Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As described, the dark eldar are supposed to be light raiding forces not really set up for a toe-to-toe battle for a planet.
With this in mind, what things are wrong with the current units and options?

1 They are raiders and need to be on the move so they are primarily armed with rapid fire weak weapons.
2. Dark lances - these are great, make sense as vehicle mounts but on infantry? Sorry you are slowing down the army.
3. They are supposed to be capturing prisoners so they are all good at HTH fighting but they are armed in a fashion that makes this almost impossible. "Dread one, we have captured a marine and it only cost us 18 warriors to do it!!!"

So start with the basics...

Warriors: Cost 12 5-20 in unit. 1 Special weapon per 5 in the squad. Options: Blaster, Shredder, Splinter Cannon

All warriors have infiltrate. All are armed with poisoned blade and plasma grenades. If the models number 10 or less they may have a raider as a dedicated transport for 40 points.

Splinter Rifle: Assault 18" S3 AP 5 ROF 2
Blaster, Shredder, Splinter Cannon remains as is.

Note that poisoned blade is a special weapon and therefore you can never count two of them. Poison is downgraded to 4+.
Infiltrate.


HQ: Archon and Dracon as before. Archon auto-buys a drug-pack and 2+ invulnerable field. Dracon auto-buys a drugpack. Both now have 4+ armor.
Haemonculi Master- The fluff is kind of a synergy of an anti-psycher and an ork painboy. Add an item with a limited range that
mucks with psyker leadership for casting.... kind of like a dog whistle for psykers. Say -3 leadership with a 12" range.

Incubi - Armor reduced to 4+ so they regain Fleet of Foot. Countercharge. (These are bodyguards for Archons and Dracons after all.) May lose blade for free and replace with Blaster or Shredder on 1 per 3.


Elites:
Mandrakes: Deep Strike, may assault out of deep strike. (Gets rid of the stupid old deployment rules)
Cost as before. These are armed with haywire grenades, plasma grenades and 2 poisoned blades and pistol.

Wyches: 15 To simplify... Have preferred enemy against all due to their experience in hand-to-hand.
Armed with 2 poisoned blades and pistol. Skill also allows reroll to hits. 5+ invulnerable in HTH.
1 per 5 may replace with blaster or shredder. Drugs: Fearless.
May have a raider for a transport for 40 points.
Grotesques: Fearless, Feel no Pain, Stupidity. No more autorunaway.
Haemonculous (lesser) Armed with poison scissors and flamer. (Squad leader to lead them.)

Harlequins: See Eldar Codex
Fast Attacks:
Bikes: Cost: 22 Improve to 3+ armor. (They don't look any lighter than an eldar jetbike)
Base weapon is a vehicle mounted splinterrifle. Gets ROF of 3.
1 Blaster or shredder for every 3 bikes. Size: 3-12
Scouts. Drugs: Fearless

WarpBeasts - Unchanged

Hellions: As is. Drugs: +1 Strength and fearless.

Heavy: Ravager as is.
Talos: It floats but it is slow? Operates as a walker but has fleet.
Weapon: Changed to vehicle mounted splinter cannon twin-linked.

Scourges: 15 cost. Armed with poisoned blade and splinter rifle. For 10 points may have splinter cannon, blaster or shredder up to 4.


Summary:
No more gun-line dark lances. Splinter rifles are Assault weapons so they can shoot and assault. Poisoned weapons makes dark eldar warrior assaults something to fear. Everything in the army is built for speed at the cost of protection. Most of the army infiltrates so it can outflank or inch that little bit closer to the enemy. Mandrakes, are deadly useful. The talos doesn't fall behind the fleeting warriors. Scourges can actually move and use their weapons. The randomness of drugs is gone except for the archon and dracon. Warriors are not cheap but I priced them like Eldar dire avengers. Poisoned blades and assault splinter rifles makes them much more lethal. Giving them all infiltrate makes on foot armies able to slink closer and deploy last no matter what or it allows the army to make heavy use of the outflanking rule.

Thoughts? Discussion?

... wow ... ok i'm not a fan of every thing, you've lost so much of what i enjoy playing against

... combat drugs let them roll a D6 at the start, make taking drugs more fun...

... Scourges ok darklance doesn't work well with jump packs ... so give them jetpacks for move and shoot goodness ...

