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The worst thing in my 40k world isnt losing, rather its spending countless house painting an army only to play a game where models arent even basecoated(not even a lie I once played against someone who glued a bolter to a base and called it a tactical marine), Ive also played against models falling off bases. It was recently proposed to be that my eldar rangers armor(in the M and P forum go check it out) wasnt very tactical because he had the blue altiaoc armor. He did have a grey camo cloak to help the situation. Regardless I don't think it would be a bad thing if the next edition proposed bonuses based on painted armies, perhaps -1 to the cover save of anyone not painted( though Ive heard of stores who impose -1T and -1A to anyone not painted because they arent motivated and thier armor isnt as good), I could always refuse to play against unpainted armies but when you play at an FLGS that only has 3 people with fully painted armies it becomes hard especially if you drive a long way to play. Therefore I think it wouldnt be too bad if GW imposed a rule that unpianted models get a - bonus, I understand that you might be playtesting an army and want to play and thats fine but when a lizardmen player shows up every sunday for a year with sprue grey models thats pretty bad I think. In friendly games you could always not use the rule, same goes for tournements(as they normally have painting comp scores anyway). That way even the people who dont have a lot of time can spend an hour or 2 a week working on an army(not saying it has to be GD quality or anything but at least 2-3 colors), and the people who do spend months or years working on converting and painting armies would get a certain satisfaction in knowing that the person opposite them at least takes the time to work on thier army. Anyway tell me what you think.
-Aaron menzer

Yeah, I know what you mean. My local GW had this problem with a kid who played with his HE just with a black undercoat. They lost their ASF because they couldn't see through the inky blackness surrounding them.

It's annoying, and putting a disadvantage to unpainted armies would mean people actually bother to get them painted. I like the idea.

I don't.

Painting is an important, but not compulsory part of the Hobby.

Me, I do my painting because I enjoy my converting. I plan to have all characters for all Armies converted to some degree or other.

Does this mean because I have gone that extra mile that I should get bonuses to my Game Play? Like +1 to hit?

Sorry guys, but this is just snobbery.

doc, as much as i hate to say it mate i agree, fed up of painting up my armies only to play against chunks of grey plastic.

I'm with you guys, too. I haven't brought my army to play at the FLGS because I haven't gotten it all painted and I won't until I do. However, the last RTT they had only had one painted army done to a tabletop standard... all the others had the occassional IC done up in 2-3 colors. ::sigh::

While it's not necessary to paint in order to play 40k, it really helps the mood of the game. Why not take the time you'd spend playing at the FLGS and use it to get some models painted? Some stores may not allow painting on premesis, but my local shops do...

I disagree mad doc, as you said it is a hobby, this isnt risk, I dont think its that difficult to put a base color and a secondary color on a model, and maybe an ink. I could do a space marine in like 10 minutes, less maybe if I didnt use watered down paint, if both players dont want to piant their army then dont use the rule, but its basically the same as in a tounament where you get a painting score( you get penalized for not painting), if you show up to a GT with a non painted army you wont win. To call it snobbery I think is a bit much, I myself have offered to run painting workshops at my flgs and they said no cuz no one would show up, when I spend 100-150 hrs painting up an army I dont think its too much to ask for someone to sit down for an hour- 1-1/2 hrs a week to paint up 5-10 models. If you dont want to convert or highlight or whatever thats fine, but when you go to a store to play you expect marginally decent tables and some terrain, you might say while this is their job but Ive known stores as well which do just fine with no gaming room at all. If they are going to spend their time furthering the hobby and running events then I dont think its too much to ask for people to basecoat a model and slap a coat of paint on it or at least make progress on the painting. To have no incentive at all promotes people doing like what I said above and not finishing models, not basecoating models. And IMO if everything is painted it makes it a better experience for everyone.

I like this idea.

The point of figure wargaming is to have nice looking figures or we could just use counters.

It's kind of a disrespect to the other players to not bother painting your figures.

Personally, I don't like the idea at all. Now I can understand for a tournament having painting scores, but given how long it takes to paint an army and the fact that people have real lives means often times painting isn't going to get done fast, if at all.

Now I have a fully painted IG army, but my Chaos, even though I have enough painted to field a couple variations on a 2000pt army, is only half painted, and so if I want to use the units I don't have painted, I don't want to be penalized for no real game balance reason.

I haven't even gotten to my Tau or Eldar yet.


Painting is something that should be encouraged, and part of scoring at *all* events, but shouldn't affect gameplay at all.


