is called point drops. Just because some Necron units are going down in points, doesn't mean that other won't go up.

picture 4 had points increases. But let's say they do increase the points on Lords or warrios, then my statement is even better.

Our points drops seem to be pretty comparable to others point drops. Which is pretty not good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
However. If hive guard went up 5 per there is no way in hell wraiths are moving up 15 per. Probably 5. So my one unit of skorpekh and one unit of wraiths are going to wash out.

I can't see Wraiths going to 40 if Skorpekh are 30, at 35 they still seem a bit outcompeted.

Yes, yes, I can domin/work with this! I wonder if our ghost arks will get a 10 point decrease because it shares the doomsday chassis and it is a means of transport like the night scythe.

Doom Scythes at 180 which is the exact same price as the admech's stratoraptor. For a flyer point cost wise it is where it should be but it's still not an optimal choice.

Night Scythes at 130 is our biggest winner! This thing is only 5 more points than an annihilation barge, I plan on using 2 in my list! The strongest stratagem in our codex is prismatic dimensional breach! Normally we can't take advantage of it due to it being a gimmicky one-trick pony stratagem. With 2 Night Scythes, your options double as your opponent will have to take out both of them compared to one. The number of core units has changed Necron Flayed Ones, Skorpekh Destroyers, and Lokhust Destroyers can use the stratagem or be transported. For 260 points we have some serious mobility shenanigans.

Doomsday ark at 160 makes it a good vehicle. The cannon is still underwhelming but think of it like this. It has the gauss firepower of 10 warriors which is 130 points, so you are paying 40 points for the cannon that needs a d3+3 profile. The reason why it is good is the thing has 14 wounds with quantum shielding. I think at 160 it may be one of the most durable vehicles in the game.

Skorpekh destroyers at 30 points are excellent. 90 points for a unit that on average can kill 5 primaris marines I will take it!

The Ophydian Destroyers are an interesting choice, they may have a role for objectives. 90 points to have a unit that hides and gathers engage on all fronts, using the stratagem to relocate you can increase the size of the unit and use them for the new ROD.

Lokhust Destroyers at 45 points is good, for 135 points you get 9 str 6 ap 3 d3 d shots. With them being core they benefit from MWBD and their shots become near auto-hits due to re-rolls from hardwired. 270 points for a squad of 6 is not back-breaking and is a unit we can rely on to do the heavy lifting, especially when combined with the re-roll wound stratagem.

Lokhust Heavy Destroyers you were once 70 points now you are 55! A unit of 3 is only 165 points compared to 2 Ironstriders with cognis-lascannon at 170! A reliable anti-tank option that doesn't break the bank. With the destroyer point decrease, they recognize we needed more firepower and the Lokhust destroyers gives us that.

The Monolith is now in the same range as our C'tan at 330. I don't like the size and lack of fly. I think it can work now but not an optimal choice. The other big boy options are still to many points.

30 point decrease to you know who the only thing I have to say is "ALL HAIL THE SILENT KING"!

Maxing destroyers seems the way to go. Tough choice will be HQ's and if we need anything besides destroyers.

Do you think they will give us some more love?

 CKO wrote:
Do you think they will give us some more love?

could be, but I cannot make a good guess. I would not have guessed Skorpekh destroyers going down.

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
how credible are these and what will you change in your army?

I might go 18 Skorpekh and some Ophidians with Anrakyr.

Point drops are not bad but vastly irrelevant for competitive play.
The only exception is the Silent King.

Heavy Lokhusts getting a drop is helpful for competitive lists. The big question is will any of Characters or the original core units get drops? A point or two off Warriors / Immortals / Lychguard / Tomb Blades could be significant. Same for HQs and C'tan.

Point costs are almost everything, noone will convince me otherwise

Well that’s about as close minded as it gets.

Points changes don’t fix broken mechanics. Reanimation is just not good. Protocols are just awful.

Making the doom scythe cheaper is great but if it’s still t6 with no quantum shielding and the same cost as much better flyers, those points drops are fairly insignificant. Being the same price as the admech flyer is not a win.

It’s a fair chunk of points but it doesn’t “fix” the unit. It might get it on the table but it doesn’t make the unit better. Especially in relation to other flyers that just have better rules.

I’d pay that 20 points every time if I could get quantum shielding. Rules matter more than points.

Points drops are great but if everything is getting cheaper then we are going to stay in the exact same place.

We will have to see the big picture, skorpekh going down is great but if bladeguard go down as well, then we are not gaining on them.

Cauthon wrote:
Well that’s about as close minded as it gets.

Points changes don’t fix broken mechanics. Reanimation is just not good. Protocols are just awful.

Protocols are awful but reanimation is good. Lower your expectations and appreciate the 2-3 models you reanimate. If you think reanimating is supposed to be as good as an invulnerable save you are going to be disappointed. Technomancers can get back around 100 points worth of models a turn. I like ghost arks and often use the stratagem to get back d6 warriors combine with a technomancer who can contribute another d3.

Cauthon wrote:
Making the doom scythe cheaper is great but if it’s still t6 with no quantum shielding and the same cost as much better flyers, those points drops are fairly insignificant. Being the same price as the admech flyer is not a win.

It’s a fair chunk of points but it doesn’t “fix” the unit. It might get it on the table but it doesn’t make the unit better. Especially in relation to other flyers that just have better rules.