...WarpBeasts ... i think i'd like to steal an idea from WH ... Beast master is an IC but can join wyche units ... during the shooting phase he can chose to call in the Warp Beast ... roll for reserves, if the roll is failed nothing happens ... but when it does he leaves any unit he was with an forms the center of the deeps strike or if a unit is with 6" of him he can chose to assualt them, he an the warp beast are placed in assualt with the unit ... this counts as a charge and a unit that the beastmaster was with is unaffected...

Talos ... should ether be a skimmer or a jetpack ... if its a skimmer give it an armour value and should also be able to tank charge

Jebikes ... yep drop the points to say 17-20 leave as is (possibly giving them the much debated T4(5) )

raider ... Front armour 10 sided armour 10 rear armour 11 or 12 ... ? oh it so people don't feel like getting into CC with them ... also ravagers FA 11 SA 11 RA 11 or 12

I know the drug rolls are fun but I tried to follow the general spirit of the changes they have been making to the codexes starting with Chaos Space Marines and Dark Angels codexes. They have dumbed them down... The only benefit is that you know what the drug effect is. No markers no keeping track of what each squad has when you play 6 cult units.

The biggest change to me was the major upgrade of warriors, making splinter rifles assault weapons and getting rid of man-portable dark lances. From the character and fluff of the army as quick hitting raiders, the most common abuse I see are the gun lines of on foot dark eldar with 2 dark lances. 100 points x 6 back it up with 3 ravagers and play dark lance assassins. It looks like anything but a fast, quick hitting army.

I laughed when I read your thought on the Talos. I started out by classifying them as a jetbike but then I imagined 3 x talos doing the
engage turboboost on the first turn and rocketting 24" across the board with a 3+ invulnerable. I think every opponent would scream cheese. Alright how about giving it the beast profile? 6" move, fleet and 12" assault?

I also didn't talk about vehicle upgrades. These are kind of warped eldar so the technology should be similar.
I would like them to have an upgrade that gives them a 4+ cover save.
Some form of anti-assault protection similar to the flechette projectors on Tau vehicles. (Istead of rear heavy armor.)
They should be masters of the night but they are blind!!! Perhaps some night targeter making night vision x4 on the roll instead of x3.
Leave the horrorfex option and classify it as a defensive weapon.

Special rule for a ravager - all weapons my fire at up to 12" movement. I know it is a throwback to 4th edition but it gives them a reason not to go with 1 darklance and 2 disintegrators. It also fits the raider theme better. They are after all open topped rhinos so they will die if a missile launcher looks at them cross eyed.

I could accept removing the warp beasts as a separate fast attack and maybe making warp beasts as upgrade options available to wyche squad leaders. Is that what you were thinking?

Tri wrote:...make taking drugs more fun...

quoted for the truth.

Seriously. I like the direction, but the poisoned is bad. Makes your warriors cost a lot and they still blow in HTH

Na missed the point with the Talos ... Jet packs can only move 6" and if they want 6" more in the assualt phase ... also if it was a skimmer i'd say 6" only (like a monolith)+ 6" charge

Warp beasts ... i ment keep them as a bonuse non FOC unit ... must have been the WH, could have sworn that was the short for for fanstasy BRB? any way he'd ack like a night goblin fanatic and basicly jump out summoning the warp beasts

ie W= wyche, B = warp beast, M = beast master, E = enemy

WWWW........EE
WWMW.........EE
WWWW........EE

then
WWWW.....BBEE
WW...W.....MBEE
WWWW.....BBEE

so that the wyches can play with some thing else .. or join in


I don't tend to see Dark lance lines ...against my army, and the armys my local gaming group plays with, it just doesn't work ... problem here is wych armys which can be much worse.

oh any thing to stop the skimmers being easily killed in CC would be a bonuse for DE players i said armour 11 as that would stop most people from killing it ( fletch is a good idea but cover save would only help at range)

I'd make splinter rifles the same stats as Shuriken catapults but be Str X (wound on 4+) like Sniper rifles, I'd also give warriors two close combat weapons and frag grenades as standard.

DAaddict wrote:
Summary:
No more gun-line dark lances. Splinter rifles are Assault weapons so they can shoot and assault. Poisoned weapons makes dark eldar warrior assaults something to fear. Everything in the army is built for speed at the cost of protection. Most of the army infiltrates so it can outflank or inch that little bit closer to the enemy. Mandrakes, are deadly useful. The talos doesn't fall behind the fleeting warriors. Scourges can actually move and use their weapons. The randomness of drugs is gone except for the archon and dracon. Warriors are not cheap but I priced them like Eldar dire avengers. Poisoned blades and assault splinter rifles makes them much more lethal. Giving them all infiltrate makes on foot armies able to slink closer and deploy last no matter what or it allows the army to make heavy use of the outflanking rule.

