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 sebster wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
It should be remembered though, that whilst Poroshenko is now legitimate, the rest of the Ukrainian Government is not. The elections were simply presidential elections, not general ones. Arseniy Yatsenyuk and the rest of the Kiev revolutionary administration are still holding the reins of government, albeit in concert with Poroshenko's advice/input.

Sure, but this vote can hardly be seen as a rejection of that government. Poroshenko may have chosen his words carefully regarding aligning the Ukraine with the West, but he's a mile away from a pro-Russian candidate. The pro-Russian candidate... well his electoral triumph is the little green bit.

Poroshenko was actually initially a member of Yanukovych's government IIRC. I think he's generally hacked off with the Russians for interfering, and he fell out with Yanukovych when the serious ructions started, but he's not anti-Russian per se.

 sebster wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Does this new President have broad support from across the country, West and East?

The red bits voted for Poroshenko. The green bit voted for Dobkin.



It's not quite Reagan in 1984, but it's close to that.

Fair enough then. I'm at least satisfied that this new President is legitimate and democratically elected.

Lets hope he can clean up the rest of the Coup imposed government and kick out the fascist elements.

If those Facists elements agree to go quietly

If not, Putin will be there to protect the world from rising authoritarianism.

 Jihadin wrote:
If those Facists elements agree to go quietly

If they refuse to go quietly, will the Ukrainian Government hunt them down with the same zeal and ferocity with which they're hunting down the eastern "terrorists"?

Wait, don't answer that. Rhetorical question.

The situation has gone from bad to worse. There have been over a hundred casualties on both sides in Donyetsk, and the Ukrainian military has started to bomb Donyetsk and Slavyansk indiscriminately. So far they have managed to hit a school, a hospital for children, a policlinic and a kindergarten. So very heroic.
Luckily at least some of the children have been evacuated: http://rt.com/news/162712-slavyansk-children-evacuation-crimea/

Kanluwen wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Well, the election have been somewhat reassuring. The support of the (Western) Ukrainian people for extremist parties is not as great as I had feared. Now Poroshenko only need to purge the fascist scum from those influential positions.
He should also stop the military operation and start dialogue with Donetsk and Lugansk. Unfortenately, it does not look like he is planning that. That is bad. It means there will be only more bloodshed before the seperatists emerge victorious. Ukraine simply does not have the equipment and manpower neccessary to deal with the seperatists. Poroshenko stating that it should be ended in hours is just him talkin big to make himself look good and in control. The truth is that Kiev is everything except in control.

Keep spouting that stuff, Puppetin.

There is NO reason for him to "start dialogue with Donetsk and Lugansk". These "pro-Russian separatists" blocked people from voting, and then this morning seized an airport.

You don't negotiate with that kind of nonsense.

So what, you just kill them? Civilians and all?
Thank God you are not in charge of any country, Stalin.

Wyrmalla wrote:Sad really, I was planning a trip to the country at some point, with all the crap that's gone down there I suppose that won't be happening for a while.

Don't let it put you of. You should definitely visit Ukraine once it has all calmed down. Even without Crimea, there are still plenty of nice places that are really worth a visit, and the Ukrainian economy could use some tourism. Visiting Crimea would also really be worth your while.

Oh, Russia Today, you rascals, you.

Yeah, can we maybe get some independent confirmation?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
So what, you just kill them? Civilians and all?

Uh, yes. Anyone who picks up a weapon and is willing to use it against others isn't a civilian, but an armed combattant. Every singe life lost in the east is mostly to blame on the terrorists that continue to seize public buildings and use them as a mean of protection. They are terrorists, nothing more. They said that they do not WANT to reason. They REFUSED to have any talks with any side involved. Yet they continue to seize parts of Ukraine. Terrorists. Kill everyone of them, I couldn't care less. Ask any civilians to leave the involved regions, as lots of them already did. Every civilian loss is a tragedy and it's even worse when seeing the terrorists using them as protection vs. the army.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
So what, you just kill them? Civilians and all?

