Models with the Mark of Slaanesh and Sweeping Advance

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**Marius Xerxes**

It says in the rules for Sweeping Advance on p. 40 of the BRB "Always count the Initiative value from the models profile without any modifiers".

If you have a Deamon Prince of Slaanesh, does the added Int value count as a modifier, or a change to the profile before the game starts.

My feelings are that since it is purchased before the game and is a constant throughout, unlike Furious Charge and a Banshee Mask as examples, that I would give my opponent the full Int 6.

I know the Mark of Nurgle might be brought up as a precident to say its not a profile change, but that Mark goes on to specifically say it isnt a profile change in reguards to ID where as this doesnt.

How do others interpret this and play? As a modifier, or as a arguable profile change pre game?

**MinMax**

Looking at Abaddon and Noise Marines, it appears to be a change to their stat line. I'd say that it can be applied to Sweeping Advances.

**JD21290**

i agree with minmax on this, its an increace when taken, rather than things like klaws or PF's that change stats when used.

**Marius Xerxes**

Thats what I was thinking as well. I just wanted to put this out there to see what others in the community think and feel about it as well.

**sourclams**

I believe that more applies to things like Furious Charge.

**JD21290**

i know clams, it was just an example towards something that increaces stats during the game.

**Boss Ardnutz**

Does the same thing happen with the Str bonus from Enhanced Warriors? For example, if a CSM has +1 Str from EW, and is equipped with a powerfist, is his Str 9 (base Str 4 x 2 plus 1 for EW bonus) or Str 10 (base Str 5 x 2)?

**JD21290**

im guessing so ardnutz, aslong as the bonus was gained before the game begins.
(if im thinking right you roll once at the start of the game for enhanced right?)

only way i can logically think of dividing it:

anything that confers a bonus to stats before the game is fine, unless it states otherwise.

anything that confers a bonus during the game (ie: things like furious charge) dont count.

**Boss Ardnutz**

Good, then we played it correctly. It's quite a good trick since it means CSM PFs can instant-kill my warboss.... and they did, the one game I've played against this!

Of course the warboss wiped out the unit that hit him so it was all good. Nothing better than an opponent who charges into Meganobz, and when it comes to the I1 step asks "what do you mean they ALL have a power klaw?"

**JD21290**

lol, ardnutz, if you like klaws have a quick look at my army list:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219961.page

**Lordhat**

The BGB says that when adding and multiplying the same stat you always multiply first, then add the bonus. So your PF's would be str. 9

**Homer S**

Yes, double the base and then add. There should be a distinction made here. The Slaanesh demon should get the modified I for SA as should the Noise Marines. A regular squad gaining the Mark through an Icon should not, as this is a bonus and not a change to the stat.

Homer

**SlaveToDorkness**

Noise Mariens have the I 5 in their statline.No-Brainer there.
both the Iconed Slaanesh marines and Prince are boosted via Marks/Icons. Why would one use the higher I and another not?

I would say that any bonus that wasn't temporary would apply. So no to Furious Charge, but Yes to familiars and Icons/Marks.

**Typeline**

Boss Ardnutz wrote:Does the same thing happen with the Str bonus from Enhanced Warriors? For example, if a CSM has +1 Str from EW, and is equipped with a powerfist, is his Str 9 (base Str 4 x 2 plus 1 for EW bonus) or Str 10 (base Str 5 x 2)?

It's 10. That isn't a +1 bonus. It just changes their Str stat from 4 to 5. So the PFs from EW are hitting with Str 10. Neat huh?

**MinMax**

Typeline wrote:
Boss Ardnutz wrote:Does the same thing happen with the Str bonus from Enhanced Warriors? For example, if a CSM has +1 Str from EW, and is equipped with a powerfist, is his Str 9 (base Str 4 x 2 plus 1 for EW bonus) or Str 10 (base Str 5 x 2)?

It's 10. That isn't a +1 bonus. It just changes their Str stat from 4 to 5. So the PFs from EW are hitting with Str 10. Neat huh?

No, it's 9. It IS, in fact, a +1 bonus. The Fabius Bile page does not say that their close combat attacks are resolved at Strength 5, or anything similar to that. It simply says that they have a +1 bonus to Strength. As it says in the Core Rulebook, multiply (4*2), then add (8+1). Thus, you get 9.

**Marius Xerxes**

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Noise Mariens have the I 5 in their statline.No-Brainer there.
both the Iconed Slaanesh marines and Prince are boosted via Marks/Icons. Why would one use the higher I and another not?

