NinthMusketeer wrote:

Aren73 wrote:
[spoiler]

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Aren73 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Aren73 wrote:
Could someone clarify if an idoneth force with a leviadon could give it mystic shield and give it negative hit modifiers to such a point that it has a 2+ sv and -2 to hit?

From what we have seen/heard that doesn't seem far fetched. If so, if you are forced to fire at it, that shuts down shooting hard.

Sure, but then your opponent deserves to lose for not shooting at literally anything else. Movement is still a thing, and if it's really that far ahead of the rest of the army then just swamp it in melee.

Yeah but the other rule that forces them to shoot the closest means you can buff it and just throw it in front of their shooty units

Something to remember is that the only army actually running all-shooting is Kharadron. And they have extremely high mobility. The old whfb style gun lines don't really show up anymore.

Maybe they have high mobility but I bet you I could place a leviadon in such a way that it screws them over royally. For kharadrons that rule is brutal, no two ways about it, it will be a huge pain in the ass to get through, especially with a leviadon or two on the board.

As a Kharadron player I'm not concerned that it will be that bad. An uphill battle sure, but there's a lot of shooting that gets +1 to hit or re-rolls against heroes/monsters. There's also several things that grant bonuses against stuff that flies, further the -1 to hit is only in round 1 and the other needs a spell. So the circumstance where all/most of the army has to shoot at the above-buffed Leviadon is pretty much never going to happen because we need:
-Round 1
-Hit penalty spell was successfully cast
-Leviadon is also much closer than any other model
-Mystic shield was successfully cast
-The Kharadron player wasn't outside the 12-18" range needed to bring their firepower to bear anyway
-The Kharadron player isn't and is unable to have a meaningful amount of models being transported (which would allow them to simply run away as a stall tactic until round 2).

Again, this doesn't mean Deepkin aren't a touch matchup but it isn't that bad.

Round 1 all the Idoneth would have to do is stick their leviadon out and everything else kept back a bit (especially that it seems some of it can deep strike). Because of turn 1 cover and the native -1 to hit, the leviadon is on a 2+sv and -1 to hit anyway which is brutal in and of itself. That's assuming the idoneth don't get first turn.

Tbh, round 2 wouldn't be much different. So we move up 12/18 inches, even then the leviadon could be positioned in such a way that it still is the closest model. Essentially, we're counting on the deepkin player playing badly for us to be able to hit anything else.

I don't think it's unwinnable, but it's very tough.

Also, because Kharadrons only get one buff which is reroll 1s to hit/wound. Getting +1 to hit is actually quite difficult and mostly requires allies from other order factions.

No offense, but this is nonsensical. What you said doesn't negate that it is unrealistic that a Kharadron army would be forced to waste most of its shooting on a 2+ save model (that does need mystic shield, monsters don't benefit from cover). And we now know the hit penalty spell doesn't have the range or targeting ability to force that scenario round 1 anyway. Finally, the only Kharadron battleline has +1 to hit heroes/monsters so the faction is guaranteed to have it every game, and there's an allegiance option to give the entire army re-roll 1s to hit and wound against targets that can fly.

With all due respect, while I understand the deepkin rules are new and its easy to make mistakes at least be sure on the established faction you're referencing.

For reference I just ran the numbers using only my army's 24" range shooting against a mystic shield leviadon and its an average of 10.5 wounds, assuming no re rolls at all. With settle the grudges or master the skies its entirely possible to just kill it outright, which is exactly what I would want to do anyways even if I could pick any target I wanted.

Edit: Sorry if the above comes across as abrasive, I don't mean it that way. There's obviously a lot of rules and numbers flying around so it makes it all the more important to double-check them (I was corrected on some stuff just a page ago for that matter).

>Command Traits
>1 Remorsless Raider
Reroll charges for the general
>2 Hunter of Souls
Reroll wound rolls of 1 for the general
>3 Unstoppable Fury
+2Attacks to all weapons on the general during High Tide
>4 Born Again from Agony
+2W wounds for the general
>5 Nemoran(?) Legacy
-1Bravery for every enemy within 12" of the general
>Lord of the Storm and Sea
+2 Bravery for IDK within 12" of the general

>Artefacts (Akhelian only)
>Sanguine Pearl
5+ FnP
>Potion of Hateful Frenzy
once per game +1 to hit and wound for one turn, take a mortal wound afterwards
>An'Kashar (sp?) Spur
+3" Move, reroll 1s to hit for attacks made by the mount
>Armor of Sy'te (sp?)
-1 to hit the bearer in melee
>Bioshock Shell
once per battle each enemy unit within 3" of the bearer takes d3 mortal wounds
>Abyssal Blade
one weapon gets additional -1Rend. also gets +1 damage against Slaanesh models

>Artifacts (availiable to all IDK)
>Rune of the Certain Tide
one use; either +1"Move for all IDK or -1" Move for everybody else for the turn
>Black Pearl
6+ FnP
>Leander's Last Lament
one use; 18" Fearless bubble for IDK
>Teranade (sp?) Venom
Reroll 1s to wound for one weapon. -1 Bravery for models wounded on a 6 with that weapon
>Cloud of Midnights
one use; can't attack or be attacked for one phase
>Whirlshell
one
use; pick enemy hero within 9" and roll 2d6. If you beat the hero's
Bravery he must subtract -1 from all hit rolls for the rest of the
battle.

