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Hey gents,

Playing in my second competitive tournament in several years on Saturday down in Austin. Went there this past weekend and went 1-1-1, which I consider ok for not having played a game of fantasy since the release of 6th edition. Modified the list slightly and would like feedback. Tournament field is mostly comprised of VCs and Daemons, with a smattering of HEs and other armies.

Thanks,
Mike K.

2250 Pts - Empire Roster - Unnamed

General of the Empire (1#, 195 Pts)
1 General of the Empire @ 195 Pts
General; Hand Weapon; Full Plate Armor; Shield
1 Sword of Sigismund @ [45] Pts
1 Laurels of Victory @ [55] Pts

Battle Wizard (1#, 150 Pts)
1 Battle Wizard @ 150 Pts
Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon
1 Dispel Scroll @ [25] Pts
1 Dispel Scroll @ [25] Pts

Battle Wizard (1#, 135 Pts)
1 Battle Wizard @ 135 Pts
Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon
1 Staff of Sorcery @ [35] Pts

State Troops (40#, 265 Pts)
24 Swordsmen @ 265 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield
1 Duellist @ [16] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield
10 [Det] Halberdiers @ [50] Pts
Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour
5 [Det] Handgunners @ [40] Pts
Hand Weapon; Handgun

State Troops (40#, 265 Pts)
24 Swordsmen @ 265 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield
1 Duellist @ [16] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield
5 [Det] Handgunners @ [40] Pts
Hand Weapon; Handgun
10 [Det] Halberdiers @ [50] Pts
Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour

Flagellants (16#, 170 Pts)
15 Flagellant Warband @ 170 Pts
Flail; Frenzy; Unbreakable
1 Prophet of Doom @ [20] Pts
Flail

State Troops (10#, 100 Pts)
9 Handgunners @ 100 Pts
Hand Weapon; Handgun
1 Marksman @ [28] Pts
Hand Weapon; Repeater Handgun

War Engines (4#, 100 Pts)
1 Great Cannon @ 100 Pts
Cannon
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon

War Engines (4#, 100 Pts)
1 Great Cannon @ 100 Pts
Cannon
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon

Pistoliers (6#, 132 Pts)
5 Pistoliers @ 132 Pts
Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Brace of Pistols; Light Armour; Fast Cavalry
1 Outrider @ [35] Pts
Hand Weapon; Pistol; Repeater Pistol; Light Armour
6 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

Knightly Orders (5#, 180 Pts)
4 Knightly Orders @ 180 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance & Shield (x4); Full Plate Armor
1 Preceptor @ [39] Pts
Hand Weapon; Lance; Full Plate Armor; Shield
1 War Banner @ [25] Pts
5 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

Knightly Orders (5#, 200 Pts)
4 Knightly Orders @ 200 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Knights of the Inner Circle; Barding; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon (x4); Full Plate Armor
1 Preceptor @ [42] Pts
Knights of the Inner Circle; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor
1 Banner of Valour @ [30] Pts
5 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

Warrior Priest of Sigmar (1#, 148 Pts)
1 Warrior Priest @ 148 Pts
Prayers of Sigmar; Barding; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour
1 Warhorse @ [0] Pts
1 Sword of Might @ [15] Pts
1 Icon of Magnus @ [25] Pts

War Engines (4#, 110 Pts)
1 Helblaster Volley Gun @ 110 Pts
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon

Total Roster Cost: 2250

Just quick things I see off the top of my head

Drop the handgunner detachments on both swordsmen units and take another unit of handgunners instead, drop the repeater handgun and get hochlands for both marksmen, this will allow you to take out characters (especially the heralds on the daemons)
Handgunners NEED musicians!

Drop the halberdiers to 9 strong and field them 3x3

Your Knights MUST be 6 strong each 5 is just to weak. Drop the banner of valour and give the war banner to your inner circle, this is your main hammer so it needs to be super effective. Drop in the Warrior Priest and your good to go

I personally don't like the hellblaster, too random and prone to blowing up plus you've got lots of shooty already.

