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Well look at that, 2 more major tournaments and daemons do well yet again. Winning the ardboyz and taking 3rd in the baltimore gt. How much longer is it going to take for people to see that the army is competitive and playable at a high level. Take note, Daemons are here to stay.

haha aslong as i'm not around to purge you!
Grey Knights ftw. I nearly made my friend fight me the other day haha.
No corruption shall blemish our Galaxy, no Immaterial Fiend shall be spared, No Malevont Spirit will oppose us, no Creation of Sin shall survive.
please do encourage Daemons they are amazing! haha

"If I determine the enemy's disposition of forces while I have no perceptible form, I can concentrate my forces while the enemy is fragmented. The pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless: if it is formless, then even the deepest spy cannot discern it nor the wise make plans against it. "
Sun Tzu
"The Art of War"
(from SMAC)
(with Without Number vs. Grey Knights for the tie)

Haha...

word...

Somnicide and I have been pretty much screaming at the top of our lungs putting up bateps and breaking down games and unit by unit analysis on demons for months. There has always been a camp on the net, that actually played, and didn't just sit on a couch and theory out games, that saw demons for what they were.

After vegas best general, and like 3 or 4 demons on the top 8 tables for game 5, we got a little bit of high ground. After Chicago, with another very strong demon performance (albeit with a low turnout at the tourney) We gained a little bit more...

Now the results for both Ard boys and GT baltimore come in with demons winning/putting up strong battle points? It's really over for the naysayers... The "need to play with 5th edition lists to beat them" or the "too random to be a serious contender", "only good at beating up on space marines" "don't have enough anti-tank" can now be universally answered with... "scoreboard"

No they don't win 100% of their games, no they aren't as point and click friendly as orks, no they aren't as matchup consistent as chaos space marines... But they've got the speed/hitting power/survivability to be considered a TOP tier list. And anyone who disagrees is arguing against results, not opinions.

I'm pretty sure you've been in on a lot of these "demons suck" internet battles Tortuga, doesn't it feel good now that the dust is about to settle on such a frustrating topic?

I think the biggest contibuting factor to the nay opinons (which I held for my first few battles against them as well) is that there is so much choice in the codex that it is easy to put random things on the table with no plan.

Many demon players already had a smatteering of demons from fantasy or 40k. They added up their points and put them on the table. No support for each other, no evaluation of what their role in the battle would be ... just here's my 1500 points of randomly arriving random demon untis. This is the kind of thing that led to the dismissive behavior of: You put half your units down I use my whole army to shoot it off the board. Rinse repeat. Also, some of the better models like bloodcrushers are expensive and it took a little while for people to consider alternatives and /or afford the models.

Now some time has passed and people have begun buying the codex, reading it, looking at the options and saying "hmmm fateweaver supporting bloodcrushers ... I think this could be a good combo... " (and other thoughts like that) they are going out and buying the models based on their plan and putting them on the table with the knowledge of how they interact and what they are going to do with them.

Once you play against a good demon list you won't be sitting in the nay camp anymore. You may not think they are the best army ever, but you will respect them more and see that they can work competitivly. They can still let you down due to die rolls a little more than an army you have full control over, but that is more of a play preference issue.

Meph

The virtue of a single unit of 14 plague bearers with an icon in any demon army becomes apparent.
Icon + deep strike = your monstrous creatures are everywhere at once.
It's pretty, so so prehteh
but then again, I'm a fan of the scalpel.
I wonder when Gift + Hit & Run will become popular...

If you are allowed to deploy according to mission rules instead of the demon book, then yes.. demons is the frigging A-bomb. (like it was at ardboys apperently)

well that dawn of war ard boyz question again. shoulnt one just walk thier demons on the board first turn that are not in reserve.

no their deployment rules supercede mission deployment rules it says so in the daemon codex. it says daemons NEVER deploy as normal and everything arrives via deep strike. and the half you don't get goes into reserves and arrives via deep strike.

also during dawn of war anything that walks onto the table is NOT in reserve (look in the rule book under dawn of war scenario)

If you are allowed to deploy according to mission rules instead of the demon book, then yes

Then again that was only one of the top showings and it was a one off galdiator torunament. sadly it will come up anytime someone says daemons do well and all the other evidence that it does fine in a normal tournament gets ignored.