Uh, yes. Anyone who picks up a weapon and is willing to use it against others isn't a civilian, but an armed combattant. Every singe life lost in the east is mostly to blame on the terrorists that continue to seize public buildings and use them as a mean of protection. They are terrorists, nothing more. They said that they do not WANT to reason. They REFUSED to have any talks with any side involved. Yet they continue to seize parts of Ukraine. Terrorists. Kill everyone of them, I couldn't care less. Ask any civilians to leave the involved regions, as lots of them already did. Every civilian loss is a tragedy and it's even worse when seeing the terrorists using them as protection vs. the army.

Terrorists? That depends on your viewpoint. The seperatists did not start the killing and agression. It is the Ukrainian army which started shooting, shelling cities and it is the Ukrainian army who is terrorising the East. It is the Ukrainian regime that does not want to talk. First, the people in the East were subjected to an illegal coup that brought people into power they had never voted for and with whom they did not agree. They started protesting, and when their protests went unheard, they seized government buildings, as the pro-Maidan protesters had done before. When the regime still did not want to talk, but sent in police forces, they started arming themselves for self-defense, as the pro-Maidan protesters had done before. When the Ukrainian regime still did not take them seriously, they declared independence. I would hardly call that terrorism. By your logic, the current Ukrainian government is also made up of terrorists, and the Americans are also terrorists, for breaking away from British rule
People taking up arms against a regime are not immediatly terrorists. Terrorists are the kind of people that try to reach their goals by attacking the civilian population and spreading fear. The Ukrainian army is closer to that than the seperatists are.
Every single life lost in the East is to blame on the Ukrainian government and their insistence to solve the issue with violence. The seperatists have already indicated they would like to talk with the Ukrainian government, if only they stop their terrorist operations against the people of the East. The Ukrainian government on the other hand, is the one who constantly refuses to talk to the seperatists, so you are wrong there.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Every single life lost in the East is to blame on the Ukrainian government and their insistence to solve the issue with violence.

Yeah, those officers that got shot when Russia rolled into Crimea totally had it coming.

Fine line between hardcore and stupid

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Every single life lost in the East is to blame on the Ukrainian government and their insistence to solve the issue with violence.

Yeah, those officers that got shot when Russia rolled into Crimea totally had it coming.

That was, what? 2, 3 people?

And how many people has the Ukrainian government killed?

Please be more careful when quoting posts. I did NOT say that. Quite the contrary.

@Iron_Captain: Uhm...did you catch up to the events a few weeks ago? They outright refused to take part in any sort of discussion when asked to both by the government and Russia. Refusing to use diplomacy. Occupying public buildings. Shooting at legitimate forces.

Yep, they're terrorist scum.

Derp, sorry, thought I'd fixed that, I'll fix it immediately.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
So what, you just kill them? Civilians and all?

Every single life lost in the East is to blame on the Ukrainian government and their insistence to solve the issue with violence.

Yeah, those officers that got shot when Russia rolled into Crimea totally had it coming.

That was, what? 2, 3 people?

And how many people has the Ukrainian government killed?

If someone uses the phrase "every single life" and that's inaccurate I'm damn well going to point that out.

Or one might use a hyperbole

Thanks for fixing!

 Sigvatr wrote:
Or one might use a hyperbole

Thanks for fixing!

I'd disagree that "every single life" falls under hyperbole, it's far too specific. "Pretty much every life" would be hyperbole, "every single life" is making an accusation.

 Sigvatr wrote:
@Iron_Captain: Uhm...did you catch up to the events a few weeks ago? They outright refused to take part in any sort of discussion when asked to both by the government and Russia. Refusing to use diplomacy. Occupying public buildings. Shooting at legitimate forces.

Yep, they're terrorist scum.

Again, by your strange definition of terrorists the Ukrainian government itself is made up of terrorists.
The seperatists only refuse to talk with the Ukrainian regime as long as it continues its murderous military operation, while the Ukrainian government does not want to talk at all, unless the seperatists surrender first. You should get your facts straight.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Or one might use a hyperbole

Thanks for fixing!