Drop the Prophet of Doom, get 2 more flaggies and field them 3x6 or 2(=4 in the 3rd)x7 for maximum attacks

Drop the champ from the pistoliers for his cost you could get another pistolier (almost 2)

I also don't like the setup on your general, he needs a ward save to keep him around. I would take a Templar GM if you want to actually use him to fight something, Sword of Sigismund is good and add a holy relic

2nd wizard needs the rod of power to store extra dice for dispelling nasty VC magic or Daemon magic, level 2 seems like a waste of points especially on the scroll caddy

list with changes would be

TGM - Sword of Sigismund Holy Relic BWH General
WP - Sword of might, Icon of Magnus BWH
BW - lvl2 rod of power
BW - 2x scroll

25 Swordsmen - FC, 9x halberdier detachment
25 Swordsmen - FC, 9x halberdier detachment
12 Handgunners - Musician, Marksmen w hochland
12 Handgunners - Musician, Marksmen w hochland
21 Flaggellants

6 Knights - FC
6 Knights - FC Inner Circle War Banner
6 Pistoliers - Musician

Cannon
Cannon

Total - 2246

DD - 5 + rod +2 scrolls
PD - 5

2 anvils + flaggies
2 Hammers + flankers
2 Shooty and 2 cannons


Hope that helps, feel free to tell me I'm an idiot

PapaSmurf

I have to at least disagree with the build on your general. The job the of the 'General of the Empire' (I liked Count well enough...) is to lead and survive. He's not there to kill stuff. If you want to kill stuff, get a Grand master.

My personal favorite, like so many others it seems, is Sword of Sigismund and Holy Relic. Keeps him ailve, and he keeps the line in one place.

Ok, thats an easy switch on the general. Drop the Laurels, add the Holy Relic. Any other suggestions Manfred? I'd love to hear more input before I start the fiddling and tweaking.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of Halberdiers, even as detachments. I go with Free Company. I've done the math before, and in just about every case, the extra attacks outweigh the extra strength. Besides, the light armor on Halberdiers is often worthless. Combat detachments are there to break ranks and provide the flank bonus - rarely to actually kill anything.

I'm also not a fan of Handgunner detachments - They're only useful if they're not moving, and you fequently need to reposition your troops to receive the charges. And 5 shots again most units charging your parent units isn't going to do much.

For Handgunners, go big or go home. Take at least two units, and if you're going to take a Marksman, the only acceptable weapon is a Long Rifle.

I see most people's point about minimum-sized units of Knights, but I'd rather go with a big one led by a Priest. With the extra bodies, you'll be more likely to still have all your attacks when you finally charge in, and the Priest makes you hit that much harder with Hatred. Consider the War Banner for added punch, or possibly the Standard of Arcane Warding or Banner of the Daemonslayer, depending on local conditions.

Wizards - either upgrade both, or niether. If niether, consider a scroll caddy and the Rod of Power to save your unused power dice for added dispelling. If both, you have lots of toys to play with.

Cannons - gotta love 'em.

Helblaster - This thing got nerfed now that you need to roll to hit, especially when compared to similiar other units (Organ Gun, Salamanders). My experience is that it isn't nearly as frightening a wepons a sit used to be.

Drop the champion of the Flagellants; he only gets you one extra attack, and for fewer points you can get another model.

Put your General on a Barded Warhorse. Cavalry-based characters can now freely join units of infantry without being targetable, so you may as well boost his save as high as possible.

Here you go. Hopefully I don’t echo too much of what has already been said.

************

Normally Krueger loved the fall. The crispness in the air, the scents of apples, pumpkins, and fall stouts, and the harvest dances all made the old man feel young again. But, this year, war seemed to be the main harvest. For the countless time he could remember, Krueger was loaned out to review yet another Elector Count’s mustered soldiery.

And so he waited in the muddy courtyard of yet another Empire noble. The old man sighed in resignation as he straightened some imaginary strands of hair on his head. Sometimes he swore that the Empire had more nobles than citizens. At least the Sigmarite priestess had joined him this time. Hopefully this Elector Count won’t find some fault with him, as long as the priestess was with him. Sliding his fingers under his glasses, Krueger rubbed at his eyes. A gentle nudge on his hip, made him jerks his fingers back, and quickly bow towards the Empire Field Marshall.

Coughing to clear his throat, the old man started, “Do forgive, sir, I did not see you arrive, and my hearing isn’t what it used to be. As I know you are busy, and wish to be off to the glory of battle, I’ll get straight down to business.

