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Hello,

The question is simple but tricky : do you consider that a Veteran Superior sister of a Celestian squad is a celestian in all respect or not ?

In fact, the "Holy Hatred" reads : (page 29)

[...]Celestians hit on a 3+ regardless of respective WS values. [...]

From a strict RAW the Veteran Superior Sister is a (drumroll) "Veteran Superior Sister" as opposed to being a Celestian...It may sounds silly but it has a lot of implication from a strategical viewpoint so i'd rather prefer to be safe than sorry on this...

Maybe, i am a bit too exclusive in my understanding of the wording, i would like the insight of native english speakers about it...

Best regards,
Wilme

A veteran sister superior of Celestians is a subset of Celestians.

Careful with that interpretation. That can lead to some ugly things when applied to other codex cases. In a new codex, it would read either "all models in a Celestian Squad" or "the Celestian Squad". It might also name the VSS a Celestian VSS to make her count. I would agree that by RAW she would not get that rule. RAI probably would give it to her. Decide how you want to play and the answer is given.

Homer

So does it also means that you can put the Sacred Standard on the Veteran Superior sister in a celestial retinue then ?

Codex WH page 29 wrote:One Celestial in the retinue may be nominated as a Banner Bearer and may purchase a banner from the armoury

Since the VSS is a Celestian and it has no special weapon (as defined page 29 = flamer / meltagun / storm bolter), it should be able to carry the Banner then, right ?

@ Homer : i play, and sometime organize, tournaments in my country (France). So most often than not we rely on RAW...but we try not to do it against common sense :p

Thanks in advance,
Wilme

Banners aren't weapons. Strangely, they don't seem to take up hands.

Upgrade members of a unit are still always counted as one of the unit type - unless specifically mentioned otherwise.

A similar question has been faq'd regarding the Dark Angel Veterans and the Veteran Sgt. He is, in fact, a subset of the squad.

scuddman wrote:A similar question has been faq'd regarding the Dark Angel Veterans and the Veteran Sgt. He is, in fact, a subset of the squad.

Of course he is... it's right in his dang name! This precedent does not really apply to the VSS in a Celestian squad, since she is not listed as a Celestian VSS. Remember, I'm talking about RAW here. It is my belief that RAI would lead you to count her in the Celestian ability in CC.

Homer

Well, take a look at the Space Marine apothecary, which has only the name "apothecary"; the word "Veteran" does not appear in his name - I understand that people are of the opinion that the apothecary is therefore not a veteran, and cannot get the upgrades allowed for veterans.

Look at a couple of other rules for the Celestian squad.

Transport vehicle: The Celestians may be mounted in a Rhino ....

Adepta Sororitas. Celestians are subect to the special rules listed on page 18.

So if we argue that the sister superior is not a Celestian, then I guess she can't go in a transport, because the rules only say that Celestians may be mounted in a transport vehicle; and I guess she doesn't have the Adepta Sororitas rule, because it only says that Celestians have the AS rule.

Given the implausibility of the above, I think it's fair to say that the sister superior of a Celestian unit is, in fact, a Celestian herself.

Your arguement about the apothicary doesn't hold any baearing on this case. No one argues that the apothicary is not a member of the Command Squad. Simply that he is not a Veteran. The Celestian Sister Superior is a member of the Celestian squad and benifits from their Holy Hatred rule, but she is not a celestian available to be upgraded to a standard bearer.

Zacarius wrote:Your arguement about the apothicary doesn't hold any baearing on this case. No one argues that the apothicary is not a member of the Command Squad. Simply that he is not a Veteran. The Celestian Sister Superior is a member of the Celestian squad and benifits from their Holy Hatred rule, but she is not a celestian available to be upgraded to a standard bearer.

If i may, i don't think that you are basing your judgment on the wording of the rule in the above-mentionned comment as, according to the Canonesse's retinue chapter, if the Sister superior is indeed considered as a Celestian, then nothing written prevents her from also being the standard bearer of the squad...

Best regards,
Wilme

I think I see the light... in the rule for Holy Hatred and transports "Celestians" means the squad, whereas in regards to the Standard "Celestian" means one of the models with the statline "Celestian". That is certainly clear!

Homer

The original question was whether a VSS is a Celestian for all purposes, and that answer appears to be no (she can't take the banner, for example). However, it sounds like people are in agreement that she does get holy hatred, so she is a celestian for some purposes.

The transport issue is a non-issue - there is no rule that says that only celestians may get in a Rhino, and the new rulebook allows attached characters to be in the Rhino, so even if she was not a celestian she would still get to ride along.