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Walkers gain extra attacks differently to infanty, walkers gain one extra attack for each additional close combat weapon after the first. Deff dreads come with a base profile of 3 attacks and are equipped with two power klaws, so they also gain one additional attack from their wargear. If you pay the points cost for another two power klaws the deff dread will gain two more attacks, taking it to a total of 6 attacks.

xlDuke wrote:
Walkers gain extra attacks differently to infanty, walkers gain one extra attack for each additional close combat weapon after the first. Deff dreads come with a base profile of 3 attacks and are equipped with two power klaws, so they also gain one additional attack from their wargear. If you pay the points cost for another two power klaws the deff dread will gain two more attacks, taking it to a total of 6 attacks.

7 if you charge.

 koooaei wrote:
That's kinda homeruled cause FW clearly stated they underpriced it by 400 pts.

Define clearly because afaik they never made any public statement nor have I seen any statement. I've heard people say they recieved emails back but even the two emails I saw contradicted themselves. One reply stated you had to pay for buzzgrob, the big Mek stomp and then add 300 more points. The other said it was just a stompa and 300 points. And a third reply I've never seen claimed you just need to pay for buzzgrob and that 300 was a misprint and should be 880 as per apoc. This is about as clear as mud. That's three different supposed emails not even including the official 6th Ed update which is what ITC uses. At least that update is clear pay for buzzgrob and add 300 points for a big Mek stompa.
The one question I have for you is if fw has gone back and updated PDFs before because the used the wrong profiles why in the world haven't they gone back and changed the point cost on this PDF in over three years? It makes no sense.

Its underpriced. Theres no way a "better" stompa is damn near half the price of the basic stompa.

Only reason nobody scoffs at it is because thats what a stompa SHOULD cost. 2x the price of a stormsurge, less effective than one stormsurge.

I saw a guy say a stompa could get 14 attacks as a claw stompa? What is that guys?

They haven't gone back because orks make them jack moneywise. People are fine buying a unique sculpt for marine dreadnaught #32, but that is 200+ points on the field. Forgeworld is asking 70+ dollars for what is essentially an ork trukk with a lobba on it. Also orks tend to scratch build things. Have you ever seen an ork player with more than one of the official mek guns? No because the cost is stupid. IA8 won't get a remake, they are done trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Next is tau vs admech, things that as a company will make them money.

They don't update because why bother? We were lucky to get hull points for what we did have. I honestly don't expect to see a new Ork forgeworld model for a loooong time.

Hmmm, its an interesting premise Orock. And with Orks I sort of agree.
But it dsoent explain gak releases for Nids, Chaos, DE etc who have sold because they are very unique models and sculpts that cant be kitbashed and have a unique aesthetic and form.

I dont think IA8 will get an update personally (I actually emailed FW about it: no awnser) but I think Orks will get a "full" 7.5 codex. Whether its gak or not remains to be seen.....

Nids and dark eldar can't easily replicate or in many cases improve on forgeworld options (easily, seen great examples by talented hobbyists) so they have little choice. Buy FW or don't use it. I have 5 scratch built grot tanks, mega and meka dreads, warkoptas, zjadsnark, and others that I made for 1/10th what I would have been charged. And they look good and unique and so far not one person has batted an eyelash when I field them and say this represents unit X. So it makes sense for forgeworld to abandon me. I'm not making them a dime, except for the GW kits I canabalize for them. But again that won't show on their profit credit sheet, so even though there may be thousands of proxies, all their books show is "orks don't sell".

What FW should do, is provide grab-bags of mis-cast parts from all their lines, (there will be miss-casts), and lines of small, high-detail components and gubbins. A variety of bitz that are zzapy, some bits that are killy, some bits that are 'ard, some that are shooty. Don't say they're any specific weapon or piece of wargear, but make them just generally orky bitz- price them at a few dollars each (maybe 50 cents per ounce of material or something like that?), sell them as singles and as economy-priced packs of multiples. Ork players would eat that up. Especially things like track assemblies and wheels, glyph plates and varieties of Shoota and shoulderpad and Powerklaw and Deffdred arms. Don't try to sell entire models, though.

