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Let us say, just for the sake of argument, that the world we live on is not in fact the homeworld of humanity but a lost colony from the Dark Age of technology. Human arrived 20,000 years ago, killed off the native neandrathols and here we are.

And now, the year 2008 (our calendar) the White Lion Space Marine Chapter (standard codex chapter) has been sent to bring us the Emperor's light.

They have 1000 battle brothers (plus servitors and thralls to crew vehicles), a battle barge or two, a couple of strike cruisers, drop pods, thunderhawks and all the normal marine vehicles and weapons.

We have 190 or so nation states, several million people under arms, 8 or 9 nuclear powers, with at least 3 of them having ICBMs that can reach orbit.

Although it is never really spelled out in the fluff (that I can see) let's also assume the Marines are not total fools. They have anthropolgists, linguists and sociologists who can monitor our transmissions and will know how our world works. At least as much as anyone could find out from publicly available information. We of course would know nothing about them.

Assume also they can be a bit practical and ally themselves with Earth nations willing to accept their terms.

Assume also marines and Earth forces perform more or less according to the game mechanics. Most earth troops are like IG, but without plasma, melta or las weapons. Our tanks have nothing more powerful than an autocannon. Nothing short of a LAW or TOW is going to penetrate marine armor.

They have faith in the Emperor.
We have faith in lots of stuff.

What constitutes winning for the Marines? Assume that there is a follow-up force of missionaries, arbites, Inquisitors and colonizing officials to handle the occupation. The Marines are there to force the capitulation or collapse of the major world governments and organized resistance. they don't have to worry about converting us or teaching us Imperial Gothic. However they would also want to take us more or less intact, say with at least 4 billion people (out of 5+ billion) our industry and natural resources usable.

So with all this in mind who'd win?

As Chapter Master of the White Lions what would your first move be?

I see two ways to do it.

1. Unsupported space marines don't take and hold planets, they just take them. I believe that Imperial forces would see our culturally and socially fragmented planet, identify our political breakdowns on a global scale, and then provide training and armament for one significant group (example: China, continent of Africa, etc) to take forcible dominion over all neighboring countries. Earthlings would provide the brute manpower for asserting Imperial rule over Earth, Marines would be used as the surgical strike force that they are to disable Industrialized command centers, ICBM launchers, and weapons manufacture.

2. Imperial Guard elements land on Earth and smash the living bejeezus out of everything. The M1 Abrams, I think, is significantly better than a Leman Russ in both armor and armament. This allows the U.S. to hold out against guard armored elements until Space Marines wipe out the bunkers and command centers that support our vehicle infrastructure. Again, surgical strike force, not take-and-hold.

If the purpose of the thinking exercise is to wonder how well Earth would stand up to a full chapter of marines, we'd lose any pitched battle. I mean, they have space ships. Marines, on the other hand, would be forced into a policing role, with perhaps as few as one Marine governing an entire country. This would allow life to continue almost as-is, except under the watchful eye of benevolent overlords. Free countries would lose freedoms, developing countries would gain stability. Overall win-win for the Earth Collective until the mechanicus shows up.

Correction, world population is 6.7 billion.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html#Military

I can't seem to find a worldwide figure for how many soldiers there are, I guess I could add them up for all 194 nations plus 70 dependencies but... yuk.

Heckva lot more than a 1000 though.

Well, as a practical imperial commander I'd yelp for backup. Clearly the earth is far more difficult to overcome than the typical lost colony, in particular in terms of its size and ICBMs. I'd want a far larger and more impressive fleet. I'd get the Admech's interest with the offer of Earth's obvious archeotech. We'd want to roll up in such ludicrous majesty that it would completely obliterate all notions of resistance. Make it clear that it's the galaxy vs. one world, and surrender is the only viable choice.

Sadly, it is unlikely that the Imperium would be able to spare the battlefleet necessary for this plan.

As a practical imperial commander with no backup I'd resign myself to a more protracted process than ordinarily necessary. I'd communicate with the Earth, demanding its surrender, and demonstrate my power via the obliteration of an asteroid or so. Presumably the natives would be belligerent, but I'm at the top of the gravity hill, and they have no defense lasers. I'd use targeted bombardment to obliterate several cities, shoot down their missiles and in general bombard them into submission. In the likely case that they continued to resist after bombardment I'd establish a quarantine zone around the world and flag it for conquest as soon as a sufficiently large IG force could be detailed, then head back and initiative political struggles to be given a place in that force.