>Artifacts (Isharann wizards only)
>Steelshell Pearl
5+ FnP against ranged
>Mindflayer
one use; -1 to hit during a combat phase of a enemy unit within 3"
>Drich (sp?) Leach
-1 to cast rolls for wizards (except IDK) within 18" of the bearer
>Orruk Lantern
pick enemy unit within 18" that is in cover; unit doesn't get cover
>Disharmony Stones
one
use; pick up to two enemy heroes within 12", enemy must pick: each hero
suffers a mortal wound on a 3+; each hero suffers d3 mortal wounds on a
5+ or each hero suffers d3 mortal wounds, but on a 4+ you suffer d3
mortal wounds as well
>Brain Barnacle
one
use; pick enemy within 12" and roll 2d6, if the roll is enough to reach
the enemy hero he takes -1 to hit and cast for the rest of the battle

>Artifacts (wizards only)
>Arcane Pearl
5+FnP against mortal wounds
>Sands of Infinity
one use; one 'until your next hero phase'-spell last until the hero phase after that (i.e. two turns).
>Coral Ring
reroll one failed cast per game, also reroll one failed unbind per game
>Bauble of Buoyancy
grants Fly, reroll run rolls
>Krakentooth one use; pick enemy within 12" and roll a die: 1 - bearer takes a mortal
wound, 2-5 – enemy unit suffers d3 mortal wounds, 6 – one enemy model in
the unit is slain if it has less than 10 wounds or suffers 2d6 mortal
wounds if it has more than 10 wounds
>Augury Shells
one
use; roll 2d6, you can substitute that roll for a cast roll by the
bearer or a unbind roll made against a spell made by the bearer

>Spells
>Steed of Tides (5+)
pick hero that's not a monster, remove from battlefield and set up within 24" and at least 9" from the enemy
>Abyssal Tides (5+)
IDK within 9" count as in cover
>Maelstrom (6+)
pick spot within 18" and roll a die for each enemy unit within 3" of that; if roll is less or equal to the number of model in the unit it suffers d3 mortal wounds
>Pressure of the Deep (7+)
pick a model within 12" and roll a die; if greater than the model's wound characteristic it is slain
>Tide of Fear (6+)
pick unit within 12", until next hero phase subtract -1 from hit rolls and bravery
>Arcane Coasion (6+)
pick closest enemy unit within 48" and measure distance to the caster: <=12" target suffers a mortal wound; 13"-24" target suffers two mortal wounds, 25"-36 three mortal wounds, 37"-48" four mortal wounds

>Ritual (all Isharann know these)
roll 2d6, success on a 10+, one per hero phase, +1 if Priest, +1 if within 3" of Shipwreck, +1 for each Isharann hero within 3"
>Erosion
until next hero phase no enemy unit benefits from cover
>Rousing
heal all Eidolons by 1 and reroll all failed hit and casting rolls for Eidolons until next hero phase
>Tempest
enemy units lose Fly until next hero phase

>Ionrach
+1 to casting and unbinding. Command Trait (have to take) allies gain Tides of Death battletrait.
>Dhom-hain
Reroll hit rolls of 1 for Akhelian and Namarti units that made a charge move in the same turn, Rerolls failed wound rolls for Akhelian units that target a monster.
>Fuethan
Reroll hit rolls of 1 for Fuethan units that are affected by Flood Tide (Turn 2), additionally when they would be affected by Ebb Tide (Turn 4) they are instead affected by Flood Tide. In Combat Phase reroll wound rolls of 1 for your mounts.
>Mor'phann
Add +3 to the number of models a Soul Render brings back. Spell (have to take) 6+, if successful pick an visible enemy in 12", they can only move 1" when they Pile In, and any ability that increase their Pile In move are ignored.
>Nautilar
Reroll failed hit rolls for Nautilar units that made a charge move in the same turn. Spell (have to take) 4+, if successful pick an visible Nautilar unit in 12", worsen the Rend of attacks against them by 1.
>Briomdar
Briomdar Soul Scryers can bring three units with them instead of two, and they can be placed wholly within 18" instead of 12", Briomdar units that cannot fly ignore terrain features as though they could fly, they still can't move over models.