At the same time, drop pod space marines did great at first, then they dropped off the top tier list. We shall if daemons run the same course or not.

I was going to build a daemon army until Jervis's comments about the tournament scene, then I decided I'd be better off spending on other things because my vision of the game is drastically different to GWs.

But it was obvious from my initial look that they're not bad, as long as you're not playing mono god. Bloodcrushers and flamers are awesome, plague bearers are awesome, DPs and Soulgrinders are awesome. The weak link is FA, didn't see much worth taking in there.

Da Boss wrote:The weak link is FA, didn't see much worth taking in there.

True, but then, for almost every 40k book out there, fast attack is terrible.

With the exception of a couple books that were written in 3rd edition, fast attack has been the suckers choice for about 2 years for all armies.

Good rule of thumb, stick with elites and heavy support, with just enough troops to get by...

Seekers are actually good.

umm you do realize screamers are awesome, and seekers can be very good, assault marines are good, everybody used tornadoes until 5th came out, hellhounds are abundant, warpspiders are used, pathfinders in a tau army, grey knight teleport squads, raveners see much use in nids, seraphim for the sisters are widely used. so im confused why you think fast attack doesn't get used?


in the daemon army I actually don't like the heavy support section at all, if ever there was a weak section in that book it's there

How can you possibly say the section with Soulgrinders and Daemon Princes is the weak one? ;-)

How do you use your screamers? I have tried large units and small ones and they always break my heart. The inability to run and spread out when they show up, the fact that in doing their supposed job (killing vehicles) they usually need 6s to hit with a single attack each.

I have really tried to make them work, but I guess they just don't mesh with my style.

I think the daemons are up there since no one knows how to play against them yet. I tabled my opponent except for a soul grinder that I couldn't get to (dan liswood) the guy that took best general at Vegas with only losing 7 models....

Tortuga932 wrote:umm you do realize screamers are awesome, and seekers can be very good, assault marines are good, everybody used tornadoes until 5th came out, hellhounds are abundant, warpspiders are used, pathfinders in a tau army, grey knight teleport squads, raveners see much use in nids, seraphim for the sisters are widely used. so im confused why you think fast attack doesn't get used?


in the daemon army I actually don't like the heavy support section at all, if ever there was a weak section in that book it's there

"umm"

screamers are beyond terrible....

seekers are decent. but not as good as fiends. Seekers get taken once my 3 elites and 3 heavies are burned. or if I'm playing for fun.

assault marines are NOT good.

everybody used tornados until 5th came out? Well 5th is still out right?

Hellhounds and necron destroyers were the two exceptions that i clearly made. 3rd edition codecies. Will you see hellhounds in anyones list when they can take 9 russes? Nope.

warp spiders are NOT used in tourney armies.

pathfinders are not used in the top builds. people get markerlights from fire warriors and stealth teams nowadays. Hammerheads broadsides and crisis suits have been and will always be better spent points.

Grey Knight teleport squads? You've got to be kidding me!

singleton raveners went out when kill points came in. Another 5th ed. change.

Seraphim are not used in top builds... you either see 3x exorcist with chimera/immolator support with shooty inquisitors, or you see immolator spam.


Just because people use fast attack choices at a game store does not mean they are "used by the pros". The combination of kill points and troop only scoring just sent most all fast attack back to the figure case. When you play 2500 point games, fast attack becomes an acceptable investment. Since you'll likely blow out your elites and heavy support.

But at smaller games like 1750, the way elites combine great offensive capabilities with excellent survivability throughout every book, coupled with heavy supports access to large blast markers, and/or hard edged survivability, means that flimsy stuff that isn't hitting any harder than an elites choice and isn't scoring just isn't going to make the cut.


And heavy support in a demon army is no good? Come on now!

Tortuga932 wrote:umm you do realize screamers are awesome, and seekers can be very good, assault marines are good, everybody used tornadoes until 5th came out, hellhounds are abundant, warpspiders are used, pathfinders in a tau army, grey knight teleport squads, raveners see much use in nids, seraphim for the sisters are widely used. so im confused why you think fast attack doesn't get used?


in the daemon army I actually don't like the heavy support section at all, if ever there was a weak section in that book it's there

hehe screamers are expensive flying melta bombs who suck at everything but dealing with non-weaponskill Vehicles...

seekers are decent... but not as good as just taking daemonettes who are cheaper/scoring and do basically the same thing with one less attack....

hmm AND the seekers have rending which can take down armor just as well as "warp jaws"


I do agree that hell hounds are good and lots of sister players use seraphim... I have to go ahead and disagree with greyknight teleport squads tho as... just why!? 275pts base for 10 stormbolters when you DS in? then get shot to pieces by template weapons as you are bunched up? You're much better off being spread out.