Sadly, it is unlikely that a Space Marine commander would be terribly practical.

As a Space Marine commander I'd communicate to the world at large that they should prepare for a return to the Emperor's light, and congratulate them on their return to the fold. I'd promise rewards for those who complied, and imply that those who did not would miss out. The nations of earth would probably wish to talk, and I'd indulge them in this. I'd make the case for integration into the galactic whole persuasively and forcefulely, letting the obvious power of my battle barges and the obvious benefits of living forever as a larger than life super-soldier speak for themselves. Presumably earth would ultimately fracture into a portion which supported me and a portion which opposed me. The fault line would most likely be along previously existing conflict lines. Once the battle lines began to be clear I'd pick the least impressive member state of the opposition and absolutely obliterate them. Drop Pod assault following up a barrage from the battle barges, a thousand Adeptus Astartes kicking trash. We'd lay waste to their military in instants, and fade back to our orbital strongholds, leaving naught but desolated ruins. If this was insufficient as a deterrent to scare the dissenters into line, or backfired horribly and lost me most of my allies I'd be stuck in a protracted war. As a Space Marine commander possessed of complete orbital superiority I'd ultimately be able to get my side to win this, but it would take years and I wouldn't enjoy it.

That's my general take on the situation. Ironically, I think humanity would be far more fortunate if a non-Space Marine force had arrived.

I say we go down, say "Hello", watch a couple of our guys get shot and then take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

After the first engagements that leave most of the surface of the Earth in ruins, only the remnants of the United Space Forces remain capable of fighting in earnest against the Space Marine threat with captured alien technology.

Gradually, Space marines would become enamored by our 'culture'. Min M... ahem, American Idol contestant #74 sings songs that would chill them out and make them forget the Emperor. We would make some 'de-space-marine-ing' vats that could turn Space Marines back into normal humans if they so desired, while IG and basic humans are allowed into Earth society through a formal re-education process.

Remaining space marine and IG forces would join the UN Spacey to defend against the inevitable crusades to follow.

Epilogue: American Idol transmissions are broadcast wide-beam to the entire galaxy with the following effects.

Not possessing sufficient technology to receive the transmissions, the Imperium of Man is largely deaf to the assault. Occasional crusades are sent out to Earth but are lost in the warp due to clerical errors.

Eldar craftworlds all set course for Earth hoping to join in the competition. Wraithbone sales up %200.

Tyranids take the transmissions as a challenge and develop some wicked singing and dancing biomorphs. Attempts at dancing the next world into submission are a complete failure and the hive fleet onslaught is halted.

Slaanesh declares herself lord of all demons, while Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeench disappear into the void. Tzeench's last words are "Just as plann.... <poof>"

40k Enthusiast pretty much pegged what I was thinking.

My thought is the Marines would have to be in and out of a site pretty fast or numbers would take the toll.

Their big advantage is they can hit anywhere on Earth, the White House, a nuclear missile silo, Tiananmen Square before the local government can mobilize much in the way of resistance.

But once they raise the flag and start buidling bunkers they're screwed.

So they can nuke cities, they can do surgical strikes, they can take hostages (the Pope, the President of the US, Bono) but cannot take and hold territory. They have to convince nations to join them.

One potential spoiler is nuclear subs, which can stay at sea for years and can't be hunted from orbit (unless Imperial survelance tech is much, much better than the fluff has shown). They can't really threaten the orbiting fleet but can by the ultimate spoiler for any country that joins the Imperium.

Another spoiler is air power, a few fighter bombers can be on the scene a lot faster than infantry and can hit a lot harder. They can hit the Thunderhawks on the ground and prevent extraction, or (if they're not too shy about hitting their own) just raze the entire battle field, hostages and friendly forces be damned.

Because of the nature of 40k the marines have not been shown as having much in the way of anti-aircraft weapons or air support. Is all of that handled by laser barrages from orbit? Hand-held heavy weapons? Whirlwinds? Land speeders?

Lasers from orbit make the most sense.

Anyway point is Marines will either have to nuke us from orbit or get in and out real fast.

Moz wrote:After the first engagements that leave most of the surface of the Earth in ruins, only the remnants of the United Space Forces remain capable of fighting in earnest against the Space Marine threat with captured alien technology.

Gradually, Space marines would become enamored by our 'culture'. Min M... ahem, American Idol contestant #74 sings songs that would chill them out and make them forget the Emperor. We would make some 'de-space-marine-ing' vats that could turn Space Marines back into normal humans if they so desired, while IG and basic humans are allowed into Earth society through a formal re-education process.

