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New list i'm thinking of trying. Looking for any comments or advice. Consider the sorc interchangeable with a DP of the same point value.

Totals: 1500 pts, 36 infantry, 3 armor, 9 kill points, 3 scoring units.

HQ - 185

185 - Tzeentch Sorcerer: Wings, Warptime, Doombolt

Elites - 435

195 - Terminators x5: Power Fist, Heavy Flamer, Combi Plasma x4, Icon of Chaos Glory

240 - Landraider: Daemonic Possession

Troops - 730

265 - Marines x10: Champion, Power Fist, Icon of Chaos Glory, Plasma Gun x2, Rhino
265 - Marines x10: Champion, Power Fist, Icon of Chaos Glory, Plasma Gun x2, Rhino

200 - Noise Marines x8: Sonic Blaster x8

Heavy Support - 150

150 - Obliterator x2

Either take the wings off the Sorc and fit him into one of the squads, or take the Prince. Use Lash of submission, it's cheaper and works like a charm.

Drop the plasma, pick up either all melta or a melta flamer mix. 2 oblits and the Lascannons on the LR are not enough anti-tank. With the meltas, consider dropping the expensive Power Fists.

Termi's wont need the icon, drop it. If you plan to assault in mass, drop the icons from the troops, you should be killing the enemy, not taking moral tests. Icon of Glory is for units that you plan to leave unsupported.

Don't give all the Noise marines sonic blasters, leave some without to account for casualties. And give them a Rhino.

Take all Noise marines if possible.

I second that

Swapping the Sorcerer for a Daemon Prince is an idea, since the advantage of a Sorcerer is a greater range of psychic powers, Terminator Armour and a Steed of Chaos.

Something I'd suggest is ditching one Terminator in the squad, and using the points to enhance the Sorcerer:

Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer (220)
w/Mark of Tzeentch, Terminator Armour, Familiar, Warptime, Doombolt, Wind of Chaos, Combi-Melta

The Familiar gives him the option of either a Doombolt or a Winds of Chaos, while the Mark of Tzeentch lets him combine one of those powers with Warptime for the to hit and to wound re-rolls. Similarly the Warptime power lets him maximize his Melta shot, should he be confronted by heavy armour, and combines well with his Force Weapon.

I'd recommend keeping the Plasma since it's a rude awakening to anyone that tries to spam Plague Marines and Obliterators, and just plain handy against the plethora of Space Marines out there. Their range will be more useful against transports and light tanks, while your Land Raider and Obliterators can deal with heavy armour.

Also, keep the Icons, since they'll be handy for bringing down the Obliterators on target where they can best use their flamethrowers in case someone tries to spam you with Orks.

Either take the wings off the Sorc and fit him into one of the squads, or take the Prince. Use Lash of submission, it's cheaper and works like a charm.

Yes, lash princes are good. I'm surprised nobody has posted saying "Replace your entire list with double lash princes, plague marines in rhinos and oblits." So i appreciate that you don't know if i am a noob or not, but i am not taking lash in anything short of a tournament.

Drop the plasma, pick up either all melta or a melta flamer mix. 2 oblits and the Lascannons on the LR are not enough anti-tank. With the meltas, consider dropping the expensive Power Fists.

Yes the list is a bit low on anti tank, but i honestly do not understand your recommendation. Sure switching to meltas helps give me more anti tank, but then dropping the fists is just, well, a terrible idea? Fists on our champs are one of the best things in our army. They may cost a fair few points, but they can kill anything and stop the squad from getting wiped out by things like ICs, walkers, MCs, etc. And i'd take a fist for anti tank over a melta anyday. Sure both is the best anti tank option, but advising that i take meltas for more anti tank and then advising that i drop the fist which is the better anti tank just seems a bit contradictory, unless you purely meant it for the point savings. But in 90% of game the fist champ kills his points and that of the rest of the squad, so i doubt that.

Termi's wont need the icon, drop it. If you plan to assault in mass, drop the icons from the troops, you should be killing the enemy, not taking moral tests. Icon of Glory is for units that you plan to leave unsupported.

In a perfect world, i walk up to the enemy without taking a single casualty, assault them, win every assault, and table them by the end of turn 2. In reality, you take morale tests that you simply cannot afford to fail on such expensive units. Sure i should be killing the enemy, not taking morale tests. But what about if they are killing me and i don't want to instantly lose the game as soon as i lose an assault? Not taking Chaos Glory is probably the single worst piece of advice i've ever been given or seen anybody give on a warhammer board. It is easily our best icon and is amazing in how it saves us since we don't have stuff like ATSKNF.

Don't give all the Noise marines sonic blasters, leave some without to account for casualties. And give them a Rhino.

This is 5th edition with the new wound allocation. Body bags on noise marines were argueably worthless in 4th, and now that in 5th you usually need 1 body bag per special weapon it is completely worthless. Remember the point of noise marines is that they can move and shoot. Every guy without a sonic blaster is a waste since they arn't doing anything unless you are dieing, and even then they probably arn't doing anything due to wound allocation. Sonic blasters are cheap. Would i rather risk a cheap upgrade getting killed or would i want to take a body bag and waste 4x the points of the upgrade?

