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I think I've just struck upon something...

When I first joined, Trenchraider was asking about limited recasting of old, no longer available models for conversion purposes. The usual black, white and grey opinions were offered around....

And it's taken me until now to have this idea. If you have some older models you would like more of, and wish to do so for *personal* use only (not to sell on), would it be morally acceptable/justifiable to buy new metal GW models, and melt them down to form your new casts of old models. You see, here, GW have received their due (you effectivly bought the metal off them) and you get the extra models you wanted.

I know it doesn't make it suddenly legal or right, but I think it's pretty solid in terms of morality.

I am sure its still illegal. Prime example is photgraphs. Say you want to scan in grandpa's old WWII photo's to save on a CD as they are getting old and faded. Now g-pa's been gone for a few years...This is illegal. The origional owner MUST give consent otherwise you just broke the law. Now with photography there is a statute of limitations that effectively states that anything before 1934 can be copied without any infringement. I am quite sure that miniature casting it the same way.


BUT - DVD's are a good example for a pro in your favor. You are legally allowed (in the U.S. anywho) to make a single "backup" copy of every single DVD released in the US. It must stay on your property and not distributed in any way. So there might be a clause like this for you to look at. They ARE for personal use.

*edit* Oh...and you gotta own the DVD first before you do the "backup"....Oh and I need spell check for dakka installed ASAP...lol

But this is a different kettle of fish altogether. I'm not debating it's legality. It is still infringement of copyright and still cannot come under 'fair usage'.

BUT, if you are really unable to get hold of what you want, either from GW direct or off Ebay, then at least you have paid GW their money, rather than just take it for free.

Why not just contact GW directly and ask to see if they'll let you pay them a licensing fee
in order to recast out of print miniatures?

Thats certainly one way I suppose, and certainly a good step to take!

...Because, either, GW will refuse to let you or they will want such an outrageous sum that you and your 4 or 5 closest friends combined probably couldn't come up with the money.
More than likely, however, they'll just refuse.

Your initial idea for recasting is still illegal, but (IMO), it takes the morality issue off of the table.

Of course, considering the cost of metal GW models now days... LOL... The licensing fee might not be THAT bad. : )

Eric

Is not that bad really, all things considered. Certainly, the move from Blister to Box has taken them down a little bit!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:BUT, if you are really unable to get hold of what you want, either from GW direct or off Ebay, then at least you have paid GW their money, rather than just take it for free.

Ok..I see your question now. Its not a legal thing its a moral thing. You have exhausted every LEGAL avenue to aquire as many figs as you would need but cant get enough. I personally would not mind if I was playing you and you told me this. A lot of the old stuff is VERY hard to come by. Especially in bulk. Now if you took this same army to a tournament I can see some questions being raised.

I myself have thought about doing what your talking about. Squats. I buy them when I can find them (or they are not going for an astronomical price) but I will NEVER get enough to field a "counts as" IG army. EVER. And I am sorry...but thease convereted Fantasy dwarves just don't cut it with someone (myself) who actually played Squats in the RT era. I could never take this army to a tourney and the only one who would get any satisfaction out of this army would be me. What and who would I be hurting if I recast some of these?

I say go for it. Who would you offend if you did, and if someone were to "tattle" on you the will probably first hit you with a cease and desist order. So you have to destroy $60 and 30 minutes worth of work if this happens. If you were to try and collect all actual mini's that could take YEARS...

malfred wrote:Why not just contact GW directly and ask to see if they'll let you pay them a licensing fee
in order to recast out of print miniatures?

If GW were smart they would offer license packages to re-cast specific amounts of out of print miniatures.

Or, they could just do limited edition re-releases as an annual thing to perk up off-season sales.

For example, if GW said:

In March, we're going to recast RT-era Eldar infantry at $XX per model. Prepay order by Feb 15, delivery starts Mar 15, finishes by Apr 15.

GW could do the deal as a fixed run, make a few bucks from the old catalog, without obligating themselves to keep RT-era Eldar in stock past Apr 15.

The knock-on advantage is huge, as it's a GW-exclusive that drives GW online ordering.

How about if you scraped together all your flash and tabs to do this. I'm in total agreement with Chaosdave.

If it's an out of production fig, then I don't personally see a problem with casting em as you're unable to buy em. Casting current stuff however would be a different issue IMHO.

I think that recasting miniatures is bad for the collectors' market. A lot of people pay huge sums to get OP miniatures, and by producing more of them you throw the market into confusion. Nobody know if they're buying a real Citadel miniature or a cheap, poorly-made knock-off.

Promising not to distribute them is all well and good, but what happens when you die of lead poisoning and your grieving wife sells your collection on eBay? Bad things; that's what.

Pariah Press wrote: Nobody know if they're buying a real miniature or a poorly-made Citadel recast.

There. fixed your quote.

Having been around this scene for several decades, and having done my own casting (professionally) - a well made recast is indistinguishable from the original.
I've seen newer GW releases of oop castings with casting flaws that would make even FW blush. These were blister packed, and on sale from a GW store, fresh out of the shipping cartons, and can't be any better authenticated without a signed affadavit from GW Notts themselves.

These days, you're more likely to die from antimony or bismuth poisoning. Both are at least as toxic as lead.

All of my metal offcuts and bits I don't need go into a crucible so they can meet mr flamey. What I choose to do next will remain unsaid.

It's funny. I wasn't involved in wargaming "back in the day," but I rather suspect that recasting was very common during the days when all there was was historicals. Could be wrong, of course...

Personally, I find the collecting and converting aspect of the hobby (and the gaming) to be the most rewarding. Casting up a bunch of identical models doesn't interest me.

Legality and morality are interesting concepts. Personally I find a company charging £10 for a single 1 inch tall metal model of a Space Marine and getting kids hooked into a spiral of spending lots more and more money on less and less product to be totally immoral, even though its totally legal...

Now if GW were a nice fluffy bunny of a company and offered what I considered to be really good value for money, then I would consider someone ripping them off to be morally problematic. As it stands though I find the notion of recasting GW's metals, even current ones, to be the moral equivalent of mugging a bank robber. Its something that doesn't cause me a moment's quandary, although I wouldn't do it myself.

The only concerns I have with recasting are the practicalities. The ethics for me are just not an issue.

I really think people trouble themselves far too much with this stuff, lets look at the reality of the situation. You're still supporting the company over all, you're not costing them a penny as you're reproducing stuff they're not going to touch. And you're not intending to profit from them in any way, nor take profit from them.

The only people who could reasonably complain are the collectors trying to get a high price, and if you're not distributing the figures, then you're not actually diluting the collectors market. I have heard the line of reasoning that by recasting the figures you're taking yourself out of the market for buying and that potentially that means the collectors have one less customer, but if you had no intention of paying their prices in the first place they were never going to see your money. Also, genuine collectors will want the genuine article, so your recasts are of no interest to the high end collectable market, and nor should you attempt to sell them there.

All these threads do is draw attention to people. It doesn't matter how many times it's discussed, it's still technically illegal. But it's not worth getting into a twist about as long as you concern only yourself with it, you do it in private and in a reasonable manner which is not designed to profit.

@Pariah Press: I starte with Prince August napoleonics. You bought a cast and the mould and were encouraged to cast your own (why have the moulds available otherwise?). Most of the napoleonic players back then would cast their own. Of course, this was part of the PA / consumer agreement.

I've seen entire waterloo battlefields done with a handful of purchased models. Once you have those skills, you don't just forget them because company X doesn't like you doing it.

I guess, if you *really* like the OOP RT-era Ogryns and bought modern Ogryns to melt and recast back into Ogryns. You're buying a GW Ogryn to convert into an GW Ogryn. So on net, GW is getting new sales at the expense of the "collectors".

Nearly every company tries to find a way to screw the secondhand market, so I suppose GW wouldn't have much of an issue with it.

Although, technically, yeah, you're making unlicensed copies...

You have a better shot at trying to find the minis second hand (as in lower costs, either from GW or your lawyer if GW finds out) at places such as eBay or whatever than re-casting them or buying them from GW.

I think the problem lies in that GW has NOT recieved their "due". You purchased the new models. GW sold them to you. However, it is not the physical models that are protected by their legal terminators, it is the IP. Regardless of the media you recast in, or how OOP the mini, GW still regards you as violating their IP. I believe that there are IP attornies on this site who would back that up. I have no interest in asking them, since they prob. get quizzed on it by every swingin richard wanting to partake of the recasting fruit.

I tell you why I do not recast. Because it deprives stan of money. Stan has a great place where we all play our stupid little toy soldier games that we love so much. Stan does not judge on paint. He does not judge hardly at all, except in a tourney on rules questions. In an average month, I don't even pay for his water bill. But I pay what I can. To say thanks.

chromedog wrote:@Pariah Press: I starte with Prince August napoleonics. You bought a cast and the mould and were encouraged to cast your own (why have the moulds available otherwise?). Most of the napoleonic players back then would cast their own. Of course, this was part of the PA / consumer agreement.

I've seen entire waterloo battlefields done with a handful of purchased models. Once you have those skills, you don't just forget them because company X doesn't like you doing it.

Yeah, I figured it was something like that. I guess there's a whole "old-school wargaming culture" that thinks nothing of recasting; it's just how armies are made.

In Canada you can copy as much as you want, as long as you own the original model. You however cannot sell your copies. You can give them away but the person you gave them too can not give them away. They must stay in their possession or be returned to you. If they give it away it becomes illegal with a maximum jail term of 5 years.

You guys. Its not that big of a deal. If you aren't selling them you should have NO moral concerns what so ever. It's a GAME. Once there is paint on the models who CARES how it got there.

It sounds good. Too good. Must be illegal.

I would call on all the potential recasters reading this thread with no doubt baited breath. Here is my advice into the bottomless infinity of the net:

Make your call. Either ante up and get into the recasting game, or do not. But do not try to delude yourself in what you are doing, either way you go.