Remaining space marine and IG forces would join the UN Spacey to defend against the inevitable crusades to follow.

Epilogue: American Idol transmissions are broadcast wide-beam to the entire galaxy with the following effects.

Can a de-space-marined-marine love? Does the female de-space-marined-marine ace Transformable Dreadnought pilot fall in love with a lowly earthborn F-14 ace? His characteristic blue plane dancing in the sky with her crimson sarcophagus would become the stuff of legend.

You're all wrong.

Chuck Norris, Sho Kosugi, Clint Eastwood, and the frozen capsule containing Elvis immediately sense the Marines translating out of warp space. When the marines land, they are waiting. The last call heard from the White Lions is “Send reinforcements STATIC falling ba STATIC regroup at STATIC SO MUCH BLOOD! Static”


Hail to the King Baby…

Keep it simple. Exterminatus and start over.

Here is how it would go down. A small combat team of Space Marines would drop pod on top of every world leader, and a team of terminators would teleport into the United Nations. The command centers are hit next, things like the Pentagon, NORAD and various war departments around the world. The defense infrastructure comes apart immediately, ICBMs and atomic weapons are lost to the remnants of government. Over the next twenty years, Space Marine forces pretty much run rampage wherever they want to go. Our primitive communication system is tapped and Imperial Propaganda plays constantly. Predator tank squadrons destroy whole battalions of T-19 and M1 tanks, their plasteel armour barely dented while their lascannons and auto-cannons punch holes through our armour. Space Marine squads launch attacks on our forces and bases, killing hundreds of soldiers using small combat teams. The world economy immediately crumbles, and the world is thrown into a major depression. Manufacturing companies and service industry cease to exist as areas drop off the radar into Imperial hands, causing our scattered manufacturing base to grind to a halt. Thunderhawks shoot down a few air liners, and air travel ceases, while highways and railways are shattered and constantly bombed, preventing intercity travel by regular people. Resupply is never an issue, as the Marines simply use our own fuel supplies and make their own ammunition, but the expensive vehicles and especially aircraft of the modern army become irreplaceable. Aircraft Carriers are sunk by orbital bombardment, and airports are subsequently targeted and cratered. Over time, governments and groups surrender to the Space Marines and eventually supply soldiers to the Imperial Cause. Once some men get armed with lasguns and wearing flak armour, the remaining resistance crumbles within six months.

I place the Space Marine casualties at around a dozen, likely taken while fighting in the less civilized nations from lucky hits with RPG-7s or megasized IEDs.

Based on how most games of 40k play out, the marines will lose at least half their force at each engagement.

40ke has the same ideas that I do. I think the Marinez! Hurr! would teleport and drop pod onto important strategic assets, command and control, missile silos, etc. take them out, and then just wait for the IG to show up and build bunkers and monuments to the Emperor. And, by the fluff, one or two squads could take out at least an infantry company by themselves. Faith in the Emperor FTW!

Nah, my 9 year old would pwon a marine chapter. They are only 1 inch tall-they don't have a chance.


By the way OS, where would the marines get the coordinates for the teleporting? Without proper coordinates the marines would teleport into a rock.
Besides, by Abnett fluff all I need is some TNT and every marine on the planet is a potential dead duck, not to mention the power of Norris.

Tabletop is not an accurate portrayal of the Space Marines, it's a balanced one.

As for Abnett, with the exception of the unfortunately incident with crossbows and a chaos marine, high powered lasguns or better are needed to kill a marine. By the way, 40k explosives are at a density pretty much unheard of in modern times. Short of shooting a marine directly with an anti-tank rocket, nothing our infantry are going to carry will even concern a marine.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Because of the nature of 40k the marines have not been shown as having much in the way of anti-aircraft weapons or air support. Is all of that handled by laser barrages from orbit? Hand-held heavy weapons? Whirlwinds? Land speeders?

Most Marine AA is dealt with by Hyperios class Whirlwinds(AA Whirlwinds that mount HK-esque missiles), Land Speeder Tempests(which are classed as flyers fluff-wise, but aren't rules-wise and ticks me off), Thunderhawks themselves, and Hyperios Air Defence platforms(although their need for a command platform is a weak link).

And besides, a boltgun will kill a copter hands-down (hell, and AK-47 will kill a copter) and jets need an insane amount of support material and personal to function, which won't be around long.

jfrazell wrote:You're all wrong.