As for the rhino, why? I mean rhinos are great no matter what, but if they are in the rhino then they arn't shooting. Its not an assault squad.

Take all Noise marines if possible.

This is like saying "win every game if possible". Noise marines are great. All noise marine armies are just fine. But if i switched to all noise marines in this list my army would be tiny. And variety is great.

Soo, i do want to hear why nurglitch's advice is bad, but i'd also like a deeper explanation of your advice. I'm sure there are plenty of things about this game that i don't know yet and you might be very right, but from what i know it just seems pretty bad.

ignoring all the adcive people have given you so far (ill get round to that) your list ok adequate for casual games, but there is room for improvement.

your sorcerer is far too expensive for a model that isnt that scary. your paying 185pts for a model that still hits like a marine (although admittedly with rerolls). tzneetch sorcerers are the worst culprits, because they lure you in with the promise of 2 psychic powers a turn, then hit you with the 30pt cost of the mark. your equivalent demon prince has +2WS +2S +2T +1W +1A and costs the same points!!!!! i cant stress this enough. do you really want to pay 185pts for a sorcerer that will only kill a few infantry models or a demon prince that can kill everything.

your terminators are fine. i dont like taking terminators in anything less than 1750pts because i find they eat up too much points and cant justify it in their performance, but each to his own.

your CSM would be better off as plague marines for all the reasons im sure you have heard many times. if you dont want to have them, thats your loss. either way you should give them meltas, not only because you need more anti-tank, but because you want to be able to shoot and assault with that powerfist.

your noise marines are fine. i like mine to have my shooty NMs a blastmaster.

obliterators are good. more would be better. personally i would drop the terminators for a couple more, give the noise marines a champion with a powersword and a doomsiren (no blastmaster) and have them drive around in the landraider.

on to the advice from everyone else:

demon princes are good pretty much however you use them (except khorne). just because lash is considered the best in a tournament setting doesnt mean it invaldates the others. ive seem plenty of nurgle princes beat the snot out of lash princes while their player looked on in horror.

dont drop the powerfists, they give your squads some much needed punch, especially if there are running about in rhinos. meltas are a good idea though.

the terminators should have an icon because they will be making Ld tests (gone are the days of fearless terminators, now the veterens on 10,000 years of brutal combat run like little girls whenever someone says boo)

you may as well max out your SB if you can. these arent haoc or devastators that need ablative wounds. they are too expensive for that. noise marines are going to be vulnerable whatever you do, so you may as well work to their strengths.

as time goes on i become more and more certain that nurglitch doesnt play the same game that the rest of us do. his sorcerer is rediculously expensive. 220pts (the same as a landraider) for a model that will take a powerfist to the face and keel over. familiars arent worth it. having the extra power is nice, but not when it costs you 35pts. a demon prince with wings, is faster, harder to kill, better at killing stuff and costs less.

There are only two reasons to take a sorc over a D Prince- To hide him in a squad or to hide him in a rhino and shoot his spell from inside. If for some reason you want to take a Sorc for any other reason...Fine, what do I care? If you want to post that you are looking for advice on your army list and not say that you want to run a Lash Free list, then don't get all butt hurt when people suggest you use it. Who wouldn't suggest you use it? it works. Two lashes, I agree, is beardy, but one is just fine. You seem to want to take two spells, but a Sroc can only use one of them, a Prince can use both in the same turn, for less points, it's a no brainer.

You seem to want to build an assault list, you have no heavy weapons, you want to use warptime...but why then take Plasma? You can not charge the unit you shot it at. Why not take melta? It has a higher strength(Instant Deathing 2 wound squads like nobs) and can also burn the hell out of armor. Go ahead, stop your rhino in front of the enemy, jump out, shoot your plasma, then sit there and don't charge with that Power Fist.
Also, I never said Power Fists were a bad idea, they are in fact awesome, but I have been playing without them quite happily and don't miss them. 15pts for a champ, then 25 more for a Fist, rinse and repeat with multiple squads...it adds up quick. But I simply wrote to "consider dropping them"...just advice that you asked for.

The list you made is not just a bit low on anti tank, it is almost devoid of anti tank. 2 Oblits is not going to do anything. You need more Oblits or meltaguns. The Lascannons on your LR are going to be useless, why move 6" and shoot one of them when you should be moving 12" to drop off the termi's you are carrying. And the PFs are great at popping armor, but how are you going to get to it? People are going to drive away from your Fists, and you can't rush a rhino up to a vehicle and assault the enemy armor in the same turn. You can rhino rush a vehicle then jump out and fire both meltaguns at close range or shoot one melta out of the firing point.



I say drop the icons because you have nothing coming in from deepstrike and you don't seem to have any "sit back and shoot" units. If you want to DS the oblits, why take them? You are going to put your only real anti tank into reserve for 2-4 turns? If you rush your LR and rhino's(and your HQ) into combat together supporting eachother, you should have no problem wiping out whatever you charge (dice gods allowing). If you start having to take morale checks after that, it's prob time to loose the game anyway, not re-roll. But they're only 10pts, and not a big deal, if you feel safer with them, why not take them. remember, it's only advice that you asked for, not a mandate from the goverment on how you should play.