Besides, I'd much rather some armies remain unpainted than face some of the blobbery horrors that I've seen. At least then I could tell what each model was.


EDIT: The other issue I have with this suggestion is that by the other side of the coin, extensively customized and nicely painted models would of course have to get a bonus, which is beyond the skills of many people (at least with the time they have available) and again isn't very balanced in terms of gameplay.


I think of 40k as a game, its a game I enjoy with a hobby aspect. same with PC gaming and computing in general. I guess it depends on which viewpoint you come from.

I disagree with the Op. Its pure snobbery on everyones part who agrees with him.
I can understand for tournys, but seriously folks come off your high horse.
Some people (Ill use myself for a example) have almost no free time to start with. I have a full time job, im a Vol Firefighter on the side and am going to school for my Basic EMT and if I dont feel like spending hours painting up my models then why should I be penalized? (disclamer I have two 2k armies that are painted that I worked hard on over the years)

Lets look at this in another light shall we?

John Smith just opened the 5th edition box that he got on his 12th birthday. He and a friend put the models together and play a few games on his mom kitchen counter to get the hang of things. He then waits all week for the weekend and asks his mom to drive him to the FLGS to play his first real game, but alas. Little John Smith cant find anyone willing to play cause his army isnt basecoated and flocked with a min of three colors and ink. You know what? The FLGS now isnt and he sells the army cause he doesnt want anything to do with any of the snobs at the store. He then spends the money on WOW and grows fat and lazy because he never leaves his parents basement for fear of missing the next raid.

Seriously though. It really is sad to see your view on this. Personally I wouldnt give a damn if someone proxied an army. Its a easy way to see if your army on paper will actually work before you fork over the money for models. Sure painted armies look nice, but bottom line folks is that is a flipping game. Get over yourselfs.

I think it should be situational, if the guy just got his army and wanted to try them out then that would be fine, but if the guy has had them for a few years they should be painted or look like hes attempting.

I think models should bet +1 toughness for each additional layer of highlights. Maybe +1 S for smooth blending, +1 wound for complex basing. And a 2+ inv save for NMM.

I think that was a bit much JP, first my schedule was recently cut back but I was working from 6-530 every day and having to work out on top of it, as well as a full time relationship and other commitments I dont think its too much to ask for people to sit and plaint for an hour a week. If you have a 100 model army and can get 4-5 done in an hour or so, which is easily possible if your only painting 1-2 colors itll take you what 6 months to get it done and thats being generous. and thats fine.
Second I dont have a problem with some dude coming up to me and saying hey Im thinking of buying dark eldar do you mind if I use my 2k worth of IG to proxy them and see if I like them. Thats fine, what I do have a problem with is when 6 months later he wants to play a 2k game with his dark eldar and Leman Russes are running around on the table, if you dont have the money to buy a new army dont play it.
Thirdly Im sure if John Smith came in and said "hey Im looking for a game but my stuff isnt painted will anyone play me straight up and not use the painting rule", I dont think anyone would have a problem with it, same goes for anyone who does buy a 2k dark eldar army and doesnt have them completely painted, But youd better be damn sure that when john smith comes in and doesnt have anything painted Im gonna sit down with him and try to teach him how to paint. Thats the problem, these people go out and buy their armies and dont paint them, dont put the time in the hobby side of it and worry more about how they are going to win the next game, then when little johnny comes in and sees everyone else with nothing painted he thinks the painted pictures on the box are just pretty pictures which sucks for everyone who does take the time to paint their army, because he isnt ever going to paint his stuff if hes around alot of people who dont.
Ive played with unpainted models Im sure we all have but I always work toward getting the whole thing done, which is really all Im saying. If you dont have a fully painted army thats fine, I understand people dont have the time, but at least work at it I cant tell you how many sprue grey armies Ive seen, and these arent armies fresh out of the box.
2 more points Number 1 like you said its a game which means you can use any rules you want if Im playing with a friend and decide not to use any cover rules I wont,
Number 2 while it is a game it is also a hobby, there are plenty of wargames, the new painted confrontation minis come to mind, or AT-43 or whatever people can play those. People expect other people to contribute to the hobby, to make terrain and run events, but most of the people who refuse to paint only want to play the game, and for alot of them it is a refusal to paint, Ive known plenty of people who play WOW alot and have sprue grey armies.
Sorry this post is so long I just think its unfair to call me snobby because I want to play against people who have put a little extra time in that doesnt include making lists, reading dakka or playing games. The unfortunate fact is that it seems more people are playing with unpainted armies then painted, which is why I really dont play the game too much outside of tourneys and with my local gaming group.