Chuck Norris, Sho Kosugi, Clint Eastwood, and the frozen capsule containing Elvis immediately sense the Marines translating out of warp space. When the marines land, they are waiting. The last call heard from the White Lions is “Send reinforcements STATIC falling ba STATIC regroup at STATIC SO MUCH BLOOD! Static”


Hail to the King Baby…

I'm guessing those 4 would end up as some sort of weird analog to the Chaos Gods...

Analog? THEY ARE THE CHAOS GODS BABY!

The space marines would teleport some Vanguard down and assault the United Nations on turn 2.

'WTF the nu books are 2 broken!' the Earth would reply.

'No dude, they are expensive, it balances out.'

Then Poland would, much like they did in WW2, deploy rough riders. They would actually manage to kill a single squad of marines.

'WTF Marines should not be able to die!' the Marines would moan.

'Whatevs, our book is like 15000 years old, GW updates you dickheads every other month. Plus we converted them with cold ones,' the Earth would retort.

'I still think they're lame.' The Marines would moan.

Then there'd be a price hike and the whole war would end in a draw because noone could afford to buy all the new stuff.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:...they can take hostages (the Pope, the President of the US, Bono...

With some sort of 'surrender or we'll give them back' deal, right?

We would want them back?

open_sketchbook wrote:Tabletop is not an accurate portrayal of the Space Marines, it's a balanced one.

As for Abnett, with the exception of the unfortunately incident with crossbows and a chaos marine, high powered lasguns or better are needed to kill a marine. By the way, 40k explosives are at a density pretty much unheard of in modern times. Short of shooting a marine directly with an anti-tank rocket, nothing our infantry are going to carry will even concern a marine.

Yeah but the OP is about a tabletop chapter.

My prediction is that everything you said would come to pass up to half way. Then the SMs would get picked off in a series of ambushes by Somali tribesmen armed with RPGs.

One thing about controlling the Earth is there's no way 1,000 guys could do it. They have to rely on local persuaders and enforces, who will be totally vulnerable to the population.

Destroy any and all satellites not needed for SM to communicate with Earthlings, if none are required, destroy all of them.

Have Terminators 'port in, take whichever world leaders they felt they needed, 'port back (I don't know how many Telporters SM have on the barges, might be able to do this strike all at once if they have enough). Make sure you grab whatever leaders you want quickly so we can't set up some kind of boobytrap on potential targets to come (example: plant explosives on all Presidents/Kings after the first few get taken, since Teleporters don't work well if blown up). Give them an offer to ally with SM or face consequences. Give us minimal time to agree/disagree with offer, make sure Earthlings understand that the SM are just the vanguard of our new master and are only here to keep us in line until the real masters of our new destiny arrive. Best to have all leaders together when offer is made in a featureless room with no visible SM presence. Make sure all such talks are broadcast to the Earthlings.

Broadcast the Orbital Bombardments of the capitol cities of of any that disagree with whatever terms they were offered (include some other choice targets like vacation resorts, such as the Las Vegas Strip, Disney World, Paris, etc. to demoralize those that defy SM rule). Then shoot all of the leaders that refuse the offer after bombardments are finished, teleport bodies to wherever it thought best to demoralize enemies. Also Bombard any areas that give hints of Chaos infestation, possibly any major Religious areas like Rome, Mecca, or Jerusalem.

Warn Earthlings that any attempt to launch nukes and similar weapons will do more long term damage to the Earth's population the higher up they get before being destroyed and so will be destroyed as close to the ground as possible. If they persist in firing them, allow a few to get up high first to make the point. Cease the broadcast, destroy any satellites no longer needed, if any left.

Return all allied leaders with instructions on how to combat their neighboring enemies of the SM. Use allies to quell any that resist but do not arm the allies with any wargear nor help them to make their own versions of SM tech, just minimally support them as needed. Do not use any SM forces unless absolutely have to (anything left on the battlefield could be taken by us to possibly learn how to make it or somehow defend against it). Minimalize any conflicts between allies, destroy any that might be best sacrificed to quell possible allied rebellion.

Make sure no Earthlings EVER have any access to SM tech, shoot on sight/rend with power weapons/teleport into space any one that does/tries to or you suspect might try to. Make sure no more contact is allowed to any SM besides whatever is needed to finish whatever tasks are assigned the SM. Quarantine or terminate any SM that oversteps this rule or somehow become friendly with any Earthlings. Do not become overly friendly with any Earthlings, they are too expendable and unimportant for the greater work the SM are performing and WILL cloud judgment.