I'd disagree that "every single life" falls under hyperbole, it's far too specific. "Pretty much every life" would be hyperbole, "every single life" is making an accusation.

hy·per·bo·le
[hahy-pur-buh-lee] Show IPA
noun Rhetoric .
1.
obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2.
an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

Since 'every single life' is quite obviously an exaggeration, it is an obvious hyperbole. 'Pretty much every life' would be a bad hyperbole since it exaggerates too little and might thus get taken literally. The purpose of hyperbole is to emphasise and get a point across, not to get taken literally.

Also, last time I was there, Crimea was not in the East, and Russia 'rolling into Crimea' happened before the current crisis in the East.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Please be more careful when quoting posts. I did NOT say that. Quite the contrary.

@Iron_Captain: Uhm...did you catch up to the events a few weeks ago? They outright refused to take part in any sort of discussion when asked to both by the government and Russia. Refusing to use diplomacy. Occupying public buildings. Shooting at legitimate forces.

Yep, they're terrorist scum.

Hey don't blame me, I just clicked the quote button on AlmightyWalrus's post. Are you sure it wasn't him who messed up the quotes?

 Ketara wrote:
Poroshenko was actually initially a member of Yanukovych's government IIRC. I think he's generally hacked off with the Russians for interfering, and he fell out with Yanukovych when the serious ructions started, but he's not anti-Russian per se.

As I understand the two actually rose to power through the 90s as natural allies, embroiled in the same financial scandals. But Poroshenko was always of an openly pro-Western bent, and returned to politics pretty much just to press the case for moving towards Europe.

He didn't play the issue up massively in this campaign (as I understand it), but it's hard to see his election as anything but a rejection of Russian interference. I mean, there was a pro-Russian candidate, and he got thumped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Fair enough then. I'm at least satisfied that this new President is legitimate and democratically elected.

Lets hope he can clean up the rest of the Coup imposed government and kick out the fascist elements.

That's a pretty fanciful interpretation of events, to be honest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Terrorists? That depends on your viewpoint. The seperatists did not start the killing and agression. It is the Ukrainian army which started shooting, shelling cities and it is the Ukrainian army who is terrorising the East. It is the Ukrainian regime that does not want to talk. First, the people in the East were subjected to an illegal coup that brought people into power they had never voted for and with whom they did not agree. They started protesting, and when their protests went unheard, they seized government buildings, as the pro-Maidan protesters had done before. When the regime still did not want to talk, but sent in police forces, they started arming themselves for self-defense, as the pro-Maidan protesters had done before. When the Ukrainian regime still did not take them seriously, they declared independence. I would hardly call that terrorism. By your logic, the current Ukrainian government is also made up of terrorists, and the Americans are also terrorists, for breaking away from British rule

Except in the case of the American Revolution, the move from peaceful, dialogue driven efforts of towards reform, towards military efforts aimed at securely their own state took decades.

Whereas in the Ukraine its moved from unrest in the capital to armed groups overtaking government buildings in a matter of weeks, days even.

I mean, fething think about it. If I rang the leader of my country tomorrow, and he wasn't available to talk to me right there are then, and so I and my mates cracked out the assault rifles and started taking over government buildings... what in the hell do you think would happen? The government response would be immediate, and rather brutal.

It really staggers me how you just don't get that.

 sebster wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Fair enough then. I'm at least satisfied that this new President is legitimate and democratically elected.

Lets hope he can clean up the rest of the Coup imposed government and kick out the fascist elements.

That's a pretty fanciful interpretation of events, to be honest.

Fanciful? Bollocks.

I've acknowledged that this new President was elected in a legitimate democratic election with broad support across the entire country including the east, barring the places where the Separatist Militant groups have seized power and prevented voting.

Its established fact that the new government was imposed via a Coup which ousted the previous legitimate and elected President.

Its also established fact that Far Right Fascist groups (Svoboda etc) were involved in the Coup, were involved in some of the worst violence during the riots and clashes with the Police, and have had members appointed to senior government positions in the new Coalition government.


This is NOT an interpretation of anything, its just a statement of fact, and I expressed my desire for the new President to clean up the government by kicking out the Fascist elements. For once I'm agreeing with you (that the new President is the legitimate Ukrainian leader), and you call it "a fanciful interpretation" FFS.

