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Okay..here is the example:

Say there is chaos sorceror equipped with Lash of Submission mounted in a rhino. The rhino moves 12" can I use Lash out the top hatch (fire point) even though I am moving at Cruising Speed? Cruising Speed prohibits Weapons from Firing. Can Lash still be cast even though it says it's used instead of another ranged weapon..but isn't classified as a weapon. Discuss.

Capt K

No, the Sorcerer may not use the Lash of Submission when embarked on a vehicle moving at cruising speed. See p.66 and p.50 of the rulebook. He would need to disembark in order to use the Lash of Submission.

Ah, but the argument is made that you can because Lash isn't classified as a shooting psychic attack. I agree with you, but someone on another forum is claiming this. I just wanted Dakka's take on it. So send in the posse!

Here is the link to the forum if you where this is being discussed.

http://orlando40k.3.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=1845&st=81


Capt K

Tell them that they're dumb and move on

Lash most certainly is a shooting power. The words, "A psyker may use this power in the Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon." tend to give it away.

On p.88 of Codex: Chaos Space Marines it says of both Lash of Submission and Doombolt:

"A psyker may use this psychic power in the Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon."

"Doombolt may be used in the model's Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon."

On p.50 of the Rulebook it says of Psychic Shooting Attacks:

"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack."

So the Lash of Submission is a psychic shooting attack, and is limited in the ways specified in the rulebook.

Agree with Nurglitch. If there is anything that prevents you from using a ranged weapon (for example riding in a transport that moved at cruising speed) then you may not use Lash.

There is one question that form the heart of this argument:

Is Lash a "shooting psychic power" as defined by the rules on Page 50?

One argument says Yes! because it takes place "instead of firing a weapon". That solves the issue that created this thread but leads to other complications. For example, if it is a psychic shooting attack, does it need to roll to hit? Does he have to charge the unit he Lashes? Etc. Etc.

One argument says No! Just because the power takes the place of a weapon, does not immediately classify it as a weapon itself. It's like saying that instead of firing a cannon, to instead eat this pie. Just because you are making a substitution does not suddenly turn a Pie into a Canon. This argument says that Lash simply follows the rules for Lash as stated, nothing more, nothing less. If Lash isn't a "shooting psychic power" then there is no restriction stopping a Slaneesh Sorceror from using it in a vehicle that has move over 6".

Actually, the answer is in the semantics of the rule.

'A psyker may use this power in the shooting phase instead of another ranged weapon'

By stating another, it is clearly showing Lash of Submission to be an alternate ranged weapon at the disposal of the Sorceror.

Oh, and I demand anyone who uses double Lash in their force play Devo's 'Whip It' during their turns, and limits their turn to the length of the song.

'When a problem comes along, you must whip it'
'Now Whip it, into shape. Go forward. Move ahead'

Pretty much written for that psychic power

Nevermind.

Discovered my own error and removed my post to save myself some embarrassment.

If you want to use Lash in a cruising transport while avoiding an arguement, just disembark. You are now free to move about the cabin.

Quick question and just for my information, does Lash need LOS?

Yes Lash needs LOS.

Capt K

There is more evidence to support that it is a shooting attack than there is showing that it is not a shooting attack. Additionally, claiming that you can Lash and Run is laughable as well.

Capt K

Mahu wrote:There is one question that form the heart of this argument:

Is Lash a "shooting psychic power" as defined by the rules on Page 50?

One argument says Yes! because it takes place "instead of firing a weapon". That solves the issue that created this thread but leads to other complications. For example, if it is a psychic shooting attack, does it need to roll to hit? Does he have to charge the unit he Lashes? Etc. Etc.

One argument says No! Just because the power takes the place of a weapon, does not immediately classify it as a weapon itself. It's like saying that instead of firing a cannon, to instead eat this pie. Just because you are making a substitution does not suddenly turn a Pie into a Canon. This argument says that Lash simply follows the rules for Lash as stated, nothing more, nothing less. If Lash isn't a "shooting psychic power" then there is no restriction stopping a Slaneesh Sorceror from using it in a vehicle that has move over 6".

The more I think about it, the more I am inclined to believe that it is a shooting weapon, which you don't need to roll to hit for because Codex > Rulebook.

Mahu wrote: which you don't need to roll to hit for because Codex > Rulebook.

Kind of like MindWar if I recall correctly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxH39QlRuhg



G

from what it says i would class it as shooting.
so it wouldnt be able to fire from a transport is moving at a certain speed ect ect.....

So I wonder who will be the first to have a soscorer or DP Devo conversion?

Nah, still be better with a Hive tyrant and guard with Lash Whips.... and those cool red hats.

Maybe a Lucius conversion where he wears a red helmet?

HAAAA!!!