There are many reasons to get into this hobby:

Cool models

Cool background

Fun games

Social interaction with your friends

Painting

Tactics and strategic depth (not so much in 40K, but you get the idea)

Converting

Building terrain

Tax breaks

Witness protection

But you don't have to like all of them.

I don't like painting. At all. I have 80,000 points worth of Marines, Guard, Chaos, Tyranids and Necrons, almost every Necromunda Gang and additional Necromunda model ever made, a couple of thousand dollars worth of CoD buildings, every Warhammer Quest and Space Hulk item twice over, 250 BattleTech 'Mechs and over 100 BattleTech vehicles.

It would take me less time to list my painted models than it would for you to read the above paragraph.

I love modelling, converting, building terrain and playing games. I don't like painting.

Why should I be penalised because I didn't come to this game for the same reasons you did?

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:There are many reasons to get into this hobby:

Cool models

Cool background

Fun games

Social interaction with your friends

Painting

Tactics and strategic depth (not so much in 40K, but you get the idea)

Converting

Building terrain

Tax breaks

Witness protection

But you don't have to like all of them.

I don't like painting. At all. I have 80,000 points worth of Marines, Guard, Chaos, Tyranids and Necrons, almost every Necromunda Gang and additional Necromunda model ever made, a couple of thousand dollars worth of CoD buildings, every Warhammer Quest and Space Hulk item twice over, 250 BattleTech 'Mechs and over 100 BattleTech vehicles.

It would take me less time to list my painted models than it would for you to read the above paragraph.

I love modelling, converting, building terrain and playing games. I don't like painting.

Why should I be penalised because I didn't come to this game for the same reasons you did?

BYE

Very well said. I stand behind this statement 100%!

You get penalized at tournaments for not painting your stuff and I dont hear anyone complaining about that, and yes tournaments are optional but so is W40K, now Im not saying if you wont paint you shouldnt play. What I'm saying is that if you are going to sit down against someone who has a painted army no matter what the level of skill, it would be nice if both people were painted, now if neither are its no loss, dont use the rule, or if in your own gaming group or if your opponent agrees in a friendly game then just like any other rule dont use it, Im pretty sure it was your gaming group HMBC who had their own set of rules(correct me if I'm wrong), but I think if it were a rule it would inspire more people into the painting hobby rather then just saying while no one else at my FLGS paints why should I bother.
I wouldnt expect a rule like this to change anyone who already plays, but I think it would help alot of people who are just starting the hobby, which I think would just help the atmosphere of the 40k world in general.

There was a rule in Battlefleet Gothic that unpainted ships were considered to be undergoing their "shakedown cruise" and suffered some minor penalties.

GW stresses the "Hobby" aspect, which includes painting. This doesn't mean your model needs to be painted well, just put some more effort into it than shaking a spray can!

Penalizing friendly games is bad, and it will keep people form getting into the hobby. You get penalized in tournaments because they are expecting you be at a higher standard if you are going to be competing.

I don't mind playing against unpainted models, so long as I can see that my opponent is trying. When you see the same army month after month, all 1,000,000+ points of it in bare plastic and metal, you know the player just doesn't care and that bothers me. Put some effort into it. You don't learn to paint well by never picking up a brush.

amenzer wrote:You get penalized at tournaments for not painting your stuff and I dont hear anyone complaining about that

Because that's a tournament, and if you show up to a tournament with unpainted minis it looks bad. Plus there are awards for painting. But it shouldn't play any role within the game with penalties.

Incomplete models is another matter (like the bolter stuck to a base repping a Tactical Marine). That's where the line should be drawn. If you can't be bothered to finish a model, or rep it WYSIWYG, then don't use the model.

amenzer wrote:Im pretty sure it was your gaming group HMBC who had their own set of rules(correct me if I'm wrong), but I think if it were a rule it would inspire more people into the painting hobby rather then just saying while no one else at my FLGS paints why should I bother.

This comes as a shock to most people here, but I'm very stubborn. And in situations like this I would become very stubborn indeed. Were this to be a rule I'd actually be more inclined to plant my feet in the ground and say "Make me." that I would be to get 'inspired'.

BYE

Swordbreaker wrote:When you see the same army month after month, all 1,000,000+ points of it in bare plastic and metal, you know the player just doesn't care and that bothers me.

Doesn't care about what though? And why should they care?