“First, sir, while I have always been impressed with the Sword of Sigismund, and I know of the honor that the Laurels of Victory bestow upon you… I must wonder why you do not bring some sort of Sigmar-blessed trinket to protect you. While I am a man of science and technology, I have witnessed, first hand, how… such holy relics can seemingly twist away sword blows or cannon shot… a completely disconcerting effect, but… one that is mighty useful for protection on the battlefield. If I may be so bold, perhaps you should leave your crown of laurels at home, and perhaps obtain a holy relic? If you do not have one in your armories, the Priestess Senatoriae is quite capable of making you one… for a small donation to the Church of Sigmar.”

Smiling nervously, and hoping the Field Marshall had a sense of humor, Krueger quickly continued his review, “Next, sir, I’d like to quickly look at your lieutenants. I noticed two sorcerers practicing their arts, and a Priest training with your knights. Very respectable choices; however, I wonder why the priest carries with him something from Magnus. He should be brave enough on his own to be able to perform his duties without such a device. You might be able to convince him to leave it at home, and thereby saving you a few silvers in the process.

“Also… while the Lady von Hauptmann would disagree with me, it has been my experience that we humans simply do not understand the winds of magic like the other races do. You… might be able to save a bit of silver by sending home the older of your two wizards, and simply hiring a prodigal sorcerer of apprentice level. Doing so would save you a bit of coin, and still provide you with a fairly resilient protection to hostile magicks… especially done in conjunction with the Priest.”

For a moment Krueger paused and just said nothing. Paetricia coughed lightly a couple of times, then spoke. “Master Krueger, I do believe you have more to say.”

Blinking back out his stupor, the old continued, “Ah, yes, do forgive, sir. I’d like to take a quick moment to discuss your two companies of swordsmen. While I respect the fighting prowess of swordsmen, I must wonder at the detachments they have been given. First, I’d suggest hiring a couple more militia men to be handgunners… perhaps upsizing the squads to eight-men strong. If you need additional muskets to do this, I have some fine arms made by von Kolt himself that I have been given permission to rent out to you for a few silvers. Eight-man strong handgunner squads give them a bit more reliability on the field of battle, the ability to cause more casualties amongst the enemy, as well as potentially break enemy charges from their firepower. Though, handgunners tend to be static. They might not get off as many shots acting as a detachment. You might want to, instead, draft both detachments of handgunners into a second handgunner squad, where they should be able to get more time to pepper the enemy with lead and shot.

“But… I must wonder why you have halberdier detachments. I have never been impressed with the weapon, let alone the soldiers using it. It is slow, unwieldy, and often fumbled by the soldiers equipped with it. I would leave your halberdiers to perform Fire Watch at your town, sir, and instead hire some freelancers… perhaps some freebooters? They are considerably more expendable, and can be hired for mere pennies to the silver. Usually a squad of nine suffices.”

Krueger stuffed his hands into his deep coat pockets, and pulled out a number of scraps of parchment. Paetricia smilied pleasantly, ashe fumbled through them. “Field Marshall,” began the priestess, “while Master Krueger finds what it is he wishes to say, I would like to take a moment to mention a few things I have found.

As she spoke, the priestess smoothed her black, silk, vestments, “First, the followers of Sigmar that have banded together that follow the trail elements of your army. They are too small to be of any matter in battle. The lack the bite, and any real staying power. I would either disperse them, and spend your silver elsewhere, or attempt to muster up some additional zealots. A large company of them, while still vastly ineffective in combat, can tie up countless enemy units till your more skilled soldiers arrive. Their size right now, simply will not last. Also… the one they call “Aldolphus” should be… dealt with. He is more danger than he is worth… in fact, you could probably feed two of the zealots for all the food he gorges himself with.

“Next, while I have seen small squads of knights before, your lances lack the proper size. I would recommend you donate at least enough silver to increase their size to six knights strong. Also, while I understand that Inner Circle veterans are more capable then their standard brethren, they do require a larger donation to the chapterhouse. You would be able to save a bit of silver by not requesting such veterans. Doing so would free up the coin required to increase the number of knights you have. Also, while zweihanders are impressive on the ground, they are more unwieldy on horseback. I’d have to suggest dropping the zweihander in favor of lance and shield. While the zweihander would give you several minutes of hard hitting, if you upsize your knight squadrons, a good lance charge will break an enemy’s formation.”