Nids and dark eldar can't easily replicate or in many cases improve on forgeworld options (easily, seen great examples by talented hobbyists) so they have little choice. Buy FW or don't use it. I have 5 scratch built grot tanks, mega and meka dreads, warkoptas, zjadsnark, and others that I made for 1/10th what I would have been charged. And they look good and unique and so far not one person has batted an eyelash when I field them and say this represents unit X. So it makes sense for forgeworld to abandon me. I'm not making them a dime, except for the GW kits I canabalize for them. But again that won't show on their profit credit sheet, so even though there may be thousands of proxies, all their books show is "orks don't sell".

You miss my point though. Nids are at this stage unique enough, model-wise and rules and copywrite wise for GW to be able to sell them bigtime!
Even the smaller indie kickstarters and game houses cant replicate the idea/aesthetic and "feel" of the Nids. GW did well - lets give them credit here.

However the Nids core rulebook (and supps) are gak.

So.

How are GW hating on Orks?

They arent. They just have gak rules writers or oversight of both factions :(

Anvildude wrote:
What FW should do, is provide grab-bags of mis-cast parts from all their lines, (there will be miss-casts), and lines of small, high-detail components and gubbins. A variety of bitz that are zzapy, some bits that are killy, some bits that are 'ard, some that are shooty. Don't say they're any specific weapon or piece of wargear, but make them just generally orky bitz- price them at a few dollars each (maybe 50 cents per ounce of material or something like that?), sell them as singles and as economy-priced packs of multiples. Ork players would eat that up. Especially things like track assemblies and wheels, glyph plates and varieties of Shoota and shoulderpad and Powerklaw and Deffdred arms. Don't try to sell entire models, though.

They USED to have mail order. You could order any and all bits you wanted. Some genius decided it would make them more money NOT doing this and instead making you buy a kit for the parts you want. Then eBay came along and proved them wrong.

they nerfed units that didnt need nerfing (killa kanz, burnas, lootas, footnobz, dakkajet), gave us an abysmal new toy which is unusual for any race, gave us restrictions nobody else has in terms of relic options, and they removed our invul save.

Thats just part of the gak they have to deal with now. How are they NOT hating on orks? Not even the Nid codex release was that bad.

Quite literally the only buffs orks got are warbiker pricing is good and Da Lucky Stikk is epic. Thats it. Stormboyz got "buffed" by a major price cut but they rendered it completely fethin useless by giving them all dangertests to utilize the speed they already had WITHOUT dangertests. I would put Mek Gunz in that list of buffs, but loss of a Runtherder makes them very, very susceptible to leadership issues (LD5)

Hell, they nerfed SHOOTA BOYZ...the frick would you nerf shoota boyz for (that 1pt adds up with standard boy numbers). Yeah, stikkbombs are stock now but we dont care were init2 anyway.
Deffrolla is completely utterly useless now, while before it was just a gimick that had some potential.
Cant even say they gave us run and charge during the waaagh because we had that pre-6th. Thats something that should have been faq'd in the moment 6th/7th dropped, not wait for a new damn codex.

Also I was not commenting on who had better or worse rules. The fact is model stats change. A crappy nid forgeworld model today may on the book upgrade becomes fantastic. Or edition may change and make their rules suddenly favorable. When that happens forgeworld makes money from more sales out of interest of the model having new good rules.

But do you know what happens when ork models suddenly become viable? That's right, orks up and scratch build them to use. Forgeworld might see ten? precent increased sales.

Thats why I don't think you will see them anymore, good or bad rules. They are trying to sell a premium item at a premium price, but it's something you can build at home that won't be as good, but will save you a mint. Easily replicated premium products don't sell.

 Orock wrote:
They haven't gone back because orks make them jack moneywise. People are fine buying a unique sculpt for marine dreadnaught #32, but that is 200+ points on the field. Forgeworld is asking 70+ dollars for what is essentially an ork trukk with a lobba on it. Also orks tend to scratch build things. Have you ever seen an ork player with more than one of the official mek guns? No because the cost is stupid. IA8 won't get a remake, they are done trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Next is tau vs admech, things that as a company will make them money.