Depending on how long the SM must hold, offer the resistance a chance to surrender once a month. Remember to check up on allies to make sure they are actually doing what is asked of them. Consider any that are not as enemies and inform them of their new status. Bombard some of their more important cities to demoralize them and any other resistors.

Other options depend on how long they must hold us before being relieved.

If they haven't obliterated the earth in the 3 months then they've lost.

timeline
1. Within 3 months one of our skilled thieves has procured a plasma or melta pistol.

2. Within 3 months they are selling it in the Asian underground.

3. Within 6 months the Borg, er Microsoft will have a copy.

4. Massed armies of kids with mass produced plasmas will eliminate all marines with ease. Enter cool speeder races as captured landspeeders become the new must have.

5. Within 2 years, fleets of ships based on reverse engineered technology will be sent out. The Imperium doesn't stand a chance against the power of the Borg er Microsoft.

I think smashotron hit the nail right on the head. They would nuke us from orbit...because it's the only way to be sure.

Hate to say it, better bring a whole lot of nukes or all you did was tick off Elvis. And you don't tick off Elvis. Look what happened to Alec Baldwin's career...

Jive Professor wrote:The space marines would teleport some Vanguard down and assault the United Nations on turn 2.

'WTF the nu books are 2 broken!' the Earth would reply.

'No dude, they are expensive, it balances out.'

Then Poland would, much like they did in WW2, deploy rough riders. They would actually manage to kill a single squad of marines.

'WTF Marines should not be able to die!' the Marines would moan.

'Whatevs, our book is like 15000 years old, GW updates you dickheads every other month. Plus we converted them with cold ones,' the Earth would retort.

'I still think they're lame.' The Marines would moan.

Then there'd be a price hike and the whole war would end in a draw because noone could afford to buy all the new stuff.

Hmm if they knew how completely ineffectual, corrupt and useless the UN is they wouldn't bother touching it with a 10' pole.

What would really happen is they would map the planet from orbit. Once completed they would determine the most industrialized and advanced areas and nuke or heavily bombard those from orbit. When you have the high ground it's just a matter of laying siege. Heck they could cause a nuclear winter(not with nukes but big asteroids impacting the surface. After awhile the communication, transportation, and power networks of the major powers will be in ruin. The industrial and agricultural base of most nations will no longer exist. People will starve and freeze etc. Eventually they would begin negotiations and many nations would surrender. Those that they could get to join the Imperium would be armed and equipped to help conquer the rest.

jfrazell , the challenge was to have the SM take and hold, not see how fast the could destroy us.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Snip!

And now, the year 2008 (our calendar) the White Lion Space Marine Chapter (standard codex chapter) has been sent to bring us the Emperor's light.

Snip 2!

However they would also want to take us more or less intact, say with at least 4 billion people (out of 5+ billion) our industry and natural resources usable.

So with all this in mind who'd win?

As Chapter Master of the White Lions what would your first move be?

If the SM were just here to destroy us, they would auto-win against us unless they were really stupid about it. Heck, they just show up, when we try to nuke them, they just pop the missiles in our atmosphere, then we are are toast. If we don't try and nuke them, they just bombard whatever parts they need to to cause our ecosphere to be come unstable and can call it a day. "The Earth" only wins against far superior tech in "bad sci-fi".

To be honest, I would expose the earthlings to some of the galaxy's horrors first then save the day. Being their saviors would surely get the Emperor's message across the population. I think... Orks. Those are tough and persistant. Offer to join the empire for protection, those who refuse... Give em to the orks.

Space marines are actually good guys if they like you, and chances are that many people will have no problem with a new god that requires no more of them than their current one. Hence, if you like the emperor, and you can convince the marines that "these vile unbelievers are trying to suppress the light of the emperor!" you would have lots of friendly, 7 foot tall neighbors with guns that would make the guys from Men in black cry for shame

Obviously the added bonus of... y'know, living will help to convince some of those who are tentative about converting, and there would be many who figured that living is better than dying... period. The world would erupt into civil war, and like all good novels, every single uninvited race out there would start to show up.

Civil war would bring chaos, chaos would bring eldar, the overall cluster feth for all would bring orks, "cause we likes to stomp da umies" and tryanids because they're always hungry.

In the meantime there would be some sort of space marine or last chancer kill team sent to save the world from destruction, and blah blah blah.

In the end, the earth would become a dead planet, with refugees fleeing earth and being assimilated into the imperium, warp, or the belly of some great big flying space beasty.

I love a happy ending