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NAVARRO wrote: Nope. In the mines the miners need their miner helms to protect from falling rocks and miner lights to see in the dark... Necromunda heads are fine, specially the fully enclosed ones.
Riiight, just like how spacemarines need a helmet because it would be frankly stupid to wear a massive armor to leave your most vulnerable spot open, right?
That example is a sergeant (the guys that love to not wear helmets) but ofc the standard dudes would have one and I actually quite like the Necromunda helmets, well, the version on the artwork at least, because the minies looks hilariously bad in comparison.
Well the question would be... what was done first? Was the cover art based on the sculpt or the sculpt based on the cover art? For all we know the original concept art may have been different and closer to the sculpt and then the cover art was done later, with artist liberties.
I know, I never managed to sculpt one mini close to my 2d art but then again I suck at it.
But yes primaris should have helmets too and sergeant extra Helmets like a Matryoshka doll XD XD
Speaking of helmets the Optional visors are news to me, just look at those sweet cheeks! I like them even more now.
The visors being separate is a big plus. I'd have preferred all heads to have both a mustache and a beard, not either or, but the heads work. The top one is the best IMO, but the mustache one is good too
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/27 21:44:16
I like how the guy's blogspot review sawed off the second gun barrel on all the weapons. Between that and the visors being optional, the kits looks a lot better than my initial impression.
KidCthulhu wrote: I like how the guy's blogspot review sawed off the second gun barrel on all the weapons. Between that and the visors being optional, the kits looks a lot better than my initial impression.
Ha, that's actually pretty funny. And looks pretty good.
I think I have enough dwarf runes from Fantasy to place over the secondary gun barrel to both cover up the spot and make it more dwarfy
This would have been a great chance for GW to create a new 'faction geometry'. Like, Tau armor plates and panels are unmistakable due to their specific geometries, same with Eldar an their fiddly bits. Orks have the square-edged and triangular aesthetic, and Mahrines are the round circly ones. Squats ought to have been obtuse angles and flat plates.
The guns are VERY much problematic. I totally agree that Ork weapons look more viable, which is just embarrasing.
And on the aspect of 'well can you really expect'...
Yes. YES. That's what Critique is FOR. When someone is doing art for fun, that's one thing. Who cares, hope they're having fun. Great. Fine. But when someone is being PAID to create a SPECIFIC PRODUCT for a company and further for the consumers of that product, they MUST be held to at least a certain minimum standard. And this is a case of the shown sculpts being of LOWER quality than prior sculpts, from a company who's ONLY saving grace is the supposed superiority of their sculpts and sprues. (Because it's certainly not in rules or customer service.)
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This is genuinely my favourite bit of a new release, especially Interesting ones, such as Squats returning to the fold.
And it’s seeing what others do with the models. Because this when we get a real idea of what the kit or kits can really do.
I genuinely don’t care what the next person might think of the kit or kits, because opinions are opinions, and someone not enjoying something doesn’t really impact the next person.
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I've had a couple collector models sitting around. I have a White Dwarf as a Techmarine, and the White Dwarf in marine Power armor. I'm hoping that the LoV will look enough like them so I can include them in my army, but how many people would consider it sacrilege to cut open those packages?
I’m probably in the vast minority but I greatly prefer the Necromunda Squats to the LoV troopers. Kinda wish I could just use the squats as the troop units for a LoV force instead but 8 to a box and likely the wrong basic weapons probably nixes that :( Too bad
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/28 08:16:11
John D Law wrote: I’m probably in the vast minority but I greatly prefer the Necromunda Squats to the LoV troopers. Kinda wish I could just use the squats as the troop units for a LoV force instead but 8 to a box and likely the wrong basic weapons probably nixes that :( Too bad
Feel like you are in the vast majority on the contrary. The Squats looks way more like what people wanted from a return of that faction as an army than the LoV will ever be.
John D Law wrote: I’m probably in the vast minority but I greatly prefer the Necromunda Squats to the LoV troopers. Kinda wish I could just use the squats as the troop units for a LoV force instead but 8 to a box and likely the wrong basic weapons probably nixes that :( Too bad
Feel like you are in the vast majority on the contrary. The Squats looks way more like what people wanted from a return of that faction as an army than the LoV will ever be.
I'm not sure about that being the majority, but I do get the impression a lot of people are unhappy with the lack of Dwarf theming present.The high-tech slightly classic sci-fi astronaut is an interesting direction to take the Leagues and by no means is that something that should be lost, but they are missing something ontop of the Astronaut theme to add a little bit more, whether that's the usual Dwarf aesthetics or something different to that.
The usual Dwarf stuff does seem to be what a lot want from them though and the Leagues are meant to be themed on that usual Dwarf style anyway. Whether you like it or think that's important to the archetype or not, they're going for the most well-known Dwarf theming involving runes, gold embellishments/decoration, the beards, geometric patterns, their faction logo and all that. That's evident in the artwork for the Votann, the art of the ship with the leader guy, the Exo-suit, the Bolter and the Banner on the Theyn; those all include Dwarf theming so it's part of the Leagues, as well as in their lore. They're stoic Hardy Space Miners who are skilled craftsmen with a martial society, they value their individuality because they're clones, they hold their ancestors in very high regard and worship the Votann as diety-like machines integral to their society, and they're proud of their heritage. They're Dwarfs.
But then that hasn't been factored into the Hernkin or Hearthkin or Ironkin, the Dwarf theming that should be present throughout their miniatures to at least some extent isn't there except for two very basic parts - the Theyn Banner, and the bolter (and seemingly some on the Exo-suit and leader, but those are elites/HQ so the effect is different to having it on the basic troops) but it isn't present throughout their range like it should be. There's almost nothing to link back to the Ancestors or Votann, they don't have runes or sigils forged onto their armour to show their heritage, there's no elaboration or patterns on their armour or weapons, not even a little. They haven't had sense of life and culture the Dwarf theme would give integrated into their miniatures overall and so something like the Theyn banner feels out of place. It's odd how so far only the bolter is the only weapon we've seen with any sort of decoration when theres been room of other stuff to include that sort of thing in places too.