They don't update because why bother? We were lucky to get hull points for what we did have. I honestly don't expect to see a new Ork forgeworld model for a loooong time.

Yep, I bought exactly one official Mek Gunz and scratch built the rest using mostly imperium bits with some cosmetic Ork bits on top. They are exactly the same size and look great. I'd buy more Mek Gunz if three were the price of one.

I don't scratch build or convert my Orks but I usually use eBay for new purchases, if they released rules that did the models justice then I would happily buy an obscene amount of stuff from GW and Forgeworld, I'm holding out hope that our IA gets updated and the models re-released because I'd love to add some new vehicles to my mek shop.
I'm aware that this approach might give the company the impression that a new release won't be successful because sales are low (if they are) at the moment, but from the other releases I see coming out they're obviously aware that good rules will mean good sales.

 Orock wrote:
They haven't gone back because orks make them jack moneywise. People are fine buying a unique sculpt for marine dreadnaught #32, but that is 200+ points on the field. Forgeworld is asking 70+ dollars for what is essentially an ork trukk with a lobba on it. Also orks tend to scratch build things. Have you ever seen an ork player with more than one of the official mek guns? No because the cost is stupid. IA8 won't get a remake, they are done trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Next is tau vs admech, things that as a company will make them money.

They don't update because why bother? We were lucky to get hull points for what we did have. I honestly don't expect to see a new Ork forgeworld model for a loooong time.

So basically you have no reason why forgeworld couldn't be bothered to update this PDF or any reason why there is at best 4 different repliesn saying completely different things. Got it ....Thanks for clearing it up.

Forgeworld can't be bothered to update for the same reason GW does not give enough of a s@$t to faq their books. Someone in the company said "doing this makes us no money and in fact can discourage sales once the rule is clarified to be weaker than originally thought, potentially discouraging someone from buying what at first glance seemed like a really solid unit".

And there is no reason to be snarky. People tried to give you insight on what and why the thought processes may be for this obvious customer neglect, and your reply boils down to "so basically none of you know for sure, thanks for nothing". If you are looking for official GW responses, you will be waiting a while.

You got it no one has any clue what the actual rules are for this unit... That's my point. I don't expect a response from GW. I also don't expect a response from people on the internet pretending they know the actual rules when there isn't any consensus or any official statement on the rules. In fact your still assuming the 6th Ed update isn't what fw intended especially since the bs2 lifta droppa was nerfed to worthlessness on 90% of the targets in 40k.

For some reason GW have a problem to point price things, for example a BW with all its weapon options and 'ard case costs 185 with 12 transport capacity and its not an assault vehicle, a land raider costs 240-250 and has better weapons better armour 12 to 16 capasity power of the machine spirit and it is assault vehicle.
And not to mention things like gorkanaut vs dreadknight or wraithknight

I get the part that orks don't make a lot of profit for GW but why then its one of the 2 options for the market campain of the battle for Vedros? (product to attract new players)

As much as I hate a lot of the points costs in the codex they aren't entirely wrong. If you go back to Ed3 Codex Orks you could buy a nobs mob with a 3+ /5++ a power Klaw and a big shoota and LD8 with a reroll for about 80+ points.
If you take into account the teff economy it makes more sense.
Why would anything worth using be affordable at all? This also drives the use of Boys mobs. Sadly Boys mobs are ....... not nearly as strong as they were over the lase several editions.
I don't see comparing the Ork codex in any edition to any codex other than Orks. Orks are always about a form of internal balance or imbalance if you prefer.
So far the only good and possible improvement I am seeing is the inclusion of aircraft squads and any other formation that allows more than one of a kind to be taken. ( This puts me up to 5 vehicle formations I like ...and I think that's it.)
The points costs could be mitigated easily enough by just giving orks more options to choose from rather than less.
I'd still be all for free trukks and that sort of thing but I doubt it will ever happen.