If I saw the same person show up with the same army game after game, get slaughtered, and not even change their list, that would bother me as it seems they don't care. But if they're in the hobby for the painting aspect, what right do I have to say 'Change your list and play better'. If someone doesn't paint their models because they don't enjoy that aspect of the hobby, then that's tough.

Again? Why should they care? Why should they do something they may not enjoy because it bothers you?

BYE

we played a bloodbowl league, about 2 months before hand it was announced that anyone who didn't have a painted team would suffer -1 fan factor per player (as your supporters couldn't work out if they were on your team) We had 12 teams all painted that year. This time, no such rule and less than half are painted.

Now for 40K WFB I can understand it takes a while to paint an army, but for bloodbowl! 16 figs max! Painting should be encouraged, penalties are for peoples discretion, but they can be a motivator!

H.B.M.C. wrote:There are many reasons to get into this hobby:

Cool models

Cool background

Fun games

Social interaction with your friends

Painting

Tactics and strategic depth (not so much in 40K, but you get the idea)

Converting

Building terrain

Tax breaks

Witness protection

But you don't have to like all of them.

I don't like painting. At all. I have 80,000 points worth of Marines, Guard, Chaos, Tyranids and Necrons, almost every Necromunda Gang and additional Necromunda model ever made, a couple of thousand dollars worth of CoD buildings, every Warhammer Quest and Space Hulk item twice over, 250 BattleTech 'Mechs and over 100 BattleTech vehicles.

It would take me less time to list my painted models than it would for you to read the above paragraph.

I love modelling, converting, building terrain and playing games. I don't like painting.

Why should I be penalised because I didn't come to this game for the same reasons you did?

BYE

My eyesight isn't good enough to paint 6mm figures, which is what i'm mostly into these days.

So I pay to have them painted by a service.

Painted figures are a core part of the figure wargame hobby. If people cannot find the time, skill, enthusiasm or money to lay out painted figures, perhaps they are in the wrong hobby.

Don't give a sob story about little Johnny and his friend. The FLGS should give him a friendly introduction to the painting side of the hobby.

A GW store near me (now sadly without its former, very good manager) had a simple rule to encourage painting.

Each time someone came back for a game they had to have done a bit more on their army until everything was 3 colours/based.

He gave everyone plenty of warning and encouraged painting workshops in store. It worked a charm!

Now he's gone and the last time I was there me and my opponent (who both have fully painted armies) were having a game of 40k. I did not believe the amount of people who commented on the rarity of seeing two finished armies having a game... sad really.

HMBC wrote:
If I saw the same person show up with the same army game after game, get slaughtered, and not even change their list, that would bother me as it seems they don't care. But if they're in the hobby for the painting aspect, what right do I have to say 'Change your list and play better'. If someone doesn't paint their models because they don't enjoy that aspect of the hobby, then that's tough.

What right do you have to let them continue to get slaughtered and sit in the corner and laugh quietly because they would rather paint, I think we all should work to better the hobby, and if that means helping someone make better lists or teaching people how to paint then I for one am all for it, Now if the person doesnt want to change their list/paint their models/buy new stuff then so be it, it is a hobby and a game and people can do what they like you can't force people to do stuff. Im not saying you need to beat it down anyone throats, but there isnt anything wrong with trying to help people do things in a better way and for you to suggest that there is well.... I think thats pretty sad.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Incomplete models is another matter (like the bolter stuck to a base repping a Tactical Marine). That's where the line should be drawn. If you can't be bothered to finish a model, or rep it WYSIWYG, then don't use the model.

Modeling is core to the hobby but painting is not? Converting is much harder and more time consuming than painting and many of the stock models don't have optimum wargear. How can you say 'I don't play warhammer for the painting, I have the right not to enjoy and therefor not paint' but then demand converted and modeled figures. 10 year olds don't own a hobby knife and in *MANY* places can't even buy superglue. Simple conversions and modeling is almost impossible for younger kids. (drilled barrels anyone?)

It is all or nothing when it comes to the hobby aspect. The hobby includes all components equally. You don't get to choose the areas you like to be mandatory and the ones you don't to be optional. This is where you get the FLGS that says WYSIWYG is optional and the other FLGS says painting is optional and the result is both are terrible places to play.

I can basecoat/wash/drybrush/base a 2000 point marine army in about 2 hours. I have done it for people. And I show it can be done by anybody. And the 'nice' thing is, your models are painted and ready for detailing whenever you feel inclined to do it. And we even have 'dip day' where we SUPPORT people by helping them get the armies painted. with like 10 of us, we can get through like 8 armies in a 2 hour period.