I totally get not wanting them to go too far with it, something like Mantics Forgefathers where that part is pretty much the core theme of their look is a little boring I think. Grendlesen had the right amount with the Space Dwarf stuff - just a belt buckle, backpack icon, some beard decoration and something on his weapon. Even just including one or two of those aspects would have made the Leagues feel more Dwarfy and add something they're missing to show the heritage side of things on their actual miniatures overall. The Necrons and Genestealer cults have stuff in way of that, but a new army that by way of both the Dwarf Archetype and their lore you'd expect to have something like that, doesn't. It just leaves them looking a bit too basic and the very few things that are there feel like they've been put on as an afterthought rather than done in a way that feels like it fits properly.
Those just saying things like "It's good to change the archetype to make them more interesting! or "You just want them to be fantasy Dwarfs in space!"" are missing the point I think. Dwarf aspects and a new unique direction are not mutually exclusive, you can include keep them as the high-tech Astronauts and still have parts of that included in the same way as Kharadron and Lumineth went in a new direction - or in the say way some of their stuff clearly will be. It just isn't part of them overall even though it should be there because of their lore. It wouldn't even really matter if it was the typical Nordic theming or some other style anyway. They're just missing something to show what that part of the archetype and their lore represents - the culture, history and such. They should be a new direction on the classic theme, but so far their miniatures have been missing that and not really having much of what people like about Dwarfs included. They're been high-tech short astronauts with Dwarf lore, rather than High Tech Astronaut Space Dwarfs aesthetically. They don't need a huge change or to be "Fantasy Dwarfs in space" whatever that means, just small additions to implement what they should have / somewhat already have better than the 3 miniatures shown. The basic infantry of an army should be what showcases the factions core aesthetics overall to some extent as they're one of the most important parts, but these don't seem to represent that well outside of the high-tech astronaut part of the Leagues.
The Necromunda Squats have some of that that's missing from the Leagues and elements that just feel more suitable for Space Dwarfs; the boots that don't make their ankle proportions feel weird and the belt decoration, for example.
This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2022/06/28 14:35:35
This part for me is the main failing of the Votann design, it's the same mistake they made with the early Primaris where they thought what people wanted to marines to be was generic mass produced space soldier in generic gear instead of space crusader monk in relic gothic ornate armor. That's not what ANYONE wanted and it goes against the core principle of 40k.
It's the same thing happening again with the squat. The only reason they are suddenly randomly bringing them back is because it was on top of the player wishlist for decades now, so when was the time to add a new faction they went with it.
The problem is that they seem to have totally missed the mark on what people meant when they asked for squat. What people obviously meant was for space dwarfs, but for some reason GW decided to do its best to NOT deliver on that and just went with... welp "sci-fi astronaut" is the perfect way to put it and I'll quote myself from a couple of pages ago :
After thinking a bit more about it, I think one of the thing I like the least about thos votanns are the legs. Where on the squats the armored legs look great and help giving an armored look to the mini, the weld astronaut pant they gave to the votann just doesnt work, especially with how heavy the top armor look.
If you swapped the votann legs and belt for the squat's, the result would be way better.
I did a quick mockup of that, trying to bring more dwarfish vib to the Votann and I don't know about you, but I find the merging of both way more interesting.
The squat sergeant legs with the cloth on top of the legs looks ever better, it makes the thing look more, well, squatter.
Also painting some parts as brass goes a long way to tie the whole thing together
Still not amazing, but already way better imho.
Even if we ignore the painfully obvious lack dwarvish iconography (like rune gravings on the armors) the thing that really doesn't work here beside most of the faces are thos legs.
They are clearly meant to be "sci-fi astronaut" legs, but not only they don't work well with the head armor, making the whole thing look goofy but it's also very similar to a lot of other minies design like the genestealer cult (thos streaked kneepads in particular).
And sure, doing Space Kharadron Overlord would have been a bit too on the nose, but there's a middle ground between over the top dwarvish and just not dwarvish at all.
Even if they bring more of that dwarviness on the more elite units, that won't be good enough because what defines an army look is its basic infantry troop, not its elite choice.
The frustrating part here is the existence of thos Necromunda Squats. They feel like a salvaged early draft for the Votann, one that was way, WAY closer to what people wanted, but one that got discarded by some very stupid exec (probably the same one that thought astartes should be generic scifi space soldiers) in favor of something more """"original"""".
wonder if the necromunda squats slit helmets are calling back to this ancient rogue trader mini (image from Stuff of Legends) which is probably the first GW space dwarf
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/28 15:02:56
One of the earliest criticisms voiced when the first Squat model was shown off was that it looked like it belonged with Tau. That's an issue not just because the dwarf identity doesn't show, but because the lack thereof also makes it look like a part of an established army. That's not something a designer should want. Tau have the sleek, rounded sci-fi look covered at this point and if a new model looks like it's part of that army instead of having a recognizable identity of its own, I'd call that a problem with its design.
I can understand doing Necromunda Squats in such a way that they fit in with some of the Necromunda aesthetics and wouldn't look out of place next to Genestealer Cults models, because all of them are supposed to invoke that low level Imperial industrial setting they belong in. For the same reason I can understand not developing 40k Squats in a similar direction because they are supposed to be a faction of their own and specifically not connected to the Imperium, common ancestry notwithstanding. But to me they don't look like they have that identity of their own on their basic infantry. At least not to a large enough degree.