“Found it!” blurted out Krueger. Handing the Empire general a confusing chart of angles, hyperbolas, and numbers, Krueger continued, “Here… as you can see from these notes, the repeater handgun, while effective with Outriders, is not as effective with handgunners. I would suggest leaving the experimental weapon at home for the marksman. Instead, get him a brace of pistols. Now, while pistols lack the range yes, it does give your handgunners a close-range surprise, as the hangunners will wait till the enemy is but a few yards away to fire, instead of firing at max range… closer the shot, easier it is to hit. In addition, it adds a bit of mobility to them. Even if your squad of handgunners has to advance, your Marksman can still fire the brace of pistols.

“Your Pistolier Korps squad is adequate, and I will not dwell on them. I am a big fan of cannons. And, there are few problems a brace of cannons cannot solve. However… while I have seen effective demonstrations of the Helblaster… it is as inconsistent as Cathyan Rocket Batteries. I would suggest, instead sir, to just leave the multi-cannon in town. With the silver you save, you could hire an additional squad of pistoliers, or pay for some of the other suggestions made.”

Finished with his comments, the old man took off his glasses and nervously rubbed his eyes. “Barring any questions, sir, the priestess and I will be on our way. We have other clients awaiting our review.”

Thanks for the feedback gentlemen. Modified list is posted below. Please give the revised list a look and some comments.

Thanks,
Mike K.

2250 Pts - Empire Roster - Unnamed

General of the Empire (1#, 161 Pts)
1 General of the Empire @ 161 Pts
General; Barding; Hand Weapon; Full Plate Armor; Shield
1 Warhorse @ [0] Pts
1 Holy Relic @ [45] Pts

Captain of the Empire (1#, 197 Pts)
1 Captain of the Empire (Battle Standard Bearer) @ 197 Pts
Barding; Hand Weapon; Full Plate Armor; Battle Standard Bearer
1 Warhorse @ [0] Pts
1 Imperial Banner @ [100] Pts

Battle Wizard (1#, 115 Pts)
1 Battle Wizard @ 115 Pts
Hand Weapon
1 Dispel Scroll @ [25] Pts
1 Dispel Scroll @ [25] Pts

Warrior Priest of Sigmar (1#, 135 Pts)
1 Warrior Priest @ 135 Pts
Prayers of Sigmar; Barding; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield
1 Warhorse @ [0] Pts
1 Icon of Magnus @ [25] Pts

Greatswords (34#, 325 Pts)
24 Greatswords @ 325 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor; Stubborn
1 Count's Champion @ [22] Pts
Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor
9 [Det] Free Company @ [45] Pts
Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon

State Troops (34#, 220 Pts)
24 Swordsmen @ 220 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield
1 Duellist @ [16] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield
9 [Det] Free Company @ [45] Pts
Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon

State Troops (34#, 220 Pts)
24 Swordsmen @ 220 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield
1 Duellist @ [16] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield
9 [Det] Free Company @ [45] Pts
Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon

State Troops (10#, 80 Pts)
10 Handgunners @ 80 Pts
Hand Weapon; Handgun

Militia Troops (10#, 100 Pts)
10 Archers @ 100 Pts
Huntsmen; Hand Weapon; Bow; Scouts; Skirmishers

Knightly Orders (6#, 178 Pts)
5 Knightly Orders @ 178 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance & Shield (x5); Full Plate Armor
1 Preceptor @ [39] Pts
Hand Weapon; Lance; Full Plate Armor; Shield
6 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

Knightly Orders (7#, 201 Pts)
6 Knightly Orders @ 201 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance & Shield (x6); Full Plate Armor
1 Preceptor @ [39] Pts
Hand Weapon; Lance; Full Plate Armor; Shield
7 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

Pistoliers (6#, 115 Pts)
6 Pistoliers @ 115 Pts
Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Brace of Pistols; Light Armour; Fast Cavalry
6 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

War Engines (4#, 100 Pts)
1 Great Cannon @ 100 Pts
Cannon
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon

War Engines (4#, 100 Pts)
1 Great Cannon @ 100 Pts
Cannon
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon

Total Roster Cost: 2247