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I know I'm just being reluctant to believe it but an IG opponent I was playing insists that Heavy Bolter squads can remove a single 'wound' from each of his bases then remove the gunner himself killing the Heavy Bolter 'team'. I know this is probably how it works. He says they aren't actually one model although they share a base. They are actually 2 different models on the same base that can take wounds independently from one another so I have to kill 3 useless Guradsmen before I can take out the gunner in any of his 3 man squads.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180152_Imperial_Guard_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

Halfway down the second column on page 2 should answer your question.

He had it right.

It's a squad of 6x1 wound models, and it makes sense to kill the ones without heavy weapons first.

But...

Are they considered the same for game purposes. IOW, lets say I have 2 HB teams, and 1 one with an autocannon.

Now they take 12 boltgun wounds, 2 each.

Is that one group of 6 guardsmen?
4 HBs and 2 ACs
2 HB gunners, 2 HB loaders, 1 AC gunner, 1 AC loader
2 HB gunners, 1 AC loader, 3 loaders

Some other combo I am not thinking of?

coredump wrote:But...

Are they considered the same for game purposes. IOW, lets say I have 2 HB teams, and 1 one with an autocannon.

Now they take 12 boltgun wounds, 2 each.

Is that one group of 6 guardsmen?
4 HBs and 2 ACs
2 HB gunners, 2 HB loaders, 1 AC gunner, 1 AC loader
2 HB gunners, 1 AC loader, 3 loaders

Some other combo I am not thinking of?

For wound allocation I'd treat it as:

3 Lasgunners (loaders)
1 AutoCannon
2 Heavy Bolter

You'd assign wounds based on these three groups. Let's assume that after all saves you've lost the autocannon guy, 1 heavy bolter, and 2 lasgunners. You now have two guys left, 1 HB and 1 lasgunner. Since the loaders can take over the gun the remaining lasgunner can take the place of either the HB guy or the AC guy and you'll be left with 1HB and 1AC.

The only variation I can see on this is if you consider the loaders to be differentiated by weapon as well in which case the three lasgunners would be split into a group of 2 and a group of 1. Since their equipment though is identical, I'd say they are one group, so in essence as long as you don't lose all three, then you can choose which loader remains to take over a specific weapon.

What's the end result then? You almost don't have to allocate the wounds. The only way you wouldn't end up with whatever you wanted left is if you lost the AC and all three loaders. In that scenario you'd only have HB's left. In a squad with all identical heavies, there is no reason to allocate at all, since as long as you have at least three guys left you will have all the heavies.

Dan

Edit: Correction--If you have an odd number of wounds (assuming you get saves of some kind) you would want to allocate and put the odd number on the loader group. Then you might end up loosing one less guy than if you rolled 7 saves on the squad as a whole.

e.g. 7 saves taken 3 on the HW and 4 on the lasgunners failing all 4 LG saves and 2 HW saves = 1 HW remaining. Rolling all 7 and failing 6 = no one left. A small difference, but it might matter.

I've been questioning a lot of Heavy Weapon teams rules lately, and this is answer i got from Yakface:

Q:
3) An enemy throws a pie-plate on the guardsmen (6 + Melta + Mortar + Sg), hitting all of them. How do I allocate wounds?
Should it be simply: 6/6 guardsmen, 1/1 Special Carrier, 2/Mortar Crew, 1/Sg ? evenly distributed between all models of different armament?

A:
Correct. You have six models with a lasgun, one model with a melta (and lasgun), a sergeant (assuming he's equipped differently) and then two models with a lasgun and one heavy weapon.


Basically, both the guardsmen on the heavy weapons team are equipped the same. There is no indication in the codex itself that the lasgun is replaced when the team is equipped when you are given a heavy weapon, but both members are now armed with a heavy weapon. So in fact, in a team of 2 HB 1 AC, you have: 4 guardsmen equipped with lasguns and heavy bolters, and 2 guardsmen equipped with lasguns and an autocannon. (except, obviously, its one heavy between two men)

This does mean that you must BOTH members of the team before the gun is disabled.
Imagine it as for each team, the squad is given the gun, and two members of the team are trained in how to use it.

The IG player in my group has custom bases for his HW teams where the models can be individually removed. But you may choose to remove either model and the gun may still fire.

Trasvi wrote: There is no indication in the codex itself that the lasgun is replaced when the team is equipped when you are given a heavy weapon, but both members are now armed with a heavy weapon.

Except for this unofficial FAQ from the UK White Dwarf says otherwise.

Ghaz wrote:

Trasvi wrote: There is no indication in the codex itself that the lasgun is replaced when the team is equipped when you are given a heavy weapon, but both members are now armed with a heavy weapon.

Except for this unofficial FAQ from the UK White Dwarf says otherwise.

Whilst i don't disagree with that FAQ, its a damn obscure place to find an answer and the vast majority of people wouldn't find that. If its an official ruling, it should be somewhere official. If its not official, then its not going to sway a lot of people.
RAW in the codex say that the guardsmen are armed with a heavy weapon between them. As opposed to the rules for Special Weapons squad which specifically state that their lasgun is replaced with a special weapon.

Regardless of that, if all models in the team are wounded, both members of the heavy weapons team are treated as equipped identically, and must be assigned wounds.

RAW in the codex say that the guardsmen are armed with a heavy weapon between them. As opposed to the rules for Special Weapons squad which specifically state that their lasgun is replaced with a special weapon.

Regardless of that, if all models in the team are wounded, both members of the heavy weapons team are treated as equipped identically, and must be assigned wounds.

Agreed. A heavy weapons squad with 3 Lascannons would be treated as just 6 Guardsmen armed equally, by my reading.

In other words, each heavy weapons team consists of two Guardsmen, each armed with a Lasgun. The team as a whole is bought a heavy weapon, rather than any individual model. Therefore, you'd have to kill all three 'loaders' before the guns themselves start to be removed.

However the way we play is slightly different - it stops the HW team from being a 4-wound model.
Each HW team is assigned a weapon. Another squad member cannot pick up a fallen comrade's weapon. Thus a loader from team 1 cannot start manning team 3's gun if both members of team 3 die.

So if the squad of 6/3 LC's i suffers 4 wounds, we allocate 2 teams one wound and the third team 2 wounds. if the third team fails both its saves and the other two teams pass theirs, the third team is removed.

If you suffer only 3 wounds then it would be perfectly acceptable to assign wounds to the loaders. You could also maybe assign 2 wounds to one team and one wound to another team if you wanted, though that would be risky. There is also no directive to remove whole weapons teams first, so after one loader dies from team 1 you can allocate wounds from later shooting to teams 2/3.

Trasvi wrote:Whilst i don't disagree with that FAQ, its a damn obscure place to find an answer and the vast majority of people wouldn't find that. If its an official ruling, it should be somewhere official. If its not official, then its not going to sway a lot of people.
RAW in the codex say that the guardsmen are armed with a heavy weapon between them. As opposed to the rules for Special Weapons squad which specifically state that their lasgun is replaced with a special weapon.

First of all the RAW does not say that they 'share' a weapon, just that the 'heavy weapon crew' has the heavy weapon. So a single model in the 'heavy weapon crew' could have the weapon and it's still RAW. Secondly, the wording of Special weapon squads is inconsequential. We're not talking about Special Weapon squads. The FAQs ruling is baseed on RAW just as muh as yours is.