Although like I said before some of that is likely colored by my dislike for the studio paint scheme, and I like the helmeted egg armor look better than the bare headed one.
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wonder if the necromunda squats slit helmets are calling back to this ancient rogue trader mini (image from Stuff of Legends) which is probably the first GW space dwarf
From what I've seen a lot of things back then (outside of leaders and such) didn't have much iconography on the miniatures though, not just the Squats.
Still, for an army that's meant to have that importance of their heritage, ancestors, family connection etc are their lore, you'd expect something on even the basic infantry. Especially when the majority
Geifer wrote: One of the earliest criticisms voiced when the first Squat model was shown off was that it looked like it belonged with Tau. That's an issue not just because the dwarf identity doesn't show, but because the lack thereof also makes it look like a part of an established army. That's not something a designer should want. Tau have the sleek, rounded sci-fi look covered at this point and if a new model looks like it's part of that army instead of having a recognizable identity of its own, I'd call that a problem with its design.
This is part of the problem I have too. The lack of Dwarf iconography, or any, is something that not only affects how their lore is showcased through the miniatures, but also takes away from giving the army a cohesive, distinct theme that isn't present elsewhere. I've seen people compare them to Space Marines because of their rounded bulky armour, and Tau because of the sleek high-tech style - the Armoured Sci-f Astronaut Dwarfs I think is a cool direction, but they need more to them so they stand out and the lack of decoration and iconography makes that problem worse. Even more so when they've got things that aren't too dissimilar from the Imperium's look, like their Plasma weapons and that Plasma Sword wouldn't be out of place on a Primaris Marine.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/06/28 15:57:09
Togusa wrote: So basically when there is no news, y'all just sit around arguing about weapon ejection systems and visor placement?
And draw conclusions on miniature height based on pictures with different scales.
I missed that one. Is there a difference between the Necromunda ones and the LoV ones? When I played a little Necromunda back in March, something just really felt off about the scale to me. Couldn't put my finger on it, but it was weird.
The Necro minis tend to be on the larger end of the gw scale, being all essentially characters, but I was referring to just the pictures.
wonder if the necromunda squats slit helmets are calling back to this ancient rogue trader mini (image from Stuff of Legends) which is probably the first GW space dwarf
Personally I like the look of both the Necromunda squats and the Votann. Interestingly the artwork for the Votann gives off a more distinct vibe that doesn't completely translate onto the miniatures.
I don't really have the time or money to start a new army but if the Votann get rules for killteam then i'll pick up a box or two.
wonder if the necromunda squats slit helmets are calling back to this ancient rogue trader mini (image from Stuff of Legends) which is probably the first GW space dwarf
From what I've seen a lot of things back then (outside of leaders and such) didn't have much iconography on the miniatures though, not just the Squats.
Still, for an army that's meant to have that importance of their heritage, ancestors, family connection etc are their lore, you'd expect something on even the basic infantry. Especially when the majority
Geifer wrote: One of the earliest criticisms voiced when the first Squat model was shown off was that it looked like it belonged with Tau. That's an issue not just because the dwarf identity doesn't show, but because the lack thereof also makes it look like a part of an established army. That's not something a designer should want. Tau have the sleek, rounded sci-fi look covered at this point and if a new model looks like it's part of that army instead of having a recognizable identity of its own, I'd call that a problem with its design.
This is part of the problem I have too. The lack of Dwarf iconography, or any, is something that not only affects how their lore is showcased through the miniatures, but also takes away from giving the army a cohesive, distinct theme that isn't present elsewhere. I've seen people compare them to Space Marines because of their rounded bulky armour, and Tau because of the sleek high-tech style - the Armoured Sci-f Astronaut Dwarfs I think is a cool direction, but they need more to them so they stand out and the lack of decoration and iconography makes that problem worse. Even more so when they've got things that aren't too dissimilar from the Imperium's look, like their Plasma weapons and that Plasma Sword wouldn't be out of place on a Primaris Marine.
I’m glad they aren’t covered in dwarfish runes and stuff. That was never really part of the squat look, in the models or the artwork. It was there but in a very limited way. Dwarfs in space is not what’s needed really, times have moved on since we lazily ported fantasy tropes into 40k.
I’m hyped for votann but it’s a hard pass on the necromunda squats. The helmets look ridiculous, and barley like the old school ones at all. Can’t wait to see what votann character models look like.
wonder if the necromunda squats slit helmets are calling back to this ancient rogue trader mini (image from Stuff of Legends) which is probably the first GW space dwarf
From what I've seen a lot of things back then (outside of leaders and such) didn't have much iconography on the miniatures though, not just the Squats.
Still, for an army that's meant to have that importance of their heritage, ancestors, family connection etc are their lore, you'd expect something on even the basic infantry. Especially when the majority
Geifer wrote: One of the earliest criticisms voiced when the first Squat model was shown off was that it looked like it belonged with Tau. That's an issue not just because the dwarf identity doesn't show, but because the lack thereof also makes it look like a part of an established army. That's not something a designer should want. Tau have the sleek, rounded sci-fi look covered at this point and if a new model looks like it's part of that army instead of having a recognizable identity of its own, I'd call that a problem with its design.
This is part of the problem I have too. The lack of Dwarf iconography, or any, is something that not only affects how their lore is showcased through the miniatures, but also takes away from giving the army a cohesive, distinct theme that isn't present elsewhere. I've seen people compare them to Space Marines because of their rounded bulky armour, and Tau because of the sleek high-tech style - the Armoured Sci-f Astronaut Dwarfs I think is a cool direction, but they need more to them so they stand out and the lack of decoration and iconography makes that problem worse. Even more so when they've got things that aren't too dissimilar from the Imperium's look, like their Plasma weapons and that Plasma Sword wouldn't be out of place on a Primaris Marine.
I’m glad they aren’t covered in dwarfish runes and stuff. That was never really part of the squat look, in the models or the artwork. It was there but in a very limited way. Dwarfs in space is not what’s needed really, times have moved on since we lazily ported fantasy tropes into 40k.
I guess we then move forward to... making Mary Sue-esque factions that somehow simultaneously are buddy-buddy with the Imperium while keeping copious amount of extremely advanced, heretical xeno-technology, that they graciously gifted to the so-called "technologically-advanced" races to make inferior copies of, mass-produce Psyker clones, are incorruptible by Chaos, keep around fully sapient and sentient AI that has and will never cause a single problem, live in a idealistically egalitarian society even by modern day standards, when the life of every single person matters and everyone lives long, fulfilling lives because they were genetically engineered to be simultenously perfect and still completely individualistic, and keep literally all of this secret from everyone else while they keep playing them against each other.
We sure moved forward eh.
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Wha-Mu-077 wrote: fulfilling lives because they were genetically engineered to be simultenously perfect and still completely individualistic,
That part is the "best". It's the writers getting your cake and eating it too.
"Look we are very diverse, all skin color, gender and even robots! But they are also all """clones""" that have been specifically genetically engineered to apparently be on the level of an astartes!"
These guys aren't really Dwarfs in space, they are actually Lizardmen in space, a "races" of bio-engineered creatures automatically spawn by arcane machinery from a lost age of technology.
wonder if the necromunda squats slit helmets are calling back to this ancient rogue trader mini (image from Stuff of Legends) which is probably the first GW space dwarf
From what I've seen a lot of things back then (outside of leaders and such) didn't have much iconography on the miniatures though, not just the Squats.
Still, for an army that's meant to have that importance of their heritage, ancestors, family connection etc are their lore, you'd expect something on even the basic infantry. Especially when the majority
Geifer wrote: One of the earliest criticisms voiced when the first Squat model was shown off was that it looked like it belonged with Tau. That's an issue not just because the dwarf identity doesn't show, but because the lack thereof also makes it look like a part of an established army. That's not something a designer should want. Tau have the sleek, rounded sci-fi look covered at this point and if a new model looks like it's part of that army instead of having a recognizable identity of its own, I'd call that a problem with its design.
This is part of the problem I have too. The lack of Dwarf iconography, or any, is something that not only affects how their lore is showcased through the miniatures, but also takes away from giving the army a cohesive, distinct theme that isn't present elsewhere. I've seen people compare them to Space Marines because of their rounded bulky armour, and Tau because of the sleek high-tech style - the Armoured Sci-f Astronaut Dwarfs I think is a cool direction, but they need more to them so they stand out and the lack of decoration and iconography makes that problem worse. Even more so when they've got things that aren't too dissimilar from the Imperium's look, like their Plasma weapons and that Plasma Sword wouldn't be out of place on a Primaris Marine.
I’m glad they aren’t covered in dwarfish runes and stuff. That was never really part of the squat look, in the models or the artwork. It was there but in a very limited way. Dwarfs in space is not what’s needed really, times have moved on since we lazily ported fantasy tropes into 40k.
I’m hyped for votann but it’s a hard pass on the necromunda squats. The helmets look ridiculous, and barley like the old school ones at all. Can’t wait to see what votann character models look like.
....I didn't say to "cover them in dwarfish runes and stuff". If that's what you thought was being said then then you're really missing the point entirely.
This whole "You just want them to be fantasy Dwarfs In space!" that keeps getting repeated is just utterly absurd, especially as it never seems to consist of anything more than that. It would be nice if the points mentioned already and how the lack of that stuff affects them would be engaged with rather than just giving a vague dismissal without any elaboration in any way. What's wanted is a basic level of theming to show the lore on their models in the same way so many other armies have theirs, not that stuff plastered all over their miniatures to the point it becomes their core trait. Subtle bits of it tie their army together in a way that makes sense and to realize the lore they have via the models. Just going "Dwarfs in Space would be lazy!" comes across as if you have some baffling idea that wanting more Dwarfy-ness means something like wanting them to just take Dwarf Ironbreakers and just stick them in 40k when no, that isn't it in the slightest.
Are Mantics' Forgefathers "Just Fantasy Dwarfs in Space"? Are the Deep Rock Galactic Dwarfs just "Just Fantasy Dwarfs in Space"? Grendl Grendlsen? Hardcore Miniatures Original Squat inspired miniatures? Scibors Dwarves? Wargames Atlantic's Einherjar? The Original Squats? They all have Dwarf archetype inspired elements in their look. Are the Eldar Lazy for being "Elves in Space"? If you don't like the Dwarf archetype, then that's Fine, but if any level of inclusion of the Dwarf Archetype theming to you makes them " just Fantasy Dwarfs In space" then I guess the Leagues aren't going to be something you like much then - because as was mentioned already, they're undeniably "Dwarfs in Space" with both their lore and parts of their look we've seen elsewhere. What's wanted is for that to be better showcased on their core infantry in the same way as something like the Necromunda Ironheads or Grendl Grendlesen.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/28 21:20:28
Mentlegen324 wrote: This whole "You just want them to be fantasy Dwarfs In space!" that keeps getting repeated is just utterly absurd,
Yeah, the strawmaning on that point is getting really tiring ngl.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Subtle bits of it tie their army together in a way that makes sense and to realize the lore they have via the models.
That's the silliest part about how GW is going about it, so far the only "dwarvish" bit they gave to thos votann is that crest on the sergeant, and the fact that its not only the only piece of dwarvish element coupled with how STRONGLY dwarvish it is on a unit that has otherwise nothing dwarvish about it makes it comes of as painfully tacky.
It's as if you took a random fire warrior, and slapped on him a chaos skull rack, it just stick out like a sore thumb and do more harm than good to the unit overall coherence.
wonder if the necromunda squats slit helmets are calling back to this ancient rogue trader mini (image from Stuff of Legends) which is probably the first GW space dwarf
From what I've seen a lot of things back then (outside of leaders and such) didn't have much iconography on the miniatures though, not just the Squats.
Still, for an army that's meant to have that importance of their heritage, ancestors, family connection etc are their lore, you'd expect something on even the basic infantry. Especially when the majority
Geifer wrote: One of the earliest criticisms voiced when the first Squat model was shown off was that it looked like it belonged with Tau. That's an issue not just because the dwarf identity doesn't show, but because the lack thereof also makes it look like a part of an established army. That's not something a designer should want. Tau have the sleek, rounded sci-fi look covered at this point and if a new model looks like it's part of that army instead of having a recognizable identity of its own, I'd call that a problem with its design.
This is part of the problem I have too. The lack of Dwarf iconography, or any, is something that not only affects how their lore is showcased through the miniatures, but also takes away from giving the army a cohesive, distinct theme that isn't present elsewhere. I've seen people compare them to Space Marines because of their rounded bulky armour, and Tau because of the sleek high-tech style - the Armoured Sci-f Astronaut Dwarfs I think is a cool direction, but they need more to them so they stand out and the lack of decoration and iconography makes that problem worse. Even more so when they've got things that aren't too dissimilar from the Imperium's look, like their Plasma weapons and that Plasma Sword wouldn't be out of place on a Primaris Marine.
I’m glad they aren’t covered in dwarfish runes and stuff. That was never really part of the squat look, in the models or the artwork. It was there but in a very limited way. Dwarfs in space is not what’s needed really, times have moved on since we lazily ported fantasy tropes into 40k.
I’m hyped for votann but it’s a hard pass on the necromunda squats. The helmets look ridiculous, and barley like the old school ones at all. Can’t wait to see what votann character models look like.
....I didn't say to "cover them in dwarfish runes and stuff". If that's what you thought was being said then then you're really missing the point entirely.
This whole "You just want them to be fantasy Dwarfs In space!" that keeps getting repeated is just utterly absurd, especially as it never seems to consist of anything more than that. It would be nice if the points mentioned already and how the lack of that stuff affects them would be engaged with rather than just giving a vague dismissal without any elaboration in any way. What's wanted is a basic level of theming to show the lore on their models in the same way so many other armies have theirs, not that stuff plastered all over their miniatures to the point it becomes their core trait. Subtle bits of it tie their army together in a way that makes sense and to realize the lore they have via the models. Just going "Dwarfs in Space would be lazy!" comes across as if you have some baffling idea that wanting more Dwarfy-ness means something like wanting them to just take Dwarf Ironbreakers and just stick them in 40k when no, that isn't it in the slightest.
Are Mantics' Forgefathers "Just Fantasy Dwarfs in Space"? Are the Deep Rock Galactic Dwarfs just "Just Fantasy Dwarfs in Space"? Grendl Grendlsen? Hardcore Miniatures Original Squat inspired miniatures? Scibors Dwarves? Wargames Atlantic's Einherjar? The Original Squats? They all have Dwarf archetype inspired elements in their look. Are the Eldar Lazy for being "Elves in Space"? If you don't like the Dwarf archetype, then that's Fine, but if any level of inclusion of the Dwarf Archetype theming to you makes them " just Fantasy Dwarfs In space" then I guess the Leagues aren't going to be something you like much then - because as was mentioned already, they're undeniably "Dwarfs in Space" with both their lore and parts of their look we've seen elsewhere. What's wanted is for that to be better showcased on their core infantry in the same way as something like the Necromunda Ironheads or Grendl Grendlesen.
Wow, I haven’t been following this thread that closely and had no idea that it would be so triggering to say what I did. After the whole PL/points row I don’t have the energy for another argument.
I am just looking forward to this faction, I like the aesthetic, the fluff seems interesting and I am looking forward to more than just snippets of it and squats have long been a fave of mine.
Sorry they aren’t appearing to be to yours or others tastes. Bear in mind this is just the first wave, GW have form on adapting a new factions style quite quickly with future waves so you never know they might go more the way you want.
No insincerity here either, promise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/28 22:28:57
I realise people are enjoying having a moan, but most of you haven't really grasped the intent when it comes to the LoV visual design and why they have been shown they way they have been shown so far.
The Eldar is what GW has in mind when it comes to designing the LoV, that is, their own aesthetic that does not immediately scream elves! ELVES!, or in this case Dwarves! to anyone looking at it. The Eldar 'elves' aesthetic is very unique to warhammer 40k, that has value, its effectively its own brand, the Eldar feel distinct from typical elves.
The dwarf aesthetic should be subtle over the top of the underlying look and should be developed over years until it is its own distinct brand. The easy route is slapping a few dwarven hammers and dwarven belt buckles on them and calling it a day, the hard route is designing something that can stand on its own like the Eldar look can.
If I was trying to take my first steps down the hard route to having something like the Eldar but for Squats the very last thing I would want to do is ruin the first images shown to the world of this new brand aesthetic I'm trying to build by dumping dwarfy stuff all over it like giving them power hammers, or a dwarven belt buckle, or using nordic runes everywhere. Showing them with a sword and not a big power hammer was done very very intentionally.
I am sure you will be given the option of a dwarfy power hammer and dwarfy belt buckles at some point, but trying to achieve and present a brand look and image as distinct as the eldar are from elves is the current goal.
So far I think they are doing a good job. The helmets are distinct, the aesthetic feels like it holds its own and feels fresh. I do feel it is missing a little something, but I don't think its the soldiers shown, I think its the vehicles that have yet to be shown that will tie the range together. The Land Train and The Colossus are key. The Termite and the Goliath could be interesting possibilities too.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/28 22:31:35
derpherp wrote: I realise people are enjoying having a moan, but most of you haven't really grasped the intent when it comes to the LoV visual design and why they have been shown they way they have been shown so far.
The Eldar is what GW has in mind when it comes to designing the LoV, that is, their own aesthetic that does not immediately scream elves! ELVES!, or in this case Dwarves! to anyone looking at it. The Eldar 'elves' aesthetic is very unique to warhammer 40k, that has value, its effectively its own brand, the Eldar feel distinct from typical elves.
The dwarf aesthetic should be subtle over the top of the underlying look and should be developed over years until it is its own distinct brand. The easy route is slapping a few dwarven hammers and dwarven belt buckles on them and calling it a day, the hard route is designing something that can stand on its own like the Eldar look can.
If I was trying to take my first steps down the hard route to having something like the Eldar but for Squats the very last thing I would want to do is ruin the first images shown to the world of this new brand aesthetic I'm trying to build by dumping dwarfy stuff all over it like giving them power hammers, or a dwarven belt buckle, or using nordic runes everywhere. Showing them with a sword and not a big power hammer was done very very intentionally.
I am sure you will be given the option of a dwarfy power hammer and dwarfy belt buckles, but trying to achieve and present a brand look and image as distinct as the eldar are from elves is the current goal.
So far I think they are doing a good job. The helmets are distinct, the aesthetic feels like it holds its own and feels fresh. I do feel it is missing a little something, but I don't think its the soldiers shown, I think its the vehicles that have yet to be shown that will tie the range together. The Land Train and The Colossus are key. The Termite and the Goliath could be interesting possibilities too.
Yeah except the Votann don't even have a distinct aesthetic to themselves. They just look like a mix of T'au and GSC stuff with a few extremly dwarvish stuff randomly stapled on top.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/28 22:31:05
Yeah except the Votann don't even have a distinct aesthetic to themselves. They just look like a mix of T'au and GSC stuff with a few extremly dwarvish stuff randomly stapled on top.
That's your opinion, and you are welcome to it, but it is only an opinion and not a fact.
In my opinion they look very distinct. They feel more dark age of technology than anything current.
I feel like you have never seen UR-025 before when you say stuff like they look like the Tau...
They even have the same greenish white colour scheme as UR-025, the organically curved metal, the domed helmets, like.... *gestures broadly*
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/28 22:44:08
wonder if the necromunda squats slit helmets are calling back to this ancient rogue trader mini (image from Stuff of Legends) which is probably the first GW space dwarf
From what I've seen a lot of things back then (outside of leaders and such) didn't have much iconography on the miniatures though, not just the Squats.
Still, for an army that's meant to have that importance of their heritage, ancestors, family connection etc are their lore, you'd expect something on even the basic infantry. Especially when the majority
Geifer wrote: One of the earliest criticisms voiced when the first Squat model was shown off was that it looked like it belonged with Tau. That's an issue not just because the dwarf identity doesn't show, but because the lack thereof also makes it look like a part of an established army. That's not something a designer should want. Tau have the sleek, rounded sci-fi look covered at this point and if a new model looks like it's part of that army instead of having a recognizable identity of its own, I'd call that a problem with its design.
This is part of the problem I have too. The lack of Dwarf iconography, or any, is something that not only affects how their lore is showcased through the miniatures, but also takes away from giving the army a cohesive, distinct theme that isn't present elsewhere. I've seen people compare them to Space Marines because of their rounded bulky armour, and Tau because of the sleek high-tech style - the Armoured Sci-f Astronaut Dwarfs I think is a cool direction, but they need more to them so they stand out and the lack of decoration and iconography makes that problem worse. Even more so when they've got things that aren't too dissimilar from the Imperium's look, like their Plasma weapons and that Plasma Sword wouldn't be out of place on a Primaris Marine.
I’m glad they aren’t covered in dwarfish runes and stuff. That was never really part of the squat look, in the models or the artwork. It was there but in a very limited way. Dwarfs in space is not what’s needed really, times have moved on since we lazily ported fantasy tropes into 40k.
I’m hyped for votann but it’s a hard pass on the necromunda squats. The helmets look ridiculous, and barley like the old school ones at all. Can’t wait to see what votann character models look like.
....I didn't say to "cover them in dwarfish runes and stuff". If that's what you thought was being said then then you're really missing the point entirely.
This whole "You just want them to be fantasy Dwarfs In space!" that keeps getting repeated is just utterly absurd, especially as it never seems to consist of anything more than that. It would be nice if the points mentioned already and how the lack of that stuff affects them would be engaged with rather than just giving a vague dismissal without any elaboration in any way. What's wanted is a basic level of theming to show the lore on their models in the same way so many other armies have theirs, not that stuff plastered all over their miniatures to the point it becomes their core trait. Subtle bits of it tie their army together in a way that makes sense and to realize the lore they have via the models. Just going "Dwarfs in Space would be lazy!" comes across as if you have some baffling idea that wanting more Dwarfy-ness means something like wanting them to just take Dwarf Ironbreakers and just stick them in 40k when no, that isn't it in the slightest.
Are Mantics' Forgefathers "Just Fantasy Dwarfs in Space"? Are the Deep Rock Galactic Dwarfs just "Just Fantasy Dwarfs in Space"? Grendl Grendlsen? Hardcore Miniatures Original Squat inspired miniatures? Scibors Dwarves? Wargames Atlantic's Einherjar? The Original Squats? They all have Dwarf archetype inspired elements in their look. Are the Eldar Lazy for being "Elves in Space"? If you don't like the Dwarf archetype, then that's Fine, but if any level of inclusion of the Dwarf Archetype theming to you makes them " just Fantasy Dwarfs In space" then I guess the Leagues aren't going to be something you like much then - because as was mentioned already, they're undeniably "Dwarfs in Space" with both their lore and parts of their look we've seen elsewhere. What's wanted is for that to be better showcased on their core infantry in the same way as something like the Necromunda Ironheads or Grendl Grendlesen.