3 colors and based is minimal effort and easy regardless if you like doing it or not. Either you require all aspects of the hobby or you require none of them and let people play with pogs. I would rather be a snob than a hypocrite that requires the aspect he likes while not requiring the parts he doesn't like.

I also dont know if I would quite go that far Nk although I dont think you meant it to be quite as harsh as I think it sounds. That said I do agree mostly. Everything should be at the very least WYSIWYG, if you dont want to drill barrels or add banners or whatever thats cool with me, but yes 3 colors based, and WYSIWYG should be everyones goal.

nkelsch wrote:Modeling is core to the hobby but painting is not?

Where did I say that?

nkelsch wrote:Converting is much harder and more time consuming than painting and many of the stock models don't have optimum wargear.

I was talking about actually putting your models together. What are you talking about? I never said anything about converting models. Pay attention.

nkelsch wrote:...but then demand converted and modeled figures.

Show me where I 'demanded' it?

Oh wait, I didn't, here's what I said:

"If you can't be bothered to finish a model, or rep it WYSIWYG, then don't use the model."

This sentence of mine was preceeded by this one:

"Incomplete models is another matter... . That's where the line should be drawn."

Now we're going to learn a little something about context. I'll start by asking this question:

What happens when you combined the following two sentences:

1. "Incomplete models is another matter... . That's where the line should be drawn."
2. "If you can't be bothered to finish a model, or rep it WYSIWYG, then don't use the model."

When combined do you get:

A). A desire to see models completed, and modesl repped WYSIWYG (ie. a Tactical Marine with a Bolter is actually represented by a Tactical Marine with a Bolter, and not a base with a Bolter stuck to it).
B). Someone demanding conversions?

Here's a hint:

It's not B.

See, a little reading comprehension goes a long way.

nkelsch wrote:The hobby includes all components equally.

Bullsh!t. There are people who collect models and don't play. There are people who collect models and don't paint. There are people who just make terrain.

nkelsch wrote:You don't get to choose the areas you like to be mandatory and the ones you don't to be optional.

Double bullsh!t.

nkelsch wrote:I can basecoat/wash/drybrush/base a 2000 point marine army in about 2 hours. I have done it for people. And I show it can be done by anybody. And the 'nice' thing is, your models are painted and ready for detailing whenever you feel inclined to do it. And we even have 'dip day' where we SUPPORT people by helping them get the armies painted. with like 10 of us, we can get through like 8 armies in a 2 hour period.

And all of this means what to me exactly?

I don't enjoy painting. Period.

I'm not going to spend countless hours doing something that I don't enjoy. I'm not about to demand that someone who buys models just to paint them will have to play the game before he's allowed to paint them.

nkelsch, I'll level with you:

Your post is incoherent. It is nothing but a misguided and off-base strawman attack.

BYE

Did IQ's drop sharply while I was away?

amenzer wrote:What right do you have to let them continue to get slaughtered and sit in the corner and laugh quietly because they would rather paint,

What is this 'laughing in a corner' nonsense? Where the hell did that come from?

I'm sorry. Go and re-read what I wrote.

Here, I'll make it easy for you:

"If I saw the same person show up with the same army game after game, get slaughtered, and not even change their list, that would bother me as it seems they don't care. But if they're in the hobby for the painting aspect, what right do I have to say 'Change your list and play better'. If someone doesn't paint their models because they don't enjoy that aspect of the hobby, then that's tough."

Now I've bolded the important part of the above statement, and underlined the key word you seem to have missed.

To expand upon that, and explain it in detail so that you don't (inexplicably) miss the meaning this time:

If someone is in the hobby for painting, and does not care about the gaming aspect, what right do I have to say 'Play better!' to them.

The answer? No more right than someone saying to me 'Paint your stuff now!'.

BYE

Kilkrazy wrote:Painted figures are a core part of the figure wargame hobby.

And at what point did I say it wasn't?

Jesus H. Jervis-Loving Christ people - Do you know what you are saying?

Read this:

strawman

noun
2. a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted [syn: straw man]

Get it yet?

Please understand what this means and understand that all three of you - amenzer, Kilkrazy & nkelsch - are doing this.

If you still don't get what I mean when I say 'Strawman', let me simplify it for you:

You're putting words into my mouth.

When I say:

"There are many different aspects to the hobby, some people enjoy all of them equally, some people only like parts of it, and everyone can choose to take out of it what they will."

You cannot respond with:

"So you think painting isn't core?

If people cannot find the time, skill, enthusiasm or money to lay out painted figures, perhaps they are in the wrong hobby.