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The situation has gone from bad to worse. There have been over a hundred casualties on both sides in Donyetsk, and the Ukrainian military has started to bomb Donyetsk and Slavyansk indiscriminately. So far they have managed to hit a school, a hospital for children, a policlinic and a kindergarten. So very heroic.
Luckily at least some of the children have been evacuated: http://rt.com/news/162712-slavyansk-children-evacuation-crimea/

Kanluwen wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Well, the election have been somewhat reassuring. The support of the (Western) Ukrainian people for extremist parties is not as great as I had feared. Now Poroshenko only need to purge the fascist scum from those influential positions.
He should also stop the military operation and start dialogue with Donetsk and Lugansk. Unfortenately, it does not look like he is planning that. That is bad. It means there will be only more bloodshed before the seperatists emerge victorious. Ukraine simply does not have the equipment and manpower neccessary to deal with the seperatists. Poroshenko stating that it should be ended in hours is just him talkin big to make himself look good and in control. The truth is that Kiev is everything except in control.

Keep spouting that stuff, Puppetin.

There is NO reason for him to "start dialogue with Donetsk and Lugansk". These "pro-Russian separatists" blocked people from voting, and then this morning seized an airport.

You don't negotiate with that kind of nonsense.

So what, you just kill them? Civilians and all?
Thank God you are not in charge of any country, Stalin.

Wyrmalla wrote:Sad really, I was planning a trip to the country at some point, with all the crap that's gone down there I suppose that won't be happening for a while.

Don't let it put you of. You should definitely visit Ukraine once it has all calmed down. Even without Crimea, there are still plenty of nice places that are really worth a visit, and the Ukrainian economy could use some tourism. Visiting Crimea would also really be worth your while.

Did you just call Kanluwen "Stalin?"

 Frazzled wrote:


Did you just call Kanluwen "Stalin?"

Kan did call him "Puppetin".


They're both descending into petty name calling.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Did you just call Kanluwen "Stalin?"

Kan did call him "Puppetin".


They're both descending into petty name calling.

Many Russians would see it as giving compliments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sebster wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Terrorists? That depends on your viewpoint. The seperatists did not start the killing and agression. It is the Ukrainian army which started shooting, shelling cities and it is the Ukrainian army who is terrorising the East. It is the Ukrainian regime that does not want to talk. First, the people in the East were subjected to an illegal coup that brought people into power they had never voted for and with whom they did not agree. They started protesting, and when their protests went unheard, they seized government buildings, as the pro-Maidan protesters had done before. When the regime still did not want to talk, but sent in police forces, they started arming themselves for self-defense, as the pro-Maidan protesters had done before. When the Ukrainian regime still did not take them seriously, they declared independence. I would hardly call that terrorism. By your logic, the current Ukrainian government is also made up of terrorists, and the Americans are also terrorists, for breaking away from British rule

Except in the case of the American Revolution, the move from peaceful, dialogue driven efforts of towards reform, towards military efforts aimed at securely their own state took decades.

Whereas in the Ukraine its moved from unrest in the capital to armed groups overtaking government buildings in a matter of weeks, days even.

I mean, fething think about it. If I rang the leader of my country tomorrow, and he wasn't available to talk to me right there are then, and so I and my mates cracked out the assault rifles and started taking over government buildings... what in the hell do you think would happen? The government response would be immediate, and rather brutal.

It really staggers me how you just don't get that.

Eastern Europe works rather different. Occupying government buildings is far from an ucommon way of protesting. The assault rifles only came out after the Ukrainian military was sent in, the seperatists in the East were only armed with clubs and bars at first.
But no, I do disagree with their way of protesting. I think they should have given it more time. But in their defense, the pro-Maidan protesters did exactly the same thing earlier, and I did not hear you complain about that. The anti-Maidan protesters are just giving them a taste of their own medicine. The difference is that Yanukovich was not so tyrannical as to send in the army, whereas this new regime did so almost immediatly. That says more than enough about who the 'bad guys' are.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Eastern Europe works rather different. Occupying government buildings is far from an ucommon way of protesting. The assault rifles only came out after the Ukrainian military was sent in, the seperatists in the East were only armed with clubs and bars at first.
But no, I do disagree with their way of protesting. I think they should have given it more time. But in their defense, the pro-Maidan protesters did exactly the same thing earlier, and I did not hear you complain about that. The anti-Maidan protesters are just giving them a taste of their own medicine. The difference is that Yanukovich was not so tyrannical as to send in the army, whereas this new regime did so almost immediatly. That says more than enough about who the 'bad guys' are.

Did Yanukovich have NATO tanks rolling into western Ukraine to "protect X nationality"?

NATO troops been committed?

 Jihadin wrote:
NATO troops been committed?

No, what I meant was Yanukovich didn't have foreign troops rolling in annexing parts of the country.

Gotcha

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Fanciful? Bollocks.

You wrote 'coup imposed government' to describe an interim government that is administering the country until proper elections are held.

Calling it fanciful was being kind.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Eastern Europe works rather different. Occupying government buildings is far from an ucommon way of protesting. The assault rifles only came out after the Ukrainian military was sent in, the seperatists in the East were only armed with clubs and bars at first.

They could have taken those buildings with nothing but the power of song, because when the actual legal owners of the buildings turned up to take them back, they set about defending that property with rifles.

Government used guns to take back government property. What in the feth did you think was going to happen? In what country on Earth would you think things would resolve any other way?

But no, I do disagree with their way of protesting. I think they should have given it more time. But in their defense, the pro-Maidan protesters did exactly the same thing earlier, and I did not hear you complain about that. The anti-Maidan protesters are just giving them a taste of their own medicine. The difference is that Yanukovich was not so tyrannical as to send in the army, whereas this new regime did so almost immediatly. That says more than enough about who the 'bad guys' are.

A basic reality of life is there's really no such thing as pre-emptive protection of civil liberties. When you suspect someone is going to breach your civil liberties down the track, as some ethnically Russian Ukrainians felt, then if you act first and start capturing government buildings, then you're actually just an donkey-cave who breaking the law.

You have to actually wait for your civil liberties to be violated before resistance can be justified.

They didn't wait, and so they have no case at all.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Did you just call Kanluwen "Stalin?"

Kan did call him "Puppetin".


They're both descending into petty name calling.

Many Russians would see it as giving compliments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sebster wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Terrorists? That depends on your viewpoint. The seperatists did not start the killing and agression. It is the Ukrainian army which started shooting, shelling cities and it is the Ukrainian army who is terrorising the East. It is the Ukrainian regime that does not want to talk. First, the people in the East were subjected to an illegal coup that brought people into power they had never voted for and with whom they did not agree. They started protesting, and when their protests went unheard, they seized government buildings, as the pro-Maidan protesters had done before. When the regime still did not want to talk, but sent in police forces, they started arming themselves for self-defense, as the pro-Maidan protesters had done before. When the Ukrainian regime still did not take them seriously, they declared independence. I would hardly call that terrorism. By your logic, the current Ukrainian government is also made up of terrorists, and the Americans are also terrorists, for breaking away from British rule

Except in the case of the American Revolution, the move from peaceful, dialogue driven efforts of towards reform, towards military efforts aimed at securely their own state took decades.

Whereas in the Ukraine its moved from unrest in the capital to armed groups overtaking government buildings in a matter of weeks, days even.

I mean, fething think about it. If I rang the leader of my country tomorrow, and he wasn't available to talk to me right there are then, and so I and my mates cracked out the assault rifles and started taking over government buildings... what in the hell do you think would happen? The government response would be immediate, and rather brutal.

It really staggers me how you just don't get that.

Eastern Europe works rather different. Occupying government buildings is far from an ucommon way of protesting. The assault rifles only came out after the Ukrainian military was sent in, the seperatists in the East were only armed with clubs and bars at first.
But no, I do disagree with their way of protesting. I think they should have given it more time. But in their defense, the pro-Maidan protesters did exactly the same thing earlier, and I did not hear you complain about that. The anti-Maidan protesters are just giving them a taste of their own medicine. The difference is that Yanukovich was not so tyrannical as to send in the army, whereas this new regime did so almost immediatly. That says more than enough about who the 'bad guys' are.

They like to be called the commie version of Hitler there? Wow.