Wow, I haven’t been following this thread that closely and had no idea that it would be so triggering to say what I did. After the whole PL/points row I don’t have the energy for another argument.
I am just looking forward to this faction, I like the aesthetic, the fluff seems interesting and I am looking forward to more than just snippets of it and squats have long been a fave of mine.
Sorry they aren’t appearing to be to yours or others tastes. Bear in mind this is just the first wave, GW have form on adapting a new factions style quite quickly with future waves so you never know they might go more the way you want.
No insincerity here either, promise.
You haven't engaged with any of the points raised or seemingly read them, as it has just been said how they aren't what YOU want from them because they're evidently dwarfs in space which you don't want. To ignore all that entirely and just go "Oh they aren't what you want, sorry!" comes across as disingenuous.
derpherp wrote: I realise people are enjoying having a moan, but most of you haven't really grasped the intent when it comes to the LoV visual design and why they have been shown they way they have been shown so far.
The dwarf aesthetic should be subtle over the top of the underlying look and should be developed over years until it is its own distinct brand. The easy route is slapping a few dwarven hammers and dwarven belt buckles on them and calling it a day, the hard route is designing something that can stand on its own like the Eldar look can.
If I was trying to take my first steps down the hard route to having something like the Eldar but for Squats the very last thing I would want to do is ruin the first images shown to the world of this new brand aesthetic I'm trying to build by dumping dwarfy stuff all over it like giving them power hammers, or a dwarven belt buckle, or using nordic runes everywhere. Showing them with a sword and not a big power hammer was done very very intentionally.
I am sure you will be given the option of a dwarfy power hammer and dwarfy belt buckles at some point, but trying to achieve and present a brand look and image as distinct as the eldar are from elves is the current goal.
Eldar aren't really "distinct from Elves" though. They're a sci-fi version of the Elf Archetype which involves curved, sleek, elegant designs. They're broadly in line with what you'd expect of an Elf in Space.
Regardless of that it's strange how this keeps getting claimed as things like "You want Runes and Nordic stuff all over and fantasy Dwarf everything in place of what they have already!" which is missing the point entirely and not at all what has been said. Dwarf theming does not in any way mean they have to take away from the DAoT Armoured Astronaut look, especially as they have some aspects of it already. What they don't have is it done in a way that feels natural. The Dwarf Aesthetic should be integrated throughout their model line or else it feels jarring and out of place, like the Theyn Banner feels randomly stuck on. Grendlesen and the Ironheads have it to a subtle level, that sort of small amount ontop of - not instead of - what the Leagues have is what's lacking for their basic infantry, and it matters especially on the basic infantry because that's the core of their model line.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/28 23:07:10
wonder if the necromunda squats slit helmets are calling back to this ancient rogue trader mini (image from Stuff of Legends) which is probably the first GW space dwarf
From what I've seen a lot of things back then (outside of leaders and such) didn't have much iconography on the miniatures though, not just the Squats.
Still, for an army that's meant to have that importance of their heritage, ancestors, family connection etc are their lore, you'd expect something on even the basic infantry. Especially when the majority
Geifer wrote: One of the earliest criticisms voiced when the first Squat model was shown off was that it looked like it belonged with Tau. That's an issue not just because the dwarf identity doesn't show, but because the lack thereof also makes it look like a part of an established army. That's not something a designer should want. Tau have the sleek, rounded sci-fi look covered at this point and if a new model looks like it's part of that army instead of having a recognizable identity of its own, I'd call that a problem with its design.
This is part of the problem I have too. The lack of Dwarf iconography, or any, is something that not only affects how their lore is showcased through the miniatures, but also takes away from giving the army a cohesive, distinct theme that isn't present elsewhere. I've seen people compare them to Space Marines because of their rounded bulky armour, and Tau because of the sleek high-tech style - the Armoured Sci-f Astronaut Dwarfs I think is a cool direction, but they need more to them so they stand out and the lack of decoration and iconography makes that problem worse. Even more so when they've got things that aren't too dissimilar from the Imperium's look, like their Plasma weapons and that Plasma Sword wouldn't be out of place on a Primaris Marine.
I’m glad they aren’t covered in dwarfish runes and stuff. That was never really part of the squat look, in the models or the artwork. It was there but in a very limited way. Dwarfs in space is not what’s needed really, times have moved on since we lazily ported fantasy tropes into 40k.
I’m hyped for votann but it’s a hard pass on the necromunda squats. The helmets look ridiculous, and barley like the old school ones at all. Can’t wait to see what votann character models look like.
....I didn't say to "cover them in dwarfish runes and stuff". If that's what you thought was being said then then you're really missing the point entirely.
This whole "You just want them to be fantasy Dwarfs In space!" that keeps getting repeated is just utterly absurd, especially as it never seems to consist of anything more than that. It would be nice if the points mentioned already and how the lack of that stuff affects them would be engaged with rather than just giving a vague dismissal without any elaboration in any way. What's wanted is a basic level of theming to show the lore on their models in the same way so many other armies have theirs, not that stuff plastered all over their miniatures to the point it becomes their core trait. Subtle bits of it tie their army together in a way that makes sense and to realize the lore they have via the models. Just going "Dwarfs in Space would be lazy!" comes across as if you have some baffling idea that wanting more Dwarfy-ness means something like wanting them to just take Dwarf Ironbreakers and just stick them in 40k when no, that isn't it in the slightest.