Thoughts? Discussion?

I like the poisoned weapon thing. Thing is, maybe people LIKE Dark Lance gun lines. The option is worth having, at least. I like the change to Splinter Rifles. Assault Splinter Rifles, Poisoned Weapons (which are only S4 vs MEQ) and long range Heavy Weapons that are stand and shoot give them options.

Infiltrate and Outflank goes great with the Raiders.

The upgrades to the more useless units seems thought out.

I like the Talos change. Maybe simply add D6" to its movement and let it shoot its gun, too?

They might be overcosted at 12 points for only T3 5+, although it is true they infiltrate. I would not consider the poisoned weapons thing to be a real big deal. Only S4 vs MEQ, S3 vs T3. Bikes are rare. Bonus against Monstrous Creatures, while no grenades for Dreadnoughts.

Generally it looks like a solid change, well thought out.

I had a couple ideas for new DE units that I felt filled alot of the holes unit-wise in the codex:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154896

I had put them up here on Dakka but no one really looked at them.

I wanted to tap into the various DE elements that were not developed enough. Basic concepts, Wyches on a chariot pulled by a big warp beast and a unit of Thralls (or various slave types) with a larger raider type transport.

Other idea I had was to give the Warp beast pack master a variety of warp beasts to choose from, a menagerie of gladiatorial animals.

I thought giving the option to arm 20 warriors with 4 blasters would make up for the gun line. Sure you have to get close.

Alright... how about move the scourges to fast attack and then give the old gun line unit as a heavy...

Up to 20 warriors may upgrade 1 per 5 to a dark lance for 20. You have it back but with warriors costing 12, this is a 320 point unit.
If below 10 may have a raider for 40 points.

Well I will share the other idea on spinter weapons that my nephew and I talked about...

Splinters are small shards, they can potentially get through anything but they are also brittle...

Splinter pistol Str 2 AP - Assault 2 R 12"
Splinter Rifle Str 2 AP- Assault 2 R 18"
Spinter Rifle (Bike) Str 2 AP- Assault 2 R 18"
Spinter Cannon Str 3 AP- Assault 6 R 18"


AP - so even orc tire tread armor can stop it sometimes.

The ROF is the killer and with the exception of the splinter cannon. You need 6's to wound and guess what, that means it is rending.
They also can potentially glance on Armor 11 (12 for cannons)

I just thought this was a little too over the top. But I must admit it would be funny to have DE warriors just light up plague bearers.

This is fine for doing a light raiding force, and pretty fair at bringing back Eldar Pirates.

But the fundamental problem is that it's a small scenario force, not a 40k army. And 40k has moved on to really being about armies.

So to move forward, Dark Eldar will need to be totally reconcepted before they can be relaunched properly.

Personally, I like the idea of Chaos Eldar / Crone Worlds, which is what I was kind of hoping we'd have gotten in the first place.

I disagree that the DE cannot be updated and made viable.
They suffer from overall high skill offset by eldar toughness and strength.

If they get reconcepted, I think that they are much like my feeling about Demons and Chaos Marines. Two codexes with holes in them rather than a viable force. I know that both work but there are so many worthless chaff in them. And come on, generic demons in CSM that can deep strike but have no personality and demons that are basically a "lets worship nurgle and a couple of his buddies."
What makes demons tend to work Soul Grinders... what does it bear a striking resemblance to? They all spit phlem it seems... hmmm battle cannon by another name.

My issue with a reconcept would be how do you differentiate them from Eldar? I would rather see the dark eldar combined with the Eldar if that is the case. I wouldn't mind unloading shuriken catapult guardians from a raider or a load of banshees from a raider for that matter but then we end up splitting races into multiple bland codexes.

The speed and overall professional feel of a Dark Eldar army as compared to the citizen soldier eldar with some super elites is something that the eldar cannot match. On the other hand the paper vehicles and relative light armor makes Dark Eldar very brittle.
That brittleness makes them an interesting play. With psychers, eldar feel resiliant by comparison but the dark eldar have a feel of
lethality that the eldar dream of... Sure the aspect warriors are awesome but they are highly specialized in their roles. The Dark Eldar
basic trooper fires accurately and has very lethal special and heavy weapons spread throughout. The Eldar are more like a complicated dance.

I think the Dark Eldar can be kept viable with relatively minor adjustments. Right now, when I see DE armies, I have the feeling of watching Orcs before they got their new codex, tantalyzingly close but always just a little short or it seems one turn off.

The other I suppose is we could do it the GW way. Instead of making ARMIES interesting and varied, we can just throw a new codex, add two or three new units and include a bunch of special characters that inclusively are the right answer for any army you face.

If it were an ARMY based game, then I would argue that the special characters should once more be relegated to the background as fluff and only pulled out for large points or special situations. However, sadly, GW has decided to take an army based game and throw character all over it.

I have read the WHFB books, the figs look interesting but every battle report talks about manuevering armies around and then how this or that special character just wiped the table clean. Sorry this is not an army game it is D&D in 3 dimensions. I am afraid this is what 40k will turn into. Rather than deciding army composition and determining what are the right forces, it is going to be which special character will throw the game in my favor. So build your generic marines, and buy 5 or 6 special characters and wipe the table of any opposition by just selecting the right one to blast your opponent into oblivion.

I think they started messing it up with the Eldar codex, took it a step further with the Ork codex and are now full blown messing with it with the Space Marine codex.

<deep breath> Okay, sorry for the rant but while I do enjoy all the aspects of 40k - painting, friends, Theoryhammer, playing. I am not too please with the direction the current leads at GW are taking the game. Broken though 3rd and 4th ed codexes may have alternately been, this fixation with individual characters just bugs me to no end.

I don't think DE need to be reconceived. So their space pirate-gladiator-drug user-raiders. Scale of the game for them becomes a mater of just looking at whats missing and filling it in, in ways that fit.

DE have every archetype for fast attack in the 40k book, but what is lacking for a larger scale than a raid are units that have survivability and longevity and heavier vehicles.

Well I think there are a couple ways that could quickly bring DE up to being a larger game force.
+The addition of harlequins (which fluffishly work with DE) have a better survivability than any DE infantry.
+Give the Ravager an armor boost while increasing the number of Dark Lances (and subsequent disintegrator option) to 5. (if you don't like that, remember there's always a bigger pirate ship).
+Because you can't improve toughness for DE, you can incorporate a cannon fodder unit such as the one I recommended before.
+The addition of a vehicle option to give DE vehicles better survivability, "Shadow Field" any unit firing at must fire as if night fighting.

What are some thoughts on some other vehicle upgrades? I'd love to see something that gave raiders the ability to deepstrike. Also something that helped in assaulting out of Raiders would be fitting.

It would be cool to see the Ravager become like a Battlewagon is for Orks.

Its important to realize that Necrons started out initially just as raiders and the orks were treated in a similar way for a while, both of those eventually got expanded to fill them out, that's all that DE need too. The unique themes are just what need to be accentuated most.

I think in distinguishing DE from Eldar the first thing that most openly separates the two, is the DE proximity to the darker parts of the warp, the utilization of warp beasts is an example of that.

Another thing to think, is to perceive some of the DE units almost as Aspect warriors, that represent the aspects of DE not present in the eldar. This is where the combat drugs and poison, and gladiatorial combat become represented.

Another thing is that the DE unlike Eldar take slaves and make active use of them, even training them to fight in the gladiatorial arenas. The codex also makes mention of humans actively working with DE.

DAaddict wrote:I disagree that the DE cannot be updated and made viable.

I didn't say that they couldn't be updated and made viable.

I actually believe very strongly that the DE are in dire need of being updated in order to be made viable.

DAaddict wrote:If they get reconcepted, I think that they are much like my feeling about Demons and Chaos Marines. Two codexes with holes in them rather than a viable force. I know that both work but there are so many worthless chaff in them.

*Every* Codex has "holes", and that is actually a hallmark of good design. It accentuates differences between armies, and future-proofs the army by carving out options in the gaming space that other armies won't step on. As for what's "worthless chaff", there is very little like that in there. There are things that aren't totally reliable or costed for their multi-modal capabilities, or cost-biased due to army theme. It says: "this army is good at X, not so good at Y, and Z just isn't something that they do". There is no problem with any of that.

I'm not sure about the Daemons book, but with respect to CSM, their generic Daemons are all excellent for the points and role: they're extra Scoring units that arrive where you need them, and contribute to the fight when they get there. All good.

DAaddict wrote:My issue with a reconcept would be how do you differentiate them from Eldar?

For starters, Dark Eldar should be WS4 BS4 generalists with Sv5+ max; Eldar should stay as specialists, but should be reworked to Sv4+ min.

But the real trick with Dark Eldar is to converting them to an "army".

I say, use the Reserves mechanic, and have a second wave that comes in following the initial light forces. The initial light raider forces move fast, infiltrate, scout, ec. to place webway portals and make initial. The second wave deep strikes / teleports / portals in and hits harder to clean up. If these include generic Daemons and various Warp entities, that's great.

Basically, convert the DE army into something with elements that the player balances and coordinates over the duration of the game.

I don't know, it strikes me that as a large raiding force, you'd actually have the opposite. I don't really imagine a raiding force to have the luxury of reserves, they'd want to hit hard, hit fast and get going as quickly as possible. Even with a raider force smaller than the enemies forces, you'd think if they were to attack they'd still go in an out fast. The key tactical difference between raiders and standing army is that a raiding force would avoid a protracted battle at all cost. That in general they'd run rather than call for reinforcements.

I don't think dark eldar should have demons; it does not help make them distinctive.

As I see it, Dark Eldar don't have the luxury of making everything fast - the initial forces are quick, but after that, things arrive to reinforce and exploit.

Also, if they're Raiders, then they don't have any business engaging standing armies in 40k-style battles. They revert back to being a scenario rather than an army.

I think in a lot of way speed is a big theme of the Dark Eldar. Every DE unit is either fast in some way or can take a transport. So to some degree DE do have the luxury of making everything fast.

Well presumably a raiding force might still engage a standing army to achieve more pinpoint goals, making surprise attacks and taking supplies. Or they'd be making large scale hit and run attacks as a means to keep military lines unstable. They'd also make attacks on rear guard forces to throw their enemy in confusion.

Agreed. I think even in 5th edition DE can work well in the objectives based games. Their challenge remains on KP scenarios. They can forfeit a lot of stuff to contest or control objectives. They also have a lot of nasty firepower in their army that is accurate. Their problem in life is that they have only two dependable close combat options... incubi and wyches. Of course a dracon or archon on their own will do just fine but their average trooper will be hard pressed to beat anything but IG, eldar guardians and tau in close combat. To my mind, that is where a change in the splinter rifle is necessary. By making it assault 18", it can unload and still charge and it has a decent range compared to a rapid fire weapon that forces immobility to fire. I figure if it was good enough for an ork shoota boy, it is good for a DE warrior.

Don't get me wrong, because of volume of accurate fire, they can win KP games but invariably, you see raiders smoked all over the table and warrior squads shot to pieces and/or broken within the first 3 turns. Their loss of firepower is atrocious from round to round.

The biggie I did otherwise was adding infiltrate to the base warriors... so if you run on foot you can select closer or further from the enemy after they deploy. You know, I can breath on the Tau fire warrior lines but I can maintain a healthy distance from potentially scuttling genestealers. This gives them flexibility but not overpowering because it always has to be with the concept that DE warriors die in droves if the enemy decides to shoot at them.

The poisoned blades (4+) gives them a prayer to wound and overcome in close combat especially with I 5. But they still live with 5+ AC and T 3. So they can hit and hit hard but if you miscalculate or are overly aggressive they will still die.

I am only hesitant on poisoned blades because it makes them deadly to carnifexes and wraithlords so perhaps it needs to be toned down but I still think a basic dark eldar warrior needs something... They should dominate any eldar guardian in shooting or hand to hand but they should be worse than Dire Avengers at shooting and inferior to striking scorpions or banshees in hand to hand. It is hitting this balance that I was trying to get to.

They are inferior just based on armor and dire avengers have same range and S4 weapons. They can win every now and then just on the wounds that Poison 4+ will give them and because they hit first, they can win some combats... But Slaanesh demons or marines will eat them alive as would any of the aspect close combat units. It is a calculated risk to assault any marine since I still have to slice through that 3+ armor they have on.

The cost of 12 could be argued but... better weapon, infiltrate, plasma grenades and poisoned weapons all are worth something. The issue to me would be is all of this flexibility making a DE warrior worth two ork boyz? That I am not sure of but then the eldar should always be at a disadvantage to an ork one on one it is the options that a dark eldar has at other spots that make them viable.

My other debates are two problems in a 5th edition world.
Templates and blast markers. This army sorely lacks any of them. Blasters? Okay at S6 small blast but inferior to a flamer for such close in work. Horrorfex? Cool a maybe pinning weapon so that what? A DE warrior can assault the unit? Haemonculi weapons... okay so maybe what 3 HQ characters that have a flamer.