G

There is nothing in the rule that says the lash is a shooting attack. Its used instead of any other, but doesnt say it is one itself. Feel free to use it if you want when playing RAW.

If Lash is used in the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon then it should be classed as a shooting attack.

If it isnt a shooting attack it creates other debates as well, like can i lash a unit then assault a different one?



GMort.

If it isnt a shooting attack it creates other debates as well, like can i lash a unit then assault a different one?

Exactly. By his logic you'd be able to Lash and Run as well...which we all know is rediculous.

Capt K

Wich you may or may not know, but if you read it there is NOTHING stating that it is a shooting attack. Just a lot of things to indicate that it might be.

Running, assulting diffrent things whatever, there is nothing restricting it how it is written.

This is however by strict raw and will probably not make you any friends.

Maybe instead of "RAW" you should just read the rules properly. It states that the Lash of Submission is a shooting attack.

Nurglitch wrote:On p.88 of Codex: Chaos Space Marines it says of both Lash of Submission and Doombolt:

"A psyker may use this psychic power in the Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon."

"Doombolt may be used in the model's Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon."

On p.50 of the Rulebook it says of Psychic Shooting Attacks:

"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack."

So the Lash of Submission is a psychic shooting attack, and is limited in the ways specified in the rulebook.

Nurglitch wrote:Maybe instead of "RAW" you should just read the rules properly. It states that the Lash of Submission is a shooting attack.

Nurglitch wrote:On p.88 of Codex: Chaos Space Marines it says of both Lash of Submission and Doombolt:

"A psyker may use this psychic power in the Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon."

"Doombolt may be used in the model's Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon."

On p.50 of the Rulebook it says of Psychic Shooting Attacks:

"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack."

So the Lash of Submission is a psychic shooting attack, and is limited in the ways specified in the rulebook.

There you go making sense again

Kallbrand wrote:Wich you may or may not know, but if you read it there is NOTHING stating that it is a shooting attack. Just a lot of things to indicate that it might be.

Running, assulting diffrent things whatever, there is nothing restricting it how it is written.

This is however by strict raw and will probably not make you any friends.

By strict RAW it is. Read the rule book. Nurglethingy has provided the page number. Also the rule says instead of "another" - therefore by definition it must be one as well.

Where in lash of submission does it state that it is a "psychic shooting attack"?? You can quote all you want from the rules but there isnt any line saying that it actually is and that is by strict RAW.

The fact that it is used in the shooting phase doesnt mean that it is, neither does the fact that it is used instead of firing another weapon. It just means you cant do both.

I would agree that by RAW lash isn't a shooting attack. Nurglitch's ("instead of using another ranged weapon") only proves that it is ranged and a weapon, not that it is a shooting attack. Similarly doombolt isn't a shooting attack because of that bit of text, it is a shooting attack because of the weapon profile. There is no weapon profile for lash.

And from a RAI perspective, why would it be a shooting weapon? It isn't firing a projectile or anything remotely similar. If you wanted to classify it as a type of weapon its a melee weapon with long reach since its a whip. But really, its a psychic mind affecting attack, not a shot.

The only logical argument to RAI it being a shooting attack is the fact that it would be stupidly broken if it wasn't.
But of course, it already is stupidly overpowered so that debunks that argument.

All that said, yes i run it as a shooting attack on the extremely rare occasions i use it simply because it is plenty powerful enough already and i don't want to get into a RAW argument about it with anybody.

Where in lash of submission does it state that it is a "psychic shooting attack"?? You can quote all you want from the rules but there isnt any line saying that it actually is and that is by strict RAW.

Well the 'burden of proof' is actually on those that follow this guideline. Simply put, if a power is used in the 'shooting phase' and is not explicitly stated as not a psychic shooting attack (like gift of chaos in the C:CSM FAQ) then it is one. What I mean is, how many psychic powers out there actually use the words "psychic shooting attack" in their definition or profile? The only one that does is the only 5th edition codex (C:SM). So, with older books the only guidelines we have is the limited wording in the rule book on "psychic shooting attacks". And the ONLY guideline we have to follow is "Psychic powers that take the form of shooting attacks are very common." and "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon."

So, the argument stems from the second quote found on Pg. 50. In which using a "psychic shooting attack" COUNTS as firing a ranged weapon. Ergo, it can be easily interpreted that any power that is used 'instead' of shooting is an attack 'counts' as firing a ranged weapon.

4th ed codex do not use that exact line, so we have to interpret the best we can from the quotes given in the rule book to ascertain what powers are what. I really can see where you are coming from though, but that is strict RAW that does not work (i.e. CSM terminators not wearing Terminator armor, moving in your opponents assault phase, and other strict no kidding RAW reading that leads to silly outcomes)

Personally I truly believe that this a shooting power and to say its not is one of the silliest (and extremely broken) things I have ever heard.