So far I've used the blitz bomber Squadron and am impressed, despite my rolling being so bad on armour-pens and the damage table...

 thenewgozoku wrote:
For some reason GW have a problem to point price things, for example a BW with all its weapon options and 'ard case costs 185 with 12 transport capacity and its not an assault vehicle, a land raider costs 240-250 and has better weapons better armour 12 to 16 capasity power of the machine spirit and it is assault vehicle.
And not to mention things like gorkanaut vs dreadknight or wraithknight

I get the part that orks don't make a lot of profit for GW but why then its one of the 2 options for the market campain of the battle for Vedros? (product to attract new players)

The same reason all their get started boxes have rules designed to push models no one is buying, like nobs or deff dreads. They have old stock they need to move thru, and the old ork vehicles at least dont use much plastic, so recycling them does not net you as much as putting them in a new box and liquidating them cheap, especially if it draws in more committed customers.

thats why they dont make much money because the rules are so bad.

Its one thing to have units that arent auto-win button strong, its another to have them be so weak they literally never do anything. Majority of the ork codex falls under that mentality.

Orks arent even fun to play anymore because theyre so behind the curve of power. Fun should be the main reason you play this game, and getting tabled turn3 every game isnt fun. If i lose but i went down swinging and he only has a few units left after i die off, i had fun. When i lose and he still has 2/3 his army because he killed damn near half mine in 1 shooting phase, i didnt have fun.

 Geemoney wrote:
Here is roughly the list I have been using, I have been tweaking it.

Council
Ghazz
Dok
Warboss mega armour + stikk
Warboss Big Choppa
Big Mek Mega KFF
3 Nobz, Big Choppa

Waaagh Band
2 units of 9 boyz + Nob w/ Klaw
4 units of 9 boyz + Nob w/ Big Choppa
All in trukks

Warboss eavy armour + Klaw, 3 nobz with big choppas, in a trukk

plus other required units

Aux
Battlewagon for the council


It would be interesting to see what I could do if I dropped the Nobz and or Trukks, I would like to add Stormboyz/Kommandos/Tank bustas to the list.

I would change the boyz to

2 units of 9 boyz + Nob w/ Klaw
2 units of 9 boyz + Nob w/ Big Choppa
All in trukks

2 units of 10 boyz w/ shootas

that gives you about another 80 points

I ended up top Orks at March Maddness and 5th overall.

Game 1: Space Wolves in Drop Pods. I won comfortably.
Game 2: Tyranids. We were using the 2015 missions, and I couldn't roll Maelstrom to save my life, so we tied it.
Game 3: Eldar. This was a really complicated game because of our table, and my opponent and I have dramatically different ideas on how terrain worked. It was also my weakest mission. Another Tie.
Game 4: White Scars Bikes. We had lots of early game rules back and forward, and spent alot of the time getting judges rulings. Our game ended at the bottom of 4. I need to make a 9" charge. I failed. He won. If it had gone on to 6, Maybe.
Game 5: Grey Knights. I Tabled Him.
Game 6: Stompa v Stompa deathbattle. I came out on top. Tabled him.

I ended up going 3-1-2 for a total score of 4040 which was good enough for 5th place overall.

I wish I had game 3 and 4 back, to do a better job prenegotiating the rules debates. Usually I'm playing at a high enough table, that I don't have to contend with so many rules debates, and especially in Game 4, my opponent was a top tier player, so I wasn't expecting so much, but he was just unfamiliar with the ITC a bit. The time lost debating rules was as much a problem for me in those games as anything else. Also, they ended up ruling that Mek's are HQ's even if I attach them to another unit, and that screwed up my list quite a bit, because I had to put them all inside the Stompa, and there wasn't enough room for Gretchin + Lootas.

There were 5 total Ork players in attendance. 4 Stompas, and one Orcurion Trukk rush list (No Ghaz). Another Stompa list ended up 4-2. The top 3 were Eldar (#1 was Eldar + Harliquins + Corsairs). The 4th ranked player was Tau.

tag8833 wrote:
I ended up top Orks at March Maddness and 5th overall.