Without a rhino, how are your Noise marines going to keep up with the rest of your army that is all moving 12"? They're going to get shot to ribbons. A noise marine with a bolter is still worth his 20pts. There is nothing stupid about having sacrificial lambs in your squad of Noise Marines. Walking across the battlefield, they will take a few casualties before they are in range of anything juicy...I think it's wise to save a few points and accept the fact that some will die. Putting them in a rhino(all with blasters) lets them keep up with the rest of your army, lets all of them live to get there, and lets them jump out of it, and shoot together.

I must apologize as i did overreact a bit, but please understand that my overly harsh reply came from a place of being confused, nothing malicious. Thank you very much for responding and i hope we can continue the conversation.

There are only two reasons to take a sorc over a D Prince- To hide him in a squad or to hide him in a rhino and shoot his spell from inside. If for some reason you want to take a Sorc for any other reason...Fine, what do I care? If you want to post that you are looking for advice on your army list and not say that you want to run a Lash Free list, then don't get all butt hurt when people suggest you use it. Who wouldn't suggest you use it? it works. Two lashes, I agree, is beardy, but one is just fine. You seem to want to take two spells, but a Sroc can only use one of them, a Prince can use both in the same turn, for less points, it's a no brainer.

I do understand this about the sorc. The reason i put a sorc in the list in the first place was simply because i have a really nice converted sorc model, and my DP is just the base model and lacks wings so isn't WYSIWYG. Also a sorc with MoT can use two spells per turn (but only one shooting) and while a daemon prince can fire 2 weapons he can only make 1 psychic test unless he has MoT so he can only use 1. But yes MoT on a dp is cheaper.

You seem to want to build an assault list, you have no heavy weapons, you want to use warptime...but why then take Plasma? You can not charge the unit you shot it at. Why not take melta? It has a higher strength(Instant Deathing 2 wound squads like nobs) and can also burn the hell out of armor. Go ahead, stop your rhino in front of the enemy, jump out, shoot your plasma, then sit there and don't charge with that Power Fist.
Also, I never said Power Fists were a bad idea, they are in fact awesome, but I have been playing without them quite happily and don't miss them. 15pts for a champ, then 25 more for a Fist, rinse and repeat with multiple squads...it adds up quick. But I simply wrote to "consider dropping them"...just advice that you asked for.

I am not sure why you think this would be an assault list. Yes it has no heavy weapons, but i don't think any chaos lists except fluff iron warriors do. And warptime is great for shooting as well as cc. It doesn't have a single cc specialized unit except maybe the terminators, and even they are not in a specifically close combat setup. There are also plenty of ways to use marines other than rhino rushing them, and plasma lends to more defensive and tactical styles of play. You do make a good point about powerfists though, i need to try some lists without them.

The list you made is not just a bit low on anti tank, it is almost devoid of anti tank. 2 Oblits is not going to do anything. You need more Oblits or meltaguns. The Lascannons on your LR are going to be useless, why move 6" and shoot one of them when you should be moving 12" to drop off the termi's you are carrying. And the PFs are great at popping armor, but how are you going to get to it? People are going to drive away from your Fists, and you can't rush a rhino up to a vehicle and assault the enemy armor in the same turn. You can rhino rush a vehicle then jump out and fire both meltaguns at close range or shoot one melta out of the firing point.

All valid points. In the latest version of the list i have dropped the raider and added a unit of plague marines with meltas.

Without a rhino, how are your Noise marines going to keep up with the rest of your army that is all moving 12"? They're going to get shot to ribbons. A noise marine with a bolter is still worth his 20pts. There is nothing stupid about having sacrificial lambs in your squad of Noise Marines. Walking across the battlefield, they will take a few casualties before they are in range of anything juicy...I think it's wise to save a few points and accept the fact that some will die. Putting them in a rhino(all with blasters) lets them keep up with the rest of your army, lets all of them live to get there, and lets them jump out of it, and shoot together.

This would be true if games were played from the short edge but the long. But unless there is a really funky deployment and you end up in far opposite corners, or its dawn of war, you and your opponent will probably be only a bit over 24 inches away from each other at the start of any given game. They don't need to keep up with anything because they can probably start shooting immediatly since they can move and shoot. I can see putting them in a rhino simly because your enemies will probably be in transports in the first turn or two and they'll have nothing to shoot at, but that is different. And yes, sacrificial lambs are a bad idea unless i'm going into rapid fire range, which i shouldn't be doing with blaster marines. This is simply a matter of doing points efficiency math and there are plenty of threads out there that have it.

Personally i like the list, it have alot of punch in it for the type of list it is, it woulf fit rather well in the 5th edition way of gaming to.

and using a sorceror isnt always a bad thing neither, its something different from the usualy DP that are in vertually every Chaos army list. Good work