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Ok, so I've seen a whine-fest with the release of each new codex and army book while lurking around various tabletop gaming forums all complaining about how army X is too powerful to defeat or too weak to compete. So, in the spirit of sarcasm I decided to start one for the new space marine codex. But as a Space Marine player, I really can't complain too much. Sure, there's some things I don't like, but it's like fussing about winning a 200 million dollar jackpot and the government taxing me for 10% of it..
We gain a lot of flexibility in some areas but lose a whee bit in other areas.
We've got cheaper armor almost across the board. We've got awesome new specialist units like sternguard and vanguard. We've got special characters who boost our entire army's effectiveness at a point cost comparable to HQ choices tricked out with similar but less effective equipment. We also got a new land raider configuration as well as one for our land speeders and our dreadnoughts. We've also gained the combat squads ability.
And the cost of all this? A measure of inflexibility in HQ and vet sergeant weapon and equipment choices. We've been given mandatory Vet. Sgts with each squad. We're saddled with mroe expensive vehicle upgrades. We've lost our trait system. We've lost our heavy weapons in tactical squads unless we field 10 men.

So.. where's the biased demands for more goodies or the frustrated outcries that we've got it too good and we don't deserve half of what we have?

Personally I've said it before. At a glance marines may look unstoppable. However its really not that bad.

Honestly, the marines have alot of shiny toys but armies built around lots of tactical squads are some of the most dangerous.

I think the most important thing the new codex brings is the ability to be more distinctive and characterful. Until the rumors of this codex, marines were largely perceived as bland. Compared to other armies, no marine units really had any special rules, they were distinctive by the fact "they have jump packs" while "they have FOUR heavy weapons."

Another thing that makes the new codex good is that with all the new options I think there is more strategy that can go into the play of a marine army, less auto pilot play. This will move it away from being a starter army for "noobs," and make the core Marine book as interesting, if not more so, to play than the other notorious marine codices.

Eh, it's fine. The core army of SM Troops works fine, as long as you build it the way GW wants you to: multiple 10-man Tactical Squads with Transports. If that isn't your cup of tea, you'll pay a lot more for not so much goodies.

IMO, the BA and DA Codices are more flexible, as you can build usable 5-man squads.

Thats true, I do go with ten man squads, so that didn't affect me.

Actually, I'm thinking about maxing out on attack bike squadrons.. The only thing keeping me from doing so is the sweetness of vanguard vets.. I'm going to playtest a squad of them, but they just look too expensive to be truly worth committing to my list permenantly.. I mean, 5 guys with jump packs, 1 relic blade, 1 storm shield and 1 power fist tips the scale at 230 pts.. That's a lot for 5 guys who'll become the world's largest target after they deep strike in and massacre a unit they're first turn on the board. Attack bikes have always been one of my favorite units and now both the HB and MM varieties have gotten cheaper. I might do that, take a cheap master (I know, an oxymoron) and as many 10-man tac squads with as many TL-LC Razorbacks as I can get a hold of.. And maybe a Predator Destructor with HBs and SB for 95 pts to help mulch infantry and draw low AP shots away from my power armor.

I really liked the chapter trait system. It added a whole lot of character to a army that was, as you said, overwhelmingly vanilla.

Though i realize that the army has gotten a lot better, and the special characters are crazy good. I think that it has reduced the amount of viable armies by a considerable amount. Sure you have amazingly cool veteran units. But even so, the core armies will stay centered around drop pods, outflanking razorbacks, and a few other armies.

What's wrong with vanilla? It is my favorite flavor for cake, ice cream, and shakes. I don't know why people think that vanilla is a "bland" color.... maybe because it's white and doesn't really kick. Vanilla is a flavor, but if you have a lot of it, then it gets sort of 'blech,' but that can be said of anything. There was a time when my local shop was populated by Chaos armies, which was pretty bland to me.

For me personally I just cannot figure out what to do with marines. It seems like 60 marines just could not do that much damage. What do they do against other power armies? I just dont know. I think I will stick to my orks.

Here's my list of suggestions:

1. Amalgamate the Captain/Chapter Master list entries, as a Chapter Master is basically a Captain with the Orbital Bombardment ability and Honour Guard instead of a Command Squad. If Chapter Master was an upgrade, then that would be better. Have a basic Lieutenant version for people that don't want to over-do the HQ, with Veteran stats.

2. Amalgamate the Dreadnought entries. Have Venerable as an upgrade and have Ironclad as an upgrade. Allow up to three of them to be purchased for a single slot, like an IG platoon.

3. Amalgamate the Veterans entries distinguishing between mixed squads, and dedicated Vanguard/Sternguard squads.

4. Amalgamate the Terminator entries, and substitute something like the Blood Angel's entry for Terminator squads (keeping the possibility of 6-10 man squads).

5. Amalgamate the Land Raider entries to a single entries, again as a set of upgrades.

6. Allow members of Command Squads to upgrade to minor, 'non-heroic', Chaplains, Techmarines, and Librarians.

7. Redefine/re-equip Techmarines to more supportive stuff. The Fortify rule is good, but more like that. They've shown that a Medic giving Feel No Pain can be done well. I think something like allowing vehicles within 6" to ignore Shaken results is a good idea.

