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Hi ^___^

I've been collecting Marines for just about forever; but it's been years since I've had a game. To complicate matters, I moved to the US a few years ago, and had to leave pretty much my entire collection behind. I'm finally getting back into the hobby, but pretty much the entirety of 4th edition passed me by and although I know my fluff and my figures, I've got zero idea how to create an even remotely effective army list.

I'm keeping things really simple right now. I've got three tactical squads. The idea is that (even though they are just plain old tac squads) they are each outfitted differently for close, medium, and long-range combat. So here's kind of what I'm thinking:

...

Close-range tactical squad:
1 Sargent with power weapon
1 Special-weapons marine with meltagun
1 Heavy-weapons marine with multi-melta (alternately, heavy bolter)
7 Marines with bayonets

Medium-range tactical squad:
1 Sargent with chainsword
1 Special weapons marine with flamer
1 Heavy-weapons marine with missile launcher
7 Marines etc.

Long-range tactical squad:
1 Sargent with combi-plasmagun
1 Special weapons marine with plasmagun
1 Heavy-weapons marine with lascannon (alternately, plasma cannon)

...

Sooo... is there anything here that I'm doing shockingly wrong? I realise that arming a couple of tactical squads of all things should be a relatively easy affair, but I'm flying completely blind when it comes to actual in-game potential. Is a multi-melta redundant in a squad already carrying a melta-gun? Would it be worth upgrading the chainsword to another power weapon? Should I be giving the third Sargent the combi-plasma, or would a regular bolter suffice? On the one hand I've got points to burn; on the other hand, spending excessively now might come back to bite me in the behind as I start adding to the force.

Also, to note the obvious:

1. I can't really set these guys up to be magnetized or otherwise interchangeable, as I'm trying to bring a real feel of unity to each squad in terms of their armour and other accouterments. So I guess whatever gets picked after this is going to be it.

2. It stands to reason that the loadout of each squad should be defined by their role, but again, I've got no real experience in these matters. I'm just hoping to have a set-up where I can pick the two squads best suited to my needs at the time. Sooo... at this time, I guess all I know is that the long-range squad is going to spend most of its time hanging back and firing. Maybe the one of the other squads should be anti-armour, and one anti-infantry; or perhaps both should be equally balanced? I turn to more enlightened minds than mine for answers.

Hi again ^___^

Well, I've spent some time doing a bit of research and it looks as if the combi-plasmagun is right out. If it says anything about how out of touch I've become with the game, I didn't even realise that combi-weapons could only be used once per game... I can definitely see the advantages of being able to, say, pull out a flamer template when things get rough; but I don't really think I can say the same about a plasmagun, at least not for the points involved.

That shifts the emphasis onto the close-combat and heavy weapons. I'm still thinking that the long-range tac squad is going to carry a lascannon; unless someone knows a better alternative. The short-range tac squad is probably getting the multi-melta; it seems like these guys are going to be more tank-hunting, and the mid-range squad are going to be anti-infantry.

I'm also looking to add a devastator squad for some additional hurt; two heavy bolters, two plasma cannons. I figure that way they can mow down some infantry, armoured or otherwise. Missile launchers might not be a bad choice either, but I need to pick up a few more sprues before that becomes a viable option.

Again - am I nuts for loading out one squad with melta-weaponry, or should I be trying to create something more balanced? (And if said melta-weaponry is as short-ranged as I recall it being, then is there a could mix of close-combat weapons or upgrades I could give the sarge to protect a little against the inevitability of being assaulted?)

All thoughts gleefully welcome.

Well tac squad loadouts are going to be fairly different in the very near future than they are right now.

Right now tac squads should generally be kept to about 5-6 men if they are going to be given a heavy weapon and the sergeant should probably be left without any special equipment. If you plan to use a tac squad for close up shooting, I recommend ten marines with either a melta or flamer (or two if using cleanse and purify) with a sergeant with terminator honors and powerfist.

Thanks for the reply ^_^

Fortunately I've had a chance to look at a preview copy of the new codex at my local game store. Providing nothing changes between whenever it was produced and when the definite article comes out, it looks like tac squads *have* to be ten marines strong if they want any special or heavy weapons. (Having said that, I also understand there's a rule that lets you split them into combat squads at the time of deployment, but I didn't look at that one in any detail alas.)

So it definitely looks like it's going to be ten marines for me.