Shep wrote:
Seraphim are not used in top builds... you either see 3x exorcist with chimera/immolator support with shooty inquisitors, or you see immolator spam.

I agree with you. But I was table 2 last round at the Baltimore GT with a "non top" list. No seraphim mind you... but I also didn't have Chimeras or immolators. But you did indeed see 3 exorcists if you looked at my list

Seraphim are still good... but not at 1750 pts or pretty much anything below 2000pts now with 5th ed. OVER 2000pts the Seraphim can fill a very much needed role of "tie up the other guy" for a turn or 2 while you position yourself to wipe out his harder stuff with your shooting.

Somnicide, add me to the list of Daemon advocates. I feel like I've done my part as well...

And Screamers have been relegated to my display shelf. :(

9 Screamers = 135 points
1 Soul Grinder = 135 points.

I know what I'm taking.

Just to chime in further defense of Necron (3rd ed.).
Scarabs are awesome (with disruptor fields).
There is nothing like neutering a land raider with 96 points of un-tank-shock-able hover-bugs

- hover-bugs are hover

frgsinwntr wrote:

I do agree that hell hounds are good and lots of sister players use seraphim... I have to go ahead and disagree with greyknight teleport squads tho as... just why!? 275pts base for 10 stormbolters when you DS in? then get shot to pieces by template weapons as you are bunched up? You're much better off being spread out.

Grey Knight FA units are 5 man 2xIncinerator...only build. 170pts, not that it matters....they still suck.

Yes, Centurian99, you definitely get props as one of the Prophets :-)

I can remember at least one thread where you were about the only one coming to my defense ;-)

i still haven't lost to daemons... in 7-8 games... personally.

phiasco wrote:i still haven't lost to daemons... in 7-8 games... personally.

A winner is you...

frgsinwntr wrote:

Shep wrote:
Seraphim are not used in top builds... you either see 3x exorcist with chimera/immolator support with shooty inquisitors, or you see immolator spam.

I agree with you. But I was table 2 last round at the Baltimore GT with a "non top" list. No seraphim mind you... but I also didn't have Chimeras or immolators. But you did indeed see 3 exorcists if you looked at my list

Seraphim are still good... but not at 1750 pts or pretty much anything below 2000pts now with 5th ed. OVER 2000pts the Seraphim can fill a very much needed role of "tie up the other guy" for a turn or 2 while you position yourself to wipe out his harder stuff with your shooting.

Well said... I'm interested in your list... can you PM it to me or direct me to a post of it?

Tortuga932 wrote:umm you do realize screamers are awesome, and seekers can be very good, assault marines are good, everybody used tornadoes until 5th came out, hellhounds are abundant, warpspiders are used, pathfinders in a tau army, grey knight teleport squads, raveners see much use in nids, seraphim for the sisters are widely used. so im confused why you think fast attack doesn't get used?


in the daemon army I actually don't like the heavy support section at all, if ever there was a weak section in that book it's there

Heh heh, screamers are awful guy. Oh, 6s to hit with 1 attack (When they cannot multirole) = fail.

The Heavy is the second best section of the Demon dex...with first being elites. I only call Elites first, as almost every choice there is a good one...with my order being Crushers--Flamers--Fiends--Beasts (Lets play the Sesame Street and see which one of those doesn't belong there..)

Shep wrote:

phiasco wrote:i still haven't lost to daemons... in 7-8 games... personally.

A winner is you...

only against daemons is seems...

and space wolves.

i think people are a little confused on what consists of a good choice in the daemon army.

