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A situation came up in a game the other week...

I dropped a Crisis suit that landed point blank in front of my opponent's Predator. That turn, the suit popped off a land raider instead of dealing with the more immediate threat.

Now, during his shooting phase next turn, he hadn't moved his Pred at all. He insisted that he could shoot my guy with both sponsons and the turret. The crisis was tall, so I could give him the turret easy (even if there really wasn't much LOS). But he started yelling like a hysterical bitch when I even showed him the sponson diagram in the book, insisting that it was "obvious" that both side-guns could fire. Keep in mind, my Crisis was exactly 1" dead center in front of his tank.

His arguements -
A) Side Sponsons ignore the model so they can "fire through it" if they can angle towards the target.
B) The rules allow pivoting on the spot for vehicles so weapons can shoot. Shoot one side, pivot, shoot the other side.

My arguement -
A) Even the diagram in the book shows a dead-zone for side-sponsons, its very specific in the picture. If he had backed up just a few inches, he could have nailed me with both.
B) The "free pivot" needs to be done only before all weapons shoot.

I just got tired of arguing and let him have it. He missed anyways with both sponsons, and my shield saved the twin-linked turret shot, and lost his pred in turn 3. That Helios was on fire!

So, in the future...which way is it really?

Well, like you said, the diagram is exceedingly clear about the dead zone. But, as with everything else in this edition, it's all about TLOS. If you can start from the sponson mount point, sight down the barrel, and see the model past the edge of the tank, you can shoot. Otherwise, you can't shoot. If the guns don't actually pivot, just look along the line from the mounting point in the most logical direction. I think what you'll find is that even though there is a dead point, you'll probably be able to see a bit of a Crisis suit, as it's fairly large. If it were a Land Raider, I doubt you could see, and likewise if it were something small in front of the Predator (like a single Stealth Suit). But since he can shoot if he sees any little part of the torso or arm, more than likely he could get the shots. That's just a guess though, as I don't have a Predator in front of me to try it.

And you're exactly right about the pivot thing. Since all its weapons fire simultaneously, there's no way to fire one, pivot, then fire the other.

Both of your opponent's arguments were completely spurious.

1. You ignore other models in the firing unit, not the model itself.
2. A vehicle is free to pivot in place when it moves, not when it is firing.

Aside from that, like sirisaacnuton wrote, it's hard to tell what the line of sight situation was at the time without eyeballing, string, laser pointers, etc. There might have been line of sight to part of your suit but that would have given you a cover save against the side sponsons.

Unless he's gotten creative with extending the sponsons' position out on the tank, they had no shot. As a longtime Predator user, I can say this with certainty. He should have just shot the suit with another unit (and if he didn't have a unit in position, more fool he) and used the Predator's firepower on something else.

Clearly the diagam in the book gave you the right of the situation. Problem is its very subjective in a reall game scenario.

I had an instance that was pretty funny with the "sight down the barrel" way of determining a vehicles LOS. A Basilisk firing direct can pretty much only target flyers or 9" tall models due to the mount being at the base of the chasis and the barrel only pivoting down to about a 30 degree angle. Of course we had to fudge the rules a bit to allow his Basislsk to fire but its still silly.

If your opponent was yelling "like a hysterical bitch" I would suggest avoiding playing with him in the future. Dude needs to grow up.

Nurglitch wrote:If your opponent was yelling "like a hysterical bitch" I would suggest avoiding playing with him in the future. Dude needs to grow up.

Unfortunately he's also a real-life colleague (28ish years old) so I'm sort of stuck. Just on the WH40K table he turns into a silly kid.

The other grand incident that game was when his command squad was wiped out. He hopped his commander into a rhino to make a b-line towards the objective. My D-Fish was in position right behind, and the burst guns popped the rhino from behind. Vehicle destroyed.

Problem is that we were turning the models upside-down to represent the destroyed result.

He put his commander back on the board, and then turned the rhino around and flipped it upside down so the base of his commander was practically wedged under the front of the flipped rhino, and then declared LOS was completely blocked and his model was in area terrain (he was fearing pathfinder and sniper drone cross-fire in nearby ruins).

It took the entire shop (6 other players at other tables) to convince him that he can't do that after 20 minutes of "discussion". My disembarked FW's then wasted him with rapid fire (3 failed armor saves on TEQ armor, beautiful).

Its just obnoxious, but I will end up playing him again in the future. He's lost badly with his SM's against my Tau 4 times now in 2000 point games (and 2 extremely marginal losses in 1000 point games), so we have a moratorium until he paints up his 'Nids...in which I'm sure the BS will start all over.

Hmm... well if he's forced to dissembark and you didn't explode the vehicle, he is free to place his model anywhere within 2" of the hull. Most people would place them out of LOS. I don't see this as such a bitch move and is definitely legal. Maybe I'm missing something?

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Hmm... well if he's forced to dissembark and you didn't explode the vehicle, he is free to place his model anywhere within 2" of the hull. Most people would place them out of LOS. I don't see this as such a bitch move and is definitely legal. Maybe I'm missing something?

First, you must exit the vehicle via valid exit point on a wrecked result (normal "disembark" rules). The "emergency rules" for 2" anywhere are only if the exits are blocked by enemies or impassable terrain...no more Pihranha feeding frenzy :(

Second, we were flipping vehicles upside down for convenience. He placed the model over the base-stand of his terminator, so his model was buried under the rhino carcass up to his ankles, then declared that he was forever out of LOS to everyone and was in area cover to boot.

It goes with his other basic trick of moving his models and saying "no matter where you move next turn, everything is out of LOS." And then next turn when you do get a clear shot because you didn't quite move where he expected, he goes apeshit and starts nudging his models around. I realize the dude has issues...just venting frustrations.

With reguard to the predator vs crisis suit situation. I set up an old school predator in front of my crisis suit and although its close, I'd say you can fire at the crisis suit with all sponsons. With the newer predators, I can't see the sponsons getting a shot off against the base of the model, but if you had any arms in the way... its all fair game.

The new rhino's are good at blocking line of sight... provided they were wrecked and not exploded. I blew up (wrecked) a command squad rhino in a game today, and I swear I could not trace line of sight to the command squad on the other side. However if your friend was raising the height of the rhino with his captains base, he really needs to evaluate why he's playing this game.

the guys sounds like a Dumbarse if i where you i would just make sure there are other people around when you play him just to prove him wrong when something else comes up that he is crying about.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Clearly the diagam in the book gave you the right of the situation. Problem is its very subjective in a reall game scenario.

I had an instance that was pretty funny with the "sight down the barrel" way of determining a vehicles LOS. A Basilisk firing direct can pretty much only target flyers or 9" tall models due to the mount being at the base of the chasis and the barrel only pivoting down to about a 30 degree angle. Of course we had to fudge the rules a bit to allow his Basislsk to fire but its still silly.

The rules allow you to treat all weapons as having a 45 degree vertical arc of fire, so your Basilisk should have no problems firing directly.

yeah your opponet doesnt have a leg to stand on the book is overseedingly clear about the arch of fire on the sponsons. your opponet should have just pivoted and then use the 1 sponson and the turret on top to shoot the suit. sure its not all the weapons but its good enough and no arguing about rules for the los.

You're not his momma. You don't have to baby-sit this smacktard.
next time he wants to play, politely decline. If he asks why, tell him.
Tell him that you haven't enjoyed playing against him and that you'd prefer a fun game.
If he brings it into the work place, then screw 'im. Unless he's in a "superior" position to you, if shouldn't affect you.

Life's to short to game against A-holes.


Eric