Some possibilities would be a large blast weapon or a ravager with a trio of long ranged blast templates. A flamer would be nice and if you have ever seen war footage, a true terror weapon and from that respect would fit a dark eldar theme nicely.
As far as a large blast or more specifically an ordinance weapon slows the army down so it does not fit. large blast assault? well the tyrannids can do it so perhaps with a short range like 18" or something like that but now we have a paper vehicle with a nasty weapon sounds dead to me.... Perhaps a vehicle upgrade as a one shot weapon... Something like Tau seeker missiles or HKs but intended more for a shock weapon... like a WWII hedgehog ASW weapon... a mass discharger of frag grenades but way too time intensive to reload in battle. So like an 18" range S3 AP6 large blast that causes a pin test if any casualties are suffered.

Agreed. I think even in 5th edition DE can work well in the objectives based games. Their challenge remains on KP scenarios. They can forfeit a lot of stuff to contest or control objectives. They also have a lot of nasty firepower in their army that is accurate. Their problem in life is that they have only two dependable close combat options... incubi and wyches. Of course a dracon or archon on their own will do just fine but their average trooper will be hard pressed to beat anything but IG, eldar guardians and tau in close combat. To my mind, that is where a change in the splinter rifle is necessary. By making it assault 18", it can unload and still charge and it has a decent range compared to a rapid fire weapon that forces immobility to fire. I figure if it was good enough for an ork shoota boy, it is good for a DE warrior.

Don't get me wrong, because of volume of accurate fire, they can win KP games but invariably, you see raiders smoked all over the table and warrior squads shot to pieces and/or broken within the first 3 turns. Their loss of firepower is atrocious from round to round.

The biggie I did otherwise was adding infiltrate to the base warriors... so if you run on foot you can select closer or further from the enemy after they deploy. You know, I can breath on the Tau fire warrior lines but I can maintain a healthy distance from potentially scuttling genestealers. This gives them flexibility but not overpowering because it always has to be with the concept that DE warriors die in droves if the enemy decides to shoot at them.

The poisoned blades (4+) gives them a prayer to wound and overcome in close combat especially with I 5. But they still live with 5+ AC and T 3. So they can hit and hit hard but if you miscalculate or are overly aggressive they will still die.

I am only hesitant on poisoned blades because it makes them deadly to carnifexes and wraithlords so perhaps it needs to be toned down but I still think a basic dark eldar warrior needs something... They should dominate any eldar guardian in shooting or hand to hand but they should be worse than Dire Avengers at shooting and inferior to striking scorpions or banshees in hand to hand. It is hitting this balance that I was trying to get to.

They are inferior just based on armor and dire avengers have same range and S4 weapons. They can win every now and then just on the wounds that Poison 4+ will give them and because they hit first, they can win some combats... But Slaanesh demons or marines will eat them alive as would any of the aspect close combat units. It is a calculated risk to assault any marine since I still have to slice through that 3+ armor they have on.

The cost of 12 could be argued but... better weapon, infiltrate, plasma grenades and poisoned weapons all are worth something. The issue to me would be is all of this flexibility making a DE warrior worth two ork boyz? That I am not sure of but then the eldar should always be at a disadvantage to an ork one on one it is the options that a dark eldar has at other spots that make them viable.

My other debates are two problems in a 5th edition world.
Templates and blast markers. This army sorely lacks any of them. Blasters? Okay at S6 small blast but inferior to a flamer for such close in work. Horrorfex? Cool a maybe pinning weapon so that what? A DE warrior can assault the unit? Haemonculi weapons... okay so maybe what 3 HQ characters that have a flamer.

Some possibilities would be a large blast weapon or a ravager with a trio of long ranged blast templates. A flamer would be nice and if you have ever seen war footage, a true terror weapon and from that respect would fit a dark eldar theme nicely.
As far as a large blast or more specifically an ordinance weapon slows the army down so it does not fit. large blast assault? well the tyrannids can do it so perhaps with a short range like 18" or something like that but now we have a paper vehicle with a nasty weapon sounds dead to me.... Perhaps a vehicle upgrade as a one shot weapon... Something like Tau seeker missiles or HKs but intended more for a shock weapon... like a WWII hedgehog ASW weapon... a mass discharger of frag grenades but way too time intensive to reload in battle. So like an 18" range S3 AP6 large blast that causes a pin test if any casualties are suffered.

Overall some of your initial concepts have merit.