The troops are far and away the best option in the book
elites are also very good
fast attack is also good
hq is also good
heavy is pretty bad


now the basis for the heavy being bad.

first we have to ask what the heavy support units do

daemon prince- this guy does close combat. at most in close combat he will kill 6 models not too shabby right? but for the same points I can get between 10 and 15 bloodletters, and at best they can kill 30-45 guys. Oh and they're a scoring unit. A daemon prince also has 4 wounds a unit of bloodletters has 10-15. So in terms of close combat there are units which far outstrip survivability, and combat killiness. Now in terms of shooting you have the option for bolt of tzeentch, which is the worst shooting attack in the daemon book. Daemonic gaze, and breath of chaos. I'd rather take flamers to get breath since you get one breath for every guy and for equal points you can get 3-5 flamers. If you are taking a daemon prince for daemonic gaze. that is a big mistake, yes he hits on 2's but if you're spending all those points to get three shots to kill infantry, you have a problem since almost everything in the daemon book can kill infantry better than the 3 shots a turn that gets you, not even taking into account cover saves. and for the points i'd rather bring horrors since you get way way more shots to try and shoot things dead. tank killing a daemon prince gets str plus 2d6 for tank busting now against anything other than a land raider, you know what does better? anything else. since you swing on rear armour, bloodletters, daemonettes, bloodcrushers, and especially a bloodthirster all kill tanks way better than a daemon prince, because of the number of attacks, survivability of a big unit. and if you're complaining about screamers needing 6's to hit, well then guess what a daemon prince does no better, and weight of dice is what will kill those tanks then. Against a land raider there are also far better options to bring than a daemon prince. A bloodthirster is the best option hands down to kill it since he has str 8/9 plus 2d6, a soul grinder is also useful here, and screamers hit a land raider just as easily as a daemon prince, however they have more dice to throw to try and hit since you get around 10 for the same points.

in conclusion

for close combat there are better things than a daemon prince
for shooting there are better things than a daemon prince
for tank busting there are better things than a daemon prince

as for a soul grinder

all of the same arguments for close combat apply above so the soul grinder looses out on the close combat scale, however it is funny when grey knights get into combat with a grinder.
as for shooting i do like the battle cannon shot. the tongue shot is almost worthless, if you're relying on a single str 10 shot to kill a tank that hits on a 4 i think you have some problems
as for tank busting I actually like the soul grinder, since he can deal with monoliths better than anything in the list, and he can hurt land raiders

the reason I don't like the soul grinder is that it's a vehicle, a single melta gun shot or rail cannon or what have you destroy's him, If you can kill a predator you can kill a grinder. So he has some severe issues of survivability which is why i don't like him

so the reason you bring a soulgrinder is because you want a pie plate and to kill tanks right? since close combat i'd rather have stuff that murders in close combat much more efficiently and effectively. Well against a tank the screamers actually have more dice to roll and have a better chance of killing a tank since they have meltabombs. so I would actually prefer a unit of 10 screames to a soulgrinder since you have a soul grinder in the army to kill tanks.


Now all of this is predicated on a few simple facts in the daemon army.

1. You need units to kill infantry and to kill tanks in any given army
2. the units in a daemon army can kill infantry and tanks with equal success, 15 bloodletters kill a tank and an infantry unit just as well
3. the only things you have to account for are land raiders (since their rear armour is 14) to that end you need to bring a unit that can kill a land raider, and for the points and survivability and effectiveness, the bloodthirster, and screamers are the best options, for amount of dice used, success when you hit, manueverability, and survivability. A soul grinder can do it but is outstriped in ability by the thirster and screamers. And a daemon prince is outclassed in the capabilities it has compared to other units.

I'm not in any way saying that a soulgrinder is bad, there are just other units that do the job it's there for with better success.
I am saying that a daemon prince is a terrible buy since everything it does it does not nearly as well as other units

To that end in fast attack seekers are awesome they have a giant range, and lots and lots of attacks at I6 with both grenades, and rending, I feel that the furies are worthless and there are better buys than them, the hounds are interesting but I think I'd rather take a troop unit than them.

So in fast attack there are 2 units that are good and in heavy there is one unit that is situationally good. my math says that fast is better than heavy here.

In pretty much every circumstance I'd rather have a bloodthirster than a soulgrinder, and the versatility of units like the masque, epidemeus, a keeper, and other hq choices, make me confident that the hq section is better than the heavy. (although I hate him others seem to have a man crush on him)

As for troops this here is the best section in the book hands down, the things these units can do makes me sick sometimes, and then on top of that they are scoring units too!!!!

In the elites, everyone knows how awesome bloodcrushers are, and flamers are a pