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After several games I find my Khorne themed CSM force is just not getting the job done. Time for some surgery.

My current 1850 force has 2 vindicators but I find they miss too often and die too easily. The 3 squads of Bezerkers in rhinos get stopped and gunned down or assault and then get gunned down. Lack of troops to hold objectives also get me in trouble. However the tank-hunting bikes and chosen do well for me.

Current force:
HQ
Chaos Lord
Mark of Khorne Pair of Lighting Claws
130

ELITES
6 Chosen
Icon of Khorne Aspiring Champion Lightning Claw 3 Melta
203

TROOPS
10 Khorne Bezerkers
Champion Champ - Power Weapon 2 Plasma Pistols
270
Rhino Extra Armor
50

9 Khorne Bezerkers
Champion Champ - Power Weapon 2 Plasma Pistols
249
Rhino Extra Armor
50

9 Khorne Bezerkers
Champion Champ - Power Weapon 2 Plasma Pistols
249
Rhino Extra Armor
50

FAST ATTACK
3 Bikes
2 Melta Gun
119

HEAVY SUPPORT
8 Havocs
4 Heavy Bolters
180

Chaos Vindicator
Possessed Combi Bolter
150

Chaos Vindicator
Possessed Combi Bolter
150

Proposed replacements - take out the 2 vindiators and trim squads to move in 4 termis (meltas) and 3 more bikes (meltas) along with a squad of demons to back up the teams that make it into combat or hold objectives. I could also cut the Khorne Icons from the termis and chosen, and fit in 2 squads of 5 demons each for more flexibility. I also have a LOT of meltas now, maybe the second bike team should get flamers?


HQ
Chaos Lord
Mark of Khorne Pair of Lighting Claws
130

ELITES
4 Terminators
Icon of Khorne 2 Combi-metla Power Fist
170
6 Chosen
Icon of Khorne Aspiring Champion Lightning Claw 3 Melta Infiltrate

TROOPS
8 Khorne Bezerkers
Champion Champ - Power Weapon 2 Plasma Pistols
228
Rhino
Extra Armor
50

8 Khorne Bezerkers
Champion Champ - Power Weapon 2 Plasma Pistols
228
Rhino
Extra Armor
50

9 Khorne Bezerkers
Champion Champ - Power Weapon 2 Plasma Pistols
249
Rhino
Extra Armor
50

8 Demons
104

FAST ATTACK
3 Bikes
2 Melta Gun
119
3 Bikes
2 Melta Gun
119

HEAVY SUPPORT
6Havocs
4 Heavy Bolters
150

If you're having trouble getting your kzerkers into CC, I heard using a Land Raider for them makes them unstoppable. It has the Assault Vehicle rule, so I guess this would help them. However, Land Raiders are also good at costing a lot of points.

Second list is better, but the extra armour does nothing for me and i think you can spend your poinrs somewhere else on better things

Thanks for the feedback.

A land raider is possible but as you said pricey and doesn't really address the key problem of keeping my BLOOD!zerkers alive after combat. Between rhinos and running they usually make it by turn 2 or 3 but then get gunned down. Hence the daemonic reinforcements.

Extra armor has saved my bacon more than once, that stays. It basically means I don't care about rolling a 1, 2, or 3 on the vehicle damage chart. Rhinos are not there for shooting, they are there to move and extra armor helps keep them in motion.

my 2c.

You find the Vindicators are useless just because they miss too often?

I do not think you want flamers, just because Berzerkers get lots of attacks.

If you like Extra Armour you like it.

Lose Plasma Pistols and you can take more Blood!zerkers.

I like the Meltagun bikes and the Heavy Bolter Havocs.

How do your bezerkers, sorry BLOOD!zerkers die? Do they end up always winning combat on your turn, then proceed to get atomized?

In order to keep your Bezerkers, alive, try charging with only some of the models, so that they don't wipe out the enemy on your turn, leaving them to mop up on your opponents' turn. It's an old tactic, but it still works.

The land raider can then act as a shield for the 'Zerkers. Again, old, but effective.

I should point out I have a bit of a limited experience with them. Lost vs Dark Eldar but that was my first 'zerker game and my first 5th edition game. Lost vs Templars because I didn't have enough troops to hold objectives. Lost to tau due to being shot up.

Tacobake wrote:

You find the Vindicators are useless just because they miss too often?

Yup or the target makes a cover save (big problem against tanks where it come down to one roll) or they're not in range.

Lose Plasma Pistols and you can take more Blood!zerkers.

Tough call. I've used them from inside tanks a few times to pop targets or before a charge. But many times I don't want to use them since they might deprive me of charging targets. And of course I've lost 'zerkers due to overheats. I'll drop them from one squad and see how that goes.

I like the Meltagun bikes and the Heavy Bolter Havocs.

I do love my heavy bolters. 12 dice of DEATH. That's a squad I might double up on.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I should point out I have a bit of a limited experience with them. Lost vs Dark Eldar but that was my first 'zerker game and my first 5th edition game. Lost vs Templars because I didn't have enough troops to hold objectives. Lost to tau due to being shot up.

Tacobake wrote:

You find the Vindicators are useless just because they miss too often?

Yup or the target makes a cover save (big problem against tanks where it come down to one roll) or they're not in range.

I am looking at one Vindi, one Pred and the Rhinos. The Pred is dedicated anti-tank (itself in cover) and the one Vindi should hopefully have a couple good targets it can shoot at. I am also looking at a Defiler as well but it has range. Note I have not tried it yet.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Tacobake wrote:Lose Plasma Pistols and you can take more Blood!zerkers.

Tough call. I've used them from inside tanks a few times to pop targets or before a charge. But many times I don't want to use them since they might deprive me of charging targets. And of course I've lost 'zerkers due to overheats. I'll drop them from one squad and see how that goes.

They are just not worth 15 pts each imo.

Tacobake wrote:

I like the Meltagun bikes and the Heavy Bolter Havocs.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I do love my heavy bolters. 12 dice of DEATH. That's a squad I might double up on.

BLOOD! FOR THE BLOOD! GOD!

Probably almost as good for anti-infantry as the Vindicators, especially against 4+ or worse. You could also consider Missile Launchers maybe.

It is true they are useful when you are outside of charge range (the pistols).

But can't you use the pistols and then charge?

Sorry, I meant BLOOD!zerkers.

You have to shoot them say two times to be useful since they only get one shot for 15pts. Doesn't always happen.

While the terminators are cool, I'm not sure if they add anything new to the army. Also, they don't score.

I think you're better off adding more units of bezerkers in rhinos. Remember the Rhinos can be used to block enemy LOS to minimize return fire.

I find the extra armor and plasma pistols to be largely ineffective. I think the points are better spent on more bodies.

Couple of units of tank hunting bikes, couple of tank hunting flying deamon princes, and rest could go into berzerkers imo.

What about making the second bike squad plasma bikers? Any thoughts?

Good for light tanks and the side armor of most heavy tanks, good against power armor and twice the shots or twice the range of meltas.

As for more bodies, thats what the demons bring to it. Best of all they don't need rhinos to get to their targets.

maybe and sure. You are the one trying it out. 4 Plasma shots is good against AV11 and OK against AV12. And they have range on the bikes.