Game 1: Space Wolves in Drop Pods. I won comfortably.
Game 2: Tyranids. We were using the 2015 missions, and I couldn't roll Maelstrom to save my life, so we tied it.
Game 3: Eldar. This was a really complicated game because of our table, and my opponent and I have dramatically different ideas on how terrain worked. It was also my weakest mission. Another Tie.
Game 4: White Scars Bikes. We had lots of early game rules back and forward, and spent alot of the time getting judges rulings. Our game ended at the bottom of 4. I need to make a 9" charge. I failed. He won. If it had gone on to 6, Maybe.
Game 5: Grey Knights. I Tabled Him.
Game 6: Stompa v Stompa deathbattle. I came out on top. Tabled him.

I ended up going 3-1-2 for a total score of 4040 which was good enough for 5th place overall.

I wish I had game 3 and 4 back, to do a better job prenegotiating the rules debates. Usually I'm playing at a high enough table, that I don't have to contend with so many rules debates, and especially in Game 4, my opponent was a top tier player, so I wasn't expecting so much, but he was just unfamiliar with the ITC a bit. The time lost debating rules was as much a problem for me in those games as anything else. Also, they ended up ruling that Mek's are HQ's even if I attach them to another unit, and that screwed up my list quite a bit, because I had to put them all inside the Stompa, and there wasn't enough room for Gretchin + Lootas.

There were 5 total Ork players in attendance. 4 Stompas, and one Orcurion Trukk rush list (No Ghaz). Another Stompa list ended up 4-2. The top 3 were Eldar (#1 was Eldar + Harliquins + Corsairs). The 4th ranked player was Tau.

Excellent job!

 Ratius wrote:
I saw a guy say a stompa could get 14 attacks as a claw stompa? What is that guys?

That my friend is a kustom Stompa from IA:8 turned into a klawfrenzy stompa. You have to give him two titan close combat weapons. Stompa is base 4 attack. Each arm addes an additional 3 attacks. (FW Imperial: apoc book faq for that) Klawfrenzy gives him an additional 3 attacks. Then plus 1 for two weapons. 4+3+3+3+1=14 Now you are I1 so be careful how you charge into combat with. A knight can still kill you if he strikes first. Suggestion hide in terrain. Get them to come to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
That's kinda homeruled cause FW clearly stated they underpriced it by 400 pts.

Define clearly because afaik they never made any public statement nor have I seen any statement. I've heard people say they recieved emails back but even the two emails I saw contradicted themselves. One reply stated you had to pay for buzzgrob, the big Mek stomp and then add 300 more points. The other said it was just a stompa and 300 points. And a third reply I've never seen claimed you just need to pay for buzzgrob and that 300 was a misprint and should be 880 as per apoc. This is about as clear as mud. That's three different supposed emails not even including the official 6th Ed update which is what ITC uses. At least that update is clear pay for buzzgrob and add 300 points for a big Mek stompa.
The one question I have for you is if fw has gone back and updated PDFs before because the used the wrong profiles why in the world haven't they gone back and changed the point cost on this PDF in over three years? It makes no sense.

The source of where the points discrepcies is from FW old facebook page, which you can't see anymore, but if you e-mail them about it they will tell you it should cost 800pts. Personally I've not been able to tell me how it breaks down. Because its supposed to be buzzgob+ his stompa. If you want to use Buzzgob stompa, you should check with TO before the event to see if they are going to allow it and how many point it is. Personally, the couple times i've played it, we've just gone with what the pdf says.

 Glitcha wrote:

gungo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
That's kinda homeruled cause FW clearly stated they underpriced it by 400 pts.

Define clearly because afaik they never made any public statement nor have I seen any statement. I've heard people say they recieved emails back but even the two emails I saw contradicted themselves. One reply stated you had to pay for buzzgrob, the big Mek stomp and then add 300 more points. The other said it was just a stompa and 300 points. And a third reply I've never seen claimed you just need to pay for buzzgrob and that 300 was a misprint and should be 880 as per apoc. This is about as clear as mud. That's three different supposed emails not even including the official 6th Ed update which is what ITC uses. At least that update is clear pay for buzzgrob and add 300 points for a big Mek stompa.
The one question I have for you is if fw has gone back and updated PDFs before because the used the wrong profiles why in the world haven't they gone back and changed the point cost on this PDF in over three years? It makes no sense.