@Nurglitch: That isn't bad per se, but you're trying to re-homogenize GW's de-homogenized army list.

1. GW specifically wants to differentiate the 1 Chapter Master compared to the 10 Captains. GW also wants non-Scoring SM HQ costs to be somewhat punitive (100-pt minimum), so a stripped-down Captain is as cheap as it gets, but you can call him "Lieutenant" if you like. IMO, this is good, as it forces SM into sinking at least 100 pts into a non-Scoring model.

2. As the statlines, it can't be the same unit entry. And definitely not as a squadron - Dreads are still good, despite the remote possibility of a "magic BB" taking one out on the first shot. Allowing 18 (9, +9 from MotF) of them would be grossly unFluffy and unbalanced in the extreme.

3. I like the split between shooty and fighty Veterans. They're distinctive.

4. Same with the Terminator split. Rules-wise, they're much cleaner this way. The intent of the Codex Astartes is much clearer.

5. This would be possible if the Transport characteristics didn't vary.

6. See above re: 1.

7. A Techmarine is more than a Medic, and he isn't a Orky Force Field.

I like the extra differentiation. It's what makes things distinct. And that's better.

Adding to what JohnHwangDD was saying, I think the fine distinction between all the units is to give a large number of options to make up for the loss of trait system and the options that presented.

I think the other main reason for these similar units being split up is just because of the book keeping, where it would get too complicated to write out all the, "if," "and," "or," "buts" restrictions and trade offs. You'd probably come close to taking up the same amount of space as writing them as separate options.

i'm upset abot the new codex because i can't have my chaplin to get 6 attacks on the charge which i can re-roll at str 5, o and there power weapon attacks. now i only get a measly 4 attacks on the charge that are strength 4. thats my only complaint about the codex to be honest.

On the lottery note, taxes should only get involved if you try to give the money to someone else. Unless you live in one of those horrible little American states.
Then it's more like >30%, not 10%

Bionics and purity seals are no more. Does anyone miss them? My last SM list had them as point-placeholders - trust me, my Purgura Captain is encrusted purity seals. Other than that, I don't miss them at all. The new list usually ends up with nice flat points total.

Amalgamation of dreads would work, possibly not so easy for LRs. Chaplains and Librarians are now More Expensive than Ever Before, and they don't really have a place in the traditional command squad with the new shooting rules. Don't even get me started on how much of an advantage FnP is.

SM have a lot of Fast Attack and Heavy Support options, and their Elites list never gets any smaller, but they are Space Marines. Simplifying the list makes for easier understanding, but it doesn't help people to realise that there will be seperate models available - we all know what GW wants. One of my dreads already had a Multi-melta and extra armour from 4th ed, so he's been my Ironclad. Still can't win with them though; 5th nerfed my list up the bum.

Bingo: I was a Furious Charge junkie as well, but I didn't know your Chaplain could get it, even if his squad did. 3 basic + 1 for additional CCW, + 1 for charge; I presume you got the last from Terminator Honours?

your bang on

if he had a command squad he could get it

Thank goodness Purity Seals have gone away. With Purity Seals molded onto half of the legs, it's hard not to have them on models. And WYSIWYG only makes it more obnoxious.

[VENT]Personally I think the new codex is a flop. There are heaps of inconsistencies and strange rules which prevent me from playing the way I like. I just think they changed it to make money and nothing else. I truly believe that apart from cheaper armour and special characters, they did bugger all to make the army better. All my squads are stuffed and I have a lot of work to do to get the army back to where it was. So yes I am pretty dissapointed, I think I have a LESS flexible army and cannot understand logic behind the changes.
[/VENT]


Perhaps some of you can clarify something for me, maybe I have missed something:


--> An HQ squad cannot be expanded beyond 5 men?
--> The only way your honour guard can get any anti tank is by giving the champion a thunder hammer which means he will strike last against independant characters (which he must always challenge)? - Inconsistent because an HQ squad can get meltabombs but Honour guard cant???
--> Chapter master upgrade to terminator armour is way overpriced (he already has a 4+ invulnerable)
--> Dedicated transports: WHEN will they realise I dont want to put my HQ in a crappy rhino? Give me LR dedicated transport!!!
--> No locator beacon for scouts on foot? Why only scout bikes?
--> Scouts are WS & BS 3 but they are no cheaper than before?
--> Sternguard & Vanguard are OK but we get nothing for free here - we have to pay through the nose for them and even though they are the best troops in the chapter they cant hold an objective...... yeah
--> Characters are better but once again they make us pay a very high price for them, I dont see why they needed to make things LESS flexible???
--> They filled it up with so much fluff that they couldnt be bothered putting in descriptions of what wargear actually DOES. I am constantly seeing "Refer to page 52" or "Refer to the rulebook" GAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!

Im sure I will come across many more inconsistencies and annoying things but this is a start.

@Aether: You didn't miss anything. That's why I'm C: BA, not C: SM. That stuff is just too expensive for regular usage.

Oh, and Dreadnoughts should be able to equip Cyclone/Typhoon Missile Launchers. Perhaps call them Zephyr Missile Launchers...

Also, Storm Bolters should be Heavy 3.

@Nurglitch: At that rate, perhaps the Predator can be adapted to carry a Vulcan Mega-Bolter? Yes?

Aether,

Honour Guard are honourable combatants. Tanks are not. They have an understanding; Honour Guard stay away from them because they're honourable, and tanks do whatever they want because they're oafish gits.
Basically they've been built as anti-personnel combat machines, and if that isn't what you want, lead a different unit. For example...

You Terminator captain can join a unit of Termies with a DEDICATED LR transport. Why would you put non-terminators in a land raider? These aren't Berserkers with the old Chainaxes rule or anything. You're still paying the points for the Land Raider either way; how much HS do you want to spam?

Scouts got hit with the nerf stick bad though.

The Codex design problems with referencing, etc. has been present since the new Cod Eldar in 06. It was probably to avoid the old chestnut of slightly differing rule desscriptions within the same book... but yeah, it's a pain.

Congratulations for finding something to complain about on the Chapter Master's invulnerable save.

Finally, FnP is utterly brutal. No one should ever have had it IMO, but no one needed it like SM command squads. Heh. So they're smaller units? FEEL NO PAIN WIN!

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Aether,

Honour Guard are honourable combatants. Tanks are not. They have an understanding;

Ok, thats just fluff, so HQ squads are tankhunters by comparison to honour guard?

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

Why would you put non-terminators in a land raider?

I just played a 2000 point game with the HQ in the LR and they killed Marneus + Honour Guard + Lysander in 2 Turns.........

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

Congratulations for finding something to complain about on the Chapter Master's invulnerable save.

Thanks, Ill keep you updated with any more finds

Nurglitch wrote:Also, Storm Bolters should be Heavy 3.

Nah. Assault 2/Twin-Linked does the job just fine. Been playing that way for years, makes Stormbolters worth something.

BYE

Looking back through the older SM codex's I happen to think that this one is a damn good one. You have lots of options that when taken allow you to field SM armies drastically different in play style and composition to others. Thus getting rid of the "Vanilla Marines" aspect to a certain degree.

Scouts have been made more playable IMHO, I agree with the statement that the Ironclad and Venerable dreadnoughts should be upgrades rather than seperate enteries. And I do wish you can buy extra armour for dreadnoughts to bring it up to AV13, but ah well, we can dream.

Would have also liked to have had the ability to join Shrike to an Assualt Marine Squad as well. And had the command squad able to be a squad of 10 like the honour guard can

Other than that, I'm very happy with the codex as it stands

hellsguardian316 wrote:Looking back through the older SM codex's I happen to think that this one is a damn good one.

Yeah I'm gonna agree here. Aside from the Thunderfire Cannon, which is a real waste, I really love this Codex. I mean, there are things I don't like as I disagree with them in general (the structure of Heavy Weapons and squad sizes, but that's not native to this Codex alone), but the new Marine Codex is a great Codex.

BYE

JohnHwangDD:

No, that would stupid. Notice that the Dreadnought Missile Launcher is a multiple missile launcher like the Cyclone and the Typhoon. Making the Storm Bolter Heavy 3 would make it an LMG/SAW to the Heavy Bolter's HMG.

Well, the Typhoon is 2 mirrored pods, so should be twin-linked. And the Cyclone is also mirrored pods, which would also suggest twin-linked.

The Dread is a single pod, so Heavy 1 works better.
____

Oh yeah, leave the Heavy Stubber to the Guard, please.

Dreadnough Missile Pod should be Heavy 2 and go back to being a good weapon like it was in 2nd Ed.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Yeah I'm gonna agree here. Aside from the Thunderfire Cannon, which is a real waste, I really love this Codex.

I know that everyone says that the thunderfire is trash. But really, It's a good, if a little finicky piece of artillery. I've used 2 of them just recently to great effect. Complete disregard of the OP aside.

Here are the things that make this codex good.

The new elite units that are able to be used in very effective, and very cool combinations.
The huge upgrades to the Land speeders.
Scouts with Camo Cloaks.
Special characters that not only add huge benefits to army X, but now can be used in any army.
Combat squads that can act independently, like good space marines should.
Cost effective rhinos, and razorbacks.
Space marine bikers that actually have weapons.
Reduced costs for assault marines.

Here are the things that make the codex crap

No trait system, the one thing that gave really intriguing fluff, and flavor to an otherwise bland army fielding lots of the .
No heavy/special weapons in small squads.
Techmarines got nerfed... badly
No more unique options for vehicles, or sergeants, or HQ units. just what's on the page next to the entry.
HQ units are way more expensive, and give fewer bonus's on an army wide scale, meaning shrike, Lysander, Pedro, Calgar, Khan, Vulkan, and the rest are going to be seen in many, if not most armies, meaning "Oh! you have Lysander!" will turn into "oh... you have Lysander"

From an objective standpoint, I realize that the SM codex became much better.

From the standpoint of a Chapter trait junkie.... I'm en pissed