I can see a short ranged heavier weapon being introduced for lords only. It seems a waste to have a high ballistic skill and no good weapon to shoot with it. Str 4-6, AP 4 or something? I don't think they would force a shadow field on a character. I would think retinue's would be gone, but I am not so sure for DE with the fluff. Incubi will likely become Elites, and 4+ armor as elites is fine with me, but mayhaps a retinue option is 3+? I never understand why they would even have weapons other than what they have, blasters and shredders should be removed. Haywire options fine, but they are not shooty. Special characters are all the rage, Decapitator still no fig, but a better save of some kind is in order.

Haemmies, how I love the, let me count the ways. I would love a coven army option, but be that as it may, they really do work. Grotesque body guard should be an option and grotesques should have some kind of armor as any good DE would put armor on a stupid meat shield. Making them immune to a certain strength in CC would be nasty, so armor makes more sense. FNP should be the universal rule or gone totally.

Wyches would not use poison in a gladiatorial fight, it is a test of skills martial. Mandrakes would use poisoned blades, so on them would be a fine change. Wyches are the masters of CC and 4+ save is fine, nothing about the wyches is wrong imo save the point balance. Wych weapons work as is, all other options work.

Warp beast should have some kind of special thing, they are demons afterall a 6+ invuln save or the like. I always felt some kind of Tyranid biomorph system could make them very flavorful. They are special trained and demons in the most common sense. Perhaps feeder teeth(tendrils) or some kind of plasma grenade effect.

As stated Mandrakes need a boost with poisoned blades 4+, or a leader which does not make much sense to me. I like the idea of the special deployment you have, shadow skin can stay that way.

Warriors the only troop option unless you go wych cult. The basics are fine, assault weapons maybe with a kroot feel, str 4 with blades on them? They are spiky afterall, and those spikes should do something. I do think a veteran type of warrior with 4+ armor options has merit. 4+ armor is not heavy armor as evident by our Eldar cousins. I don't have an issue with DE gunlines, but changing it to one DL per 10 works much better than removing the option.

Raiders will be dropped in price, I think 11 Armor in front is likely, maybe even on the sides, other than that, they are great. I would think the Ravager goes 12 all around except in the rear armor. Devoting heavier weapons to bring down transports seems to be a theme in 5th, well making vehicles more survivable anyways, and making them nigh immune to str 4 basic weapons is something to think on. A wargear field maybe an option. Ravager could be deemed a fast tank, giving a few options.

Scourges are fast attack imo, they need to have a move and shoot or brace ability. Perhaps add disentagrators as an option and remove splinter cannons if they stay heavy support. Heavy support should have heavier armor in any event.

Reavers get 2 attacks base or reduction in points they seem to be CC troops but lack that punch. Hit and run would make this a very interesting unit. DE are supposed to be lightning fast, and everyone and there battle brother can turbo boost. It is insulting, really what is speed when it is matched or faster from other armies.

Hellions especially a character upgrade is very pricey, they need some kind of swoop from the skies rule. Swooping Hawks anyone? Honestly they are such cool models it is a shame they are not fielded more. Power weapons on the charge, or the boards give them something. Merely str 4 on the charge is not bad, but splinter weaponry should be assault anyways so there is that as a base upgrade.

Talos is a MC all the way with every rule, I like that, it can run, move through cover. I would get rid of the talos claws special vs vehicles. Base attacks should be 2+ d6, it has 2 claws after all, make that clear. Upgrades for its special weapon, perhaps a stinger weapon effect? That would be fluffy. No turbo boosting talos here, and it is a cover save not an invulnerable 3+ btw.

Wargear will get revamped and I won't really touch on that, but a anti-psyker option is there and possibly something far more dangerous is needed. DE via fluff have more or less hunter psykers and removed them or use them in some capacity. They should be fairly good at removing that threat.

I think Dark Eldar need some more special and heavy weapons in general. Unlike the Eldar the Dark eldar don't have the aspect warriors with their specialized gear, and really need some options that can fill some of those roles.

I think warp beasts are one of the things that could be expanded upon, maybe have varieties of them. Its important to realize that while Daemons are warp beasts, warp beast aren't daemons. The key difference being that they aren't spawned from the essence of chaos. That Daemons are made of the stuff of chaos is what makes them daemonic. Its a fine distinction and it could always be changed, but that is what it is right now.