The reason for the decrease is to make sure we are not paying more points for similar units. I agree with you that durability with our flyers is a serious issue. I hate that we can only pivot once. I am still excited about Night Scythes at 130 points you can use them to attack small units, and you can use the stratagem to get auto charges for things you put in strategic reserve.

Cauthon wrote:
I’d pay that 20 points every time if I could get quantum shielding. Rules matter more than points.

I would say something negative here but I would be a hypocrite as I have been crying for a d3 + 3 damage profile for the doomsday cannon.

Cauthon wrote:
Points drops are great but if everything is getting cheaper then we are going to stay in the exact same place.

We will have to see the big picture, skorpekh going down is great but if bladeguard go down as well, then we are not gaining on them.

I agree, so far we are the big winners of this chapter approve and we may get more units to go down we shall see.

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
Maxing destroyers seems the way to go. Tough choice will be HQ's and if we need anything besides destroyers.

This is how I feel as well. 3x6 skorp or maybe 2x6 + 1x3, 2x3 LHD, and the Silent King is what I'm thinking of as a starting point with the stuff I have. Probably lots of scarabs and wraiths too.

If reanimation is so good then why should I lower my expectations? Reanimation protocols are fine. They are not good.

I do not think they should be invulns...? Don’t tell me what I think if I didn’t say it. Please.

I think we should be able to change 1 die to a 5 per roll. You should always get at least 1 single wound model back and it shouldn’t be extremely unlikely to get a 3 wound model back.

But that’s wishlisting.

Its our signature move and it’s quite often irrelevant. It’s not useless but it’s not very strong.

My expectations are perfectly low. Sometimes it’s clutch, a lot of times it’s irrelevant.

Making warriors 11 points a model would be awesome but it wouldn’t fix reanimation protocols.

I said if you think, not you think which makes it philosophical. I never said that you think it is like an invulnerable save. I only mentioned invulnerable save because it is not quite as good as one. It is a unique ability that throughout the course of a game several points will be reanimated either normally, techno, ghost ark or via orb. Resulting in 100's of points worth of models coming back.

Reanimation is 'almost' perfect imo.

Old-style "5+ it comes back at the end of the phase if the unit is still around" was worthless, it almost never ever happened as it was so easy to just clear the unit.

7th FNP was ridiculous since it also circumvented insta-sporking rules for FNP, reducing it to a 6+++ instead of denying it entirely. It had no counter, and when it has no counter it gets stupid.

Current is a nice middleground. It still triggers long as the unit didnt die, but its every attack so the odds of it getting wiped out are significantly less than before (yes you usually have that 1 unit that just goes POOF but thats 1 unit not your entire army getting wiped or not hurt at all). Its strong, but counterable.
The issue is it is tied to 'attack' for some stupid reason. I dont even care that its harder for multiwound models to get it im actually fine with it, but not getting RP because a tank blew up near me or someone Spiked Ram'd my unit to cause random out-of-attack mortal wounds is just stupid.
In the past that would have been fine because it wasnt that likely to take heavy damage outside of an attack, but these days its pretty common *cough* Tsons *cough*
If they were to change anything about RP i'd change it to "An effect that caused the unit to suffer damage/mortal wounds is complete..." instead of "after being attacked..."

Protocols are just...lame. They need a full rework which wont ever happen w/o a new codex sadly.

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
Point costs are almost everything, noone will convince me otherwise

How will any amount of pts drops ever fix the two glaring problems I see whenever I look at a Flayed One?
1) Flayed Ones do nothing that I want that I can't do better with something else. And to include them in a list would mean that I had to give up using something I do want to use.
2) I don't spend $ on & waste time playing with sculpts I don't like. Guess what? I've never liked Flayed One sculpts. Not the old metals & not these new plastics.

ccs wrote:

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
Point costs are almost everything, noone will convince me otherwise

How will any amount of pts drops ever fix the two glaring problems I see whenever I look at a Flayed One?
1) Flayed Ones do nothing that I want that I can't do better with something else. And to include them in a list would mean that I had to give up using something I do want to use.
2) I don't spend $ on & waste time playing with sculpts I don't like. Guess what? I've never liked Flayed One sculpts. Not the old metals & not these new plastics.

It's not worth it to do something with a 200 point unit if a 100 point unit can do it better. Flayed Ones can do everything, they can hold objectives, screen the board, take objectives, DS and do actions, kill enemies. That was your regularly unscheduled bit of tactics, you can go back to discussing rumours (although I'd prefer if you did it in another thread because I don't care about rumours).

Flayed Ones being worth bringing comes down entirely to points, the question is how many other models are you leaving at home for each Flayed One you bring. Just say you don't want to play them, don't act like the unit wouldn't be spammed at 9 PPM and insanely OP at 5 pts per model. Why are your opinions on sculpts relevant in a tactics thread? There are alternatives to the official sculpts like proxies and conversions.

I don’t think flayed ones are great for their intended use but a 5 man squad with native deepstrike just got a lot more relevant with the new rod.

Cauthon wrote:
I don’t think flayed ones are great for their intended use but a 5 man squad with native deepstrike just got a lot more relevant with the new rod.

6 man*, don't want to accidentally fail getting data.