All of your comments:

"Don't give a sob story..."
"What right do you have to let them continue to get slaughtered and sit in the corner and laugh quietly because they would rather paint..."
"Modeling is core to the hobby but painting is not?"
"How can you ... demand converted and modeled figures"

Are meaningless, because at no actual point did I say, infer, or otherwise state the intention of any having these opinion.


GAH!

BYE

H.B.M.C wrote:I don't enjoy painting. Period.

Other people don't enjoy superglue or attaching weapons options to models that do not come stock out of the box. They would rather play the meta game and allow proxies all day long. They feel any Heavy weapons should be any other Heavy weapon.

You want to 'draw lines' right below your personal level of effort so you personally get your way (no painting) but others are forced to participate in the hobby up to your level. (WYSIWYG models) Refusing to paint but demanding modeling is snobbery to someone who believes in proxies.

The only consistent line that can be set that is not a self-serving hypocrisy is:
*WYSIYG, colors and based
or
*nothing, anything goes as people are personally allowed to enjoy whatever fraction of the hobby they wish.

I'll just restate my position, because people seem to be missing it, taking it out of context, and basically misunderstanding what should be a really simple fething concept:


OP - We should give bonuses for painted models in games and/or penalties for those that don't have painted armies.

My responce, in a nutshell:



There are many different aspects to this hobby [insert my long list of aspects - there are probably more than what I have listed]. Some people:

Enjoy all these aspects equally - Example: Someone who loves the background, loves playing, has a great time converting, and loves to spend time painting.

Enjoy only enjoy one or several of those aspects - Example: Someone loves converting miniatures and then painting them to the highest standard he can, but has no real interest in the game.

May actually dislike certain aspects - Example: A guy really likes the background, but doesn't like modelling at all so has no interest in getting any models, painting or even playing - he just loves reaing the novels and background books!!!

Each person approaches the hobby in a different way to another person. All aspects of the hobby are equal but only if a person approaches it that way. To someone who can't stand the 40K background, but loves getting his hands dirty and converting models, then the story aspect of 40K is not equal to the modelling aspect. If someone just wants to throw models down and get playing, but either hasn't got the skill or the inclination to spend hours making terrain so just uses cardboard boxes and pepsi bottles, then the terrain building aspect is not equal to the gaming aspect in that person's eyes.

So to then go and propose an in-game rule that forces people to value a certain aspect of the hobby over any other (in this case painting), that is bad, as you are essentially saying "Aspect X is the most important/is more important than Aspects Y, L and K - so you must conform to this otherwise we will give you penalties for Aspect K."


Now to put that into the context of myself, and to make this crystal clear, so there is no ambiguity (not that there was to begin with, but anyway...):

I hate painting.

In fact, after all the utter nonsense above my posts with people misunderstanding and getting all uppity about someone who doesn't like painting (how dare I?) I'd even go so far as to say I hate painting even more now than before this thread was started.

But I love 40K's background. I love playing 40K. I love modelling and converting. I love building terrain (more than playing actually). These four of the many aspects of 40K that I enjoy, take the most pleasure from, and will spend all my time within the hobby doing.

To me, all other aspects are irrelevent and I do not regard them equally.

This, at no point, means I think that all people should share what I take out of the hobby. If someone only cares about painting, or only cares about playing, then good, I'm happy for them.

But at no point should one aspect be valued over another to the point where it actually has an effect upon the other aspects - ie. you must paint (aspect A) otherwise your playing (aspect B) will be affected.



Or feth, just read my first post. That really said it in the most succinct fashion.




You may now all proceed to do the following:

1. Tell me how mean I am.
2. Tell me how I'm not being nice.
3. Tell me that I shouldn't demand converted models.

And all sorts of other crap that isn't true.

BYE

Of FFS...

nkelsch wrote:You want to 'draw lines' right below your personal level of effort so you personally get your way (no painting) but others are forced to participate in the hobby up to your level. (WYSIWYG models) Refusing to paint but demanding modeling is snobbery to someone who believes in proxies.

You might actually be brain dead. Or blind. Or both.

Once agian, to clarify:

I'm asking for models to be CONSTRUCTED.

This has got nothing to do with 'stock models out of the box' and having to convert models to be 100% exactly WYSIWYG with wargear and fiddling around with super-glue and cutting and whatever. Where are you pulling this nonsense from? Where the holy-high-feth did I say that?

I'm talking about people who can't actually be bothered to put the model together (the bolter stuck to a base example that someone posted).

BYE