I think some sort of a Ravager variant with a single large blast cannon on the front, kinda built straight into the hull in place of the prow, would be cool to see, but if its more than one shot I think it could be powerful, but it should not be intended as artillery and should be kept in the Demolisher cannon sort of range. I like the name "Subjugation Cannon." Make it some thing like S6 but always wounds on 4+.

I like giving the talos fleet, but they can run now so maybe that's not such a big deal. I also have always thought that scourges should be able to take blasters. Dark lances make no sense.


Overall though, I do not like these changes. Warriors are already the best basic troops in the game. For 8 pts you get guardians with ws and bs 4 who can take 2 heavy weapons and two special weapons, or take a raider and have fleet of foot. This is awesome. Poisoned blades is not worth a 50% increase in price.


What I do like poisoned blades for is mandrakes. I've always felt that they should come with poisoned blades.

The poisoned blades aren't the real reason for the point increase, I was thinking the infiltrate is gold in 5th edition. That is pre-game mobility that your basic trooper has. Like I said, you can argue it should cost less.

My goal is to make them viable not god-like for the same cost and I don't think they are god-like and the cost off sets it against the other armies out there... We can argue 10 points per... they are still T3 and 4+ poison is not going to dominate any close combat specialist unit.

As others have said, we could give them 4+ armor maybe... but that makes them... in my opinion superior to tau warriors in every way

Can a skimmer really "fleet"? I mean shouldn't the Talos really be redone as a dreadnought type vehicle that happens to be a skimmer, then it could benefit from "flat out." Also does anyone else think it needs more in the way of weapon options?

aka_mythos wrote:Can a skimmer really "fleet"? I mean shouldn't the Talos really be redone as a dreadnought type vehicle that happens to be a skimmer, then it could benefit from "flat out." Also does anyone else think it needs more in the way of weapon options?

Well the latest FAQ spelled it out that the direction the Talos is moving is to a pure Monstrous Creature. Grav engines can mean nearly any mode of creative movement.

I do think the Talos needs more in the way of options and weapons. It is the only real tough unit the DE have, and I think at the very least the Talos Sting should be a stinger cannon effect. Blowing up multiple models just sounds like fun and mayhem. A Haemonculi made it, why would the Talos Sting not be some kind of poison? It just reeks of poor design. If we go by other dreadnaughts the Talos is woefully behind, or compare it to say a Carnifex they seem to be closely matched except for options.

I would think a Talos in CC would take a Carnifex, but any other Dreadnaught would be iffy especially the nasty venerable ones.

Warriors are the best value in the game, I just think kroot rifle type abilities(I believe it offers +1 str and +1 attack) would solve 2 issues, strength and attacks. Maybe it only works on the charge or something to balance it out. The the models already have 2 handed weapon with spiky bits and also a pistol and cc weapon. They just need the ability in the rules to take that option. Being the only real troop choice makes is very limited and less flexible than nearly every other army save necrons.

The Talos really doesn't strike me as a montrous creature. If it does go that way and the model is redesigned to suit it I think it helps makes the DE more distinctive.

The talos getting speed is an issue. The question is how powerful should it be, how fast and cost how much.

the 1d6 attacks makes it very schizophrenic.. One round your opponent thinks they are total wimps and the next they slaughter a squad.

The weapon rule in the codex is just fiddly. shoot 1 shot at each fig closest till the shots run out. Time waster and dumb.

My wish list would be.

1. Get it so it goes faster than any on foot dark eldar. It should be able to lead an on-foot charge.
2. To make it somewhat more survivable, give it FnP. (Look at it, you have a flayed body attached to it, what you gonna do that hurts worse than the haemonculi did to it.)
3. Improve the weapon without making it too powerful.

So I have fleeting DE warriors moving an average of 9.5" and 6" charge. I like the beast rules to cover it best that way it is marching
as fast as the troopers but it gets a speedy 12" charge. It also gets to double it's move through difficult terrain so it can pile its way through obstructions.

Feel no pain leaves it susceptible to all the low strength standard weapons but improves its survival from mass fire from standard weapons.

I thought TL splinter cannon leaves it okay at shooting but also leaves it still as the close combat option for the dark eldar heavy choice. I would say this would be a prime candidate for some flamer template weapon... one of the things this army just doesn't have.
Give you a random alternative to the TL splinter cannon... make it splinter rifle stats,... S3 AP5 Large Blast. Lower that BS to 2. Range 18". Now that represents a hail of fire coming out of it but with the inaccuracy, it is going to potentially catch your own troops.

It is currently 100 pts so the question then would be should it stay there or does it need to be adjusted?