Are Mantics' Forgefathers "Just Fantasy Dwarfs in Space"? Are the Deep Rock Galactic Dwarfs just "Just Fantasy Dwarfs in Space"? Grendl Grendlsen? Hardcore Miniatures Original Squat inspired miniatures? Scibors Dwarves? Wargames Atlantic's Einherjar? The Original Squats? They all have Dwarf archetype inspired elements in their look. Are the Eldar Lazy for being "Elves in Space"? If you don't like the Dwarf archetype, then that's Fine, but if any level of inclusion of the Dwarf Archetype theming to you makes them " just Fantasy Dwarfs In space" then I guess the Leagues aren't going to be something you like much then - because as was mentioned already, they're undeniably "Dwarfs in Space" with both their lore and parts of their look we've seen elsewhere. What's wanted is for that to be better showcased on their core infantry in the same way as something like the Necromunda Ironheads or Grendl Grendlesen.
Wow, I haven’t been following this thread that closely and had no idea that it would be so triggering to say what I did. After the whole PL/points row I don’t have the energy for another argument.
I am just looking forward to this faction, I like the aesthetic, the fluff seems interesting and I am looking forward to more than just snippets of it and squats have long been a fave of mine.
Sorry they aren’t appearing to be to yours or others tastes. Bear in mind this is just the first wave, GW have form on adapting a new factions style quite quickly with future waves so you never know they might go more the way you want.
No insincerity here either, promise.
You haven't engaged with any of the points raised or seemingly read them, as it has just been said how they aren't what YOU want from them because they're evidently dwarfs in space which you don't want. To ignore all that entirely and just go "Oh they aren't what you want, sorry!" comes across as disingenuous.
derpherp wrote: I realise people are enjoying having a moan, but most of you haven't really grasped the intent when it comes to the LoV visual design and why they have been shown they way they have been shown so far.
The dwarf aesthetic should be subtle over the top of the underlying look and should be developed over years until it is its own distinct brand. The easy route is slapping a few dwarven hammers and dwarven belt buckles on them and calling it a day, the hard route is designing something that can stand on its own like the Eldar look can.
If I was trying to take my first steps down the hard route to having something like the Eldar but for Squats the very last thing I would want to do is ruin the first images shown to the world of this new brand aesthetic I'm trying to build by dumping dwarfy stuff all over it like giving them power hammers, or a dwarven belt buckle, or using nordic runes everywhere. Showing them with a sword and not a big power hammer was done very very intentionally.
I am sure you will be given the option of a dwarfy power hammer and dwarfy belt buckles at some point, but trying to achieve and present a brand look and image as distinct as the eldar are from elves is the current goal.
Eldar aren't really "distinct from Elves" though. They're a sci-fi version of the Elf Archetype which involves curved, sleek, elegant designs. They're broadly in line with what you'd expect of an Elf in Space.
Regardless of that it's strange how this keeps getting claimed as things like "You want Runes and Nordic stuff all over and fantasy Dwarf everything in place of what they have already!" which is missing the point entirely and not at all what has been said. Dwarf theming does not in any way mean they have to take away from the DAoT Armoured Astronaut look, especially as they have some aspects of it already. What they don't have is it done in a way that feels natural. The Dwarf Aesthetic should be integrated throughout their model line or else it feels jarring and out of place, like the Theyn Banner feels randomly stuck on. Grendlesen and the Ironheads have it to a subtle level, that sort of small amount ontop of - not instead of - what the Leagues have is what's lacking for their basic infantry, and it matters especially on the basic infantry because that's the core of their model line.
It’s not meant to, sorry. Please don’t read more into than that, I did not realise what I was wading into and am wholeheartedly back tracking. If you don’t want to accept that then that’s fine. As you were, pretend I was never here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/28 23:15:20
Eldar aren't really "distinct from Elves" though. They're a sci-fi version of the Elf Archetype which involves curved, sleek, elegant designs. They're broadly in line with what you'd expect of an Elf Aesthetic in Space.
Regardless of that it's strange how this keeps getting claimed as things like "You want Runes all over and fantasy Dwarf everything in place of what they have!" which is missing the point entirely. Dwarf theming does not in any way mean they have to take away from the DAoT Armoured Astronaut look, especially as they have some aspects of it already. What they don't have is it done in a way that feels natural. The Dwarf Aesthetic should be integrated throughout their model line or else it feels jarring and out of place. Like the Theyn Banner feels randomly stuck on.
If I knew nothing about 40k and individually saw a helmeted eldar, or an eldar tank, or an eldar titan I would not immediately think elves. I would very likely think asian influence first well before elven influence because I wouldnt be aware they aren't human. Asian influence isn't exactly typical tolkien mate.
Literally in this thread someone photoshopped a cliche hammer and a dwarven belt buckle onto a squat lmao.
The Votann have one rune icon logo on their right shoulders. They are short. They all wear tool belts as a natural nod to dwarven craftsmanship. Their guns have one gold rune marked on them.
These are good and cleverly made dwarven nods. It has just the right amount of runes.
Dwarven belt buckles and dwarven hammers are crude in comparison. They beat you over the head and scream dwarf. Sorry but they just do. They are bad for this presentation's intention.
How many more runes do you want to add? I'm sure there will be stickers that come with the kit to add more to them if you care that much, but for this presentation in which they wanted to avoid screaming dwarf! they picked the right amount of runes.
I think they are nailing the LoV to be honest, the creative director behind them has clearly put an incredible amount of thought into what they want squats to become and is handling them better than anything GW has done in a long time. As long as the vehicles yet to be revealed are at similar high standards then GW might pull of one of its best faction introductions ever.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/28 23:19:49