I would say that any bonus that wasn't temporary would apply. So no to Furious Charge, but Yes to familiars and Icons/Marks.

The reason I would say yes for one and not the other is as follows.

Having the Int bonus due to an Icon is in a way, capable of being tempoary. Should the model with the Icon die, then the bonus is lost to everyone else. So its not something that the unit as a whole holds until its destruction, unlike the Prince.

**JD21290**

marius, the bonus was present at the start of the battle, yes, its lost once he dies, but untill then i would say it counts.

**JD21290**

No, it's 9. It IS, in fact, a +1 bonus. The Fabius Bile page does not say that their close combat attacks are resolved at Strength 5, or anything similar to that. It simply says that they have a +1 bonus to Strength.

can you quote from the dex please?

im just thinking that since the +1 bonus applies before the game has started that it is fixed into the model profile rather than added when used.

**MinMax**

JD21290 wrote:
No, it's 9. It IS, in fact, a +1 bonus. The Fabius Bile page does not say that their close combat attacks are resolved at Strength 5, or anything similar to that. It simply says that they have a +1 bonus to Strength.

can you quote from the dex please?

im just thinking that since the +1 bonus applies before the game has started that it is fixed into the model profile rather than added when used.

Certainly, my good penguin.

Page 53. "...Survivors are Fearless and at +1 Strength...", "...Enhanced Warriors are Fearless and at +1 Strength...".

The Core Rulebook doesn't discriminate between temporary additions and permanent additions. +1 Strength and x2 Strength are resolved by multiplying the base Strength by 2, then adding 1 to the result.

**SlaveToDorkness**

It just says they have "+1 Strength for the game". I would say that's an increase to their statline itself, so S10 with PF.

**JD21290**

Certainly, my good penguin.

Page 53. "...Survivors are Fearless and at +1 Strength...", "...Enhanced Warriors are Fearless and at +1 Strength...".

The Core Rulebook doesn't discriminate between temporary additions and permanent additions. +1 Strength and x2 Strength are resolved by multiplying the base Strength by 2, then adding 1 to the result.

thank you my good parrot.
then this is a bonus that is applied to a models stats before the game starts, and there for increacing the models base stats rather than being an addition like furious charge.

**JD21290**

a quick way of looking at this:

a carnifex being given extended carapace (3+ save increaced to a 2+ save)

this is an upgrade that is performed before the battle has started, it is fixed into a models stat line.
enhanced warrior increacements (sp?) are simply an upgrade, and like all upgrades, cost points.

**SlaveToDorkness**

Unfortunantly the rules on pg. 7 make no mention of any of that. There seems to be no difference between fixed bonuses and circumstantial bonuses to stats. Plus pg 40 is VERY specific that you use "the model's I from its profile, without any modifiers."

So Enhanced Warriors would get S9 with PFs, and everybody uses their "base" I for Sweeping Advance.
So Noise Marines and Demon Princes are I5 and Marines with an Icon would be I4.

Much as I'd like otherwise, that is RAW.

**JD21290**

i need to pick up the chaos dex

if it was pretty much any other army i could quote from it, but the chaos dex is on is way :(

**Marius Xerxes**

JD21290 wrote:marius, the bonus was present at the start of the battle, yes, its lost once he dies, but untill then i would say it counts.

As you can see from my OP I think its not a bonus but a stat increase.

I was simply riding the other side of the argument for that particular post.

**JD21290**

i see marius, ill post more once the dex arrives

should be monday.

**Antonin**

It does not say that the stat is now 5, or any language to that effect - it's a +1, and as pointed out above, the rule on multiplying does not care whether the increase is granted before the game or during the game (actually, you roll for the enhanced marines during the entire setting up portion of the game, so really the +1 does not appear until then - it is not a function of the armylist build itself, but occurs later.)

**wyomingfox**

And the arguement for EW = Str 10 PF rears its ugly head again. Based on the debate below I felt EW = Str 9 PF:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/221176.page

**Nurglitch**

I remember back when the community had these discussions about Toughness. Why GW doesn't use the x(b) nomenclature for all bonuses escapes me, but it seems that a good rule of thumb is that if a characteristic has a number added to it, then that characteristic has received a bonus and that bonus gets ignored whenever indicated.

Instant Death, for example, is figured using the basic T4 of a Plague Marine, not the T(5) conferred by the toughness bonus from the Mark of Nurgle.

If the rating of a characteristic is replaced by another rating, such as when a Carnifex is given an Extended Carapace, replacing its Sv3+ with Sv2+, then it's not a bonus. It's basically the difference between being arithmetically additive and logically additive.