Thanks for the info though on the Sargent; that's definitely one of my concerns - being the only one in the squad to actually take a close-combat weapon, it could really make or break them in an assault if I choose badly. So - powerfist for the close-range tac sarge. (The more I look at it, the more they seem to be anti-armour anyway; so I'm thinking a powerfist and meltagun could make a nice tank-hunting combo.)

I don't know much about the terminator honours, but it certainly fits with my fluff. Would I be right in thinking maybe it provides an additional attack? I can see how that would be handy for someone wielding a great big bloody powerfist.

In the new codex terminator honours will already be included for the sergeant, under the current codex they are an upgrade that improves the sergeants leadership and attacks.

Also with the new codex I highly recommend avoiding special CC weapons for sergeants on tac squads you plan to break into combat squads as they lack enough bodies to be terribly effective.

See Stelek's thread on SM army for one idea. Seizing objectives is the point of the game now in 2/3 of the missions. Lascannons not as good against tanks as they used to be. Need anti-horde in the Ork heavy environment. Flamers and Meltas? Appreciation of the tactical possibilities of 'Combat Tactics' and Tactical Squads more important than actual weapon load out perhaps.....

Waiting for the new codex but my recommendation is to make them uniform.


1 Vet Sgt
7 Bolters
1 Flamer
1 Missile Launcher

Marines can now get outshot by orks... no one likes flamers and cover saves don't work and I think a spec of dust on a 5th ed table now provides a 4+ cover save. The missile launcher is a good compromise for anti-tank or anti-infantry work and gives you real range. When the battle squads go into effect, you can split into two 5-mans and leave the missile launcher back with 4 bolters while the sergeant, 3 bolters and the flamer look to get close and personal.

It doesn't solve every problem (e.g. carnifexes with 2+ saves and 5 wounds....) but it gives you a good all-around base.

Depending on how you want to expand... rhinos, razorbacks, drop pods or devastators, assault squads or whatever.... you can get more specialized troops. As an alternative, if you want some variation, perhaps give the sergeant a plasma pistol and switch out the flamer for a melta gun and then switch out the missile launcher for the multi-melta.

With the new charts and the cost savings, I would suggest that multi-meltas and melta guns are the superior AT weapons. The downside of course is their range but the charts now reward AP1 weapons and objective games make for less park and shoot.

Personnally, I find the nice add would be a devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters. Relatively cheap and gives you good volume of fire.

As stated, 2/3 of the games are to hold objectives now so definitely you need to kill the troops. IF your opponent has none, he cannot hold an objective so the worst result is a draw if you can't hold one either.

If you are looking to add to your force, get a Black Reach box. 5 terminators, 10 man tac (flamer & missile launcher), 1 dread and a commander. All that for 60$ and we haven't even mentioned the orcs, rule book or fluff in the box with them. That would give you a good fill out to your force.

The tactical squad now gets the flamer for free. It is such a choice weapon in 5th due to negating cover and auto-hit template wounding everything it touches at full strength. Since getting any other special weapon costs additional points, it is therefore not cost effective compared to the flamer. That leaves us with the heavy weapon choice. The muti-melta is clearly the best choice in every way EXCEPT range (free, AP1, 2d6 opportunity).

If you want range, go with the lascannon. I'm not buying the consensus that the missile launcher is better heavy choice than the lascannon. It's still strength 9 compared to strength 8. Tactical combat squads should be your anti-tank. Devs should still be heavy bolter or missile launcher. I understand the dual role capabilty of the missile launcher, but the 5 man tactical lascannon squad still rules. You can always use drop podding sternguard with 2 meltaguns supplemented with cheap combi-meltas to compensate for the multi-meltas poor range.

IMHO, this is the most effective tac squad load-out:

Tac 1x10 w/ flamer, mutli-melta or lascannon
Sergeant w/ powerfist
Razorback w/ heavy bolter turret, searchlight

Well the new Sm codes may change some things up, but here's my take and what combo's I've found work and what doesn't.

First off decide what you want the squad to do. You may not even want a heavy weapon in the squad. If, in the new book we can split squads apart, this will make the decision easier. Putting heavy weapons into squads you plan to have moving for most of the game is a waste. I tend to run the follow configurations:

First squad with Lascannon, plasma rifle. Typical Las/plas squad, sits on my side of the table sniping enemy vehicles or the big nasty armored stuff that starts to get close. I also give the sergeant a combi-plasma, and careful position this squad for that one turn when something nasty gets really close and I rapid fire the combi plasma with the plasma rifle. This does wonders against monstrous creatures.

Second squad gets a plasma cannon. The plasma cannon is great in 5E and does wonders against heavy infantry, is overkill yet effective against hordes as well, and can pop light vehicles. It's a tad on the expensive side but MEQs hate it, so I love it. I think the plasma cannon pairs well with any special weapon, so I'd take the rest of your army list into consideration when choosing it.

Third squad gets a heavy bolter and flamer. This squad is set up for dealing with numbers hordes of troops.

Fourth squad gets a missle launcher and usually a melta gun. Standard practice seams to be to combine missile launchers with flamers, but I think the missle launcher and melta gun gives better all around versatility.

I would take the Plasma Cannon over the Lascannon in the Tactical squad so you can use the bolters.

Why would you be unable to use the bolters in a Las squad? because of the vast difference in range?

With the new codex, all special and heavy weapons are decent for Tac Squads:

Multi-melta are actually good instead of being crap. Las and plasma cannons have their uses. I would go:

Plasma gun , Multi-melta. (Both Same Range)

Flamer, Missle Launcher. (Combat squads)

Melta, Las or Plasma Cannon (Combat squad).

5th ed SM codex is about to roll out and that is going to change everything for the SM player. I myself will be able to shift with ease as I already run combat squad or should I say five men any ways.

Combat squads are going to open the door for the SM army and allow us to pic more gear per say for a better over all optimized list. The reason for this is because as we get closer to smaller games. We then can optimize by buying what we need via combat squads and breaking them up to better fulfill roles.

Wow, what a response! Lots of great advice here, thank you all for your contributions. ^___^

First thing off, I'm glad to hear that an infantry-carried multi-melta is actually a worthwhile addition. I'd love to work one into the force somewhere, and was worried that it was basically going to be a useless addition (i.e. most of the time you are too far away, or moved and therefore cannot fire, or are busy being assaulted.) But if it's got some significant punch to it, then it might be exactly the weapon of choice to upset some heavy armour. I can see a melta-gun and multi-melta being a nice combo; alternately, maybe a flamer and multi-melta. Put a powerfist on the sargent and find a tank to party with.

As for the issue of taking a combi-plasma for the long-range sargent; initially I was put off by the idea that he could only fire it off once per game. However, I was unaware that he could rapid-fire the thing; I'm thinking that if I pair that with another plasma gun and a lascannon... well, I'm rather enamoured with the idea of a monstrous creature lumbering up to the squad to take out the lascannon, only to be met by a fusilade of rapid-fire plasma. A nice 'damned-if-you-do' scenario, I think. (It's definitely going to be a lascannon, by the by; I think the missile-launcher's versatility is a very good point, but until I grab myself a razorback or some-similar, it's going to be the only lascannon in the whole force.)

As for choice of close-combat weapons - that's a really good point too; an expensive power fist isn't going to help out much in a squad of five marines. I'm going to have to rethink my magnetizing policy; maybe there's a way I can have some versatility after all so that I can pull the close-combat gear out as the situation necessitates.

This of course raises more questions; as my knowledge of the game goes back to a time when the close-combat weapon sprue was all the rage, I've really got no idea as to the modern implications of taking a generic close-combat weapon versus a power weapon versus a powerfist versus a lightning claw versus a... well, you get the idea. (I've worked out the basics, i.e. powerfists bigger and better but slower; the actual in-game implications are a bit lost on me though.)

In terms of, say, wrecking any of the following:
- Horde greeblies
- Opposing character
- Monstrous types
- Armour

What would be the going suggestions for spec'ing out the sargent - or am I overthinking this? And furthermore; if I did throw in a devastator squad, then is two heavy bolters and two plasma cannons going to cut it? (I'd love to see how an all-missile launcher build might work also, or throwing in some lascannons; but I'm rather short of the necessary bits, alas.)

Thanks again for all the really great advice you guys are giving; I realise that compared to most build-help requests that this is comparatively minutia, but for a guy like me this is extraordinarily helpful.

If you can, just buy a five man assault squad. Next turn everything that is standard for tact marines into bolters.

Here is what I did to my five men, as you can see each item can change out.