The source of where the points discrepcies is from FW old facebook page, which you can't see anymore, but if you e-mail them about it they will tell you it should cost 800pts. Personally I've not been able to tell me how it breaks down. Because its supposed to be buzzgob+ his stompa. If you want to use Buzzgob stompa, you should check with TO before the event to see if they are going to allow it and how many point it is. Personally, the couple times i've played it, we've just gone with what the pdf says.

When I emailed them more than a year ago, they said buzzgob's Stompa upgrade was supposed to be 830 points, just like an ordinary big mek stompa, and that it was a typo. They also indicated that they might fix the pdf to fix the typo, but a month or so later I followed up with them, and they said something like, "That pdf is 3 Ork codexes, and 2 main rulebooks old, and you'll just have to wait until IA8 gets a rerelease, but you won't have to wait long". That was a year ago.

Hopefully its soon because FW has taken down both IA8 book and its PDF FAQ.

tag8833 wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:

gungo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
That's kinda homeruled cause FW clearly stated they underpriced it by 400 pts.

Define clearly because afaik they never made any public statement nor have I seen any statement. I've heard people say they recieved emails back but even the two emails I saw contradicted themselves. One reply stated you had to pay for buzzgrob, the big Mek stomp and then add 300 more points. The other said it was just a stompa and 300 points. And a third reply I've never seen claimed you just need to pay for buzzgrob and that 300 was a misprint and should be 880 as per apoc. This is about as clear as mud. That's three different supposed emails not even including the official 6th Ed update which is what ITC uses. At least that update is clear pay for buzzgrob and add 300 points for a big Mek stompa.
The one question I have for you is if fw has gone back and updated PDFs before because the used the wrong profiles why in the world haven't they gone back and changed the point cost on this PDF in over three years? It makes no sense.

The source of where the points discrepcies is from FW old facebook page, which you can't see anymore, but if you e-mail them about it they will tell you it should cost 800pts. Personally I've not been able to tell me how it breaks down. Because its supposed to be buzzgob+ his stompa. If you want to use Buzzgob stompa, you should check with TO before the event to see if they are going to allow it and how many point it is. Personally, the couple times i've played it, we've just gone with what the pdf says.

When I emailed them more than a year ago, they said buzzgob's Stompa upgrade was supposed to be 830 points, just like an ordinary big mek stompa, and that it was a typo. They also indicated that they might fix the pdf to fix the typo, but a month or so later I followed up with them, and they said something like, "That pdf is 3 Ork codexes, and 2 main rulebooks old, and you'll just have to wait until IA8 gets a rerelease, but you won't have to wait long". That was a year ago.

Someone said they recently received an email from them stating there is no known timeframe for IA8 and that a future IA book with Orks may come at a later time. The rumour reportedly is IA8 models hasn't sold as well as they liked Elysium models don't sell as well as krieg models except for the vulture gunship with punisher cannons, Raven guard stuff was not selling except for a few korvydae models, and most of the ork models wasn't a big seller except bikes and zhardsnark.

gungo wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
When I emailed them more than a year ago, they said buzzgob's Stompa upgrade was supposed to be 830 points, just like an ordinary big mek stompa, and that it was a typo. They also indicated that they might fix the pdf to fix the typo, but a month or so later I followed up with them, and they said something like, "That pdf is 3 Ork codexes, and 2 main rulebooks old, and you'll just have to wait until IA8 gets a rerelease, but you won't have to wait long". That was a year ago.

Someone said they recently received an email from them stating there is no known timeframe for IA8 and that a future IA book with Orks may come at a later time. The rumour reportedly is IA8 models hasn't sold as well as they liked Elysium models don't sell as well as krieg models except for the vulture gunship with punisher cannons, Raven guard stuff was not selling except for a few korvydae models, and most of the ork models wasn't a big seller except bikes and zhardsnark.

GW have shown time again that rules sell models.
Look at the Skyhammer, the fluff reasons why the models gain those bonuses is pitiful. They make no sense. But it's very effective, and devistator and assault marine sales went up.
Now no one wants to see Orks OP, but some things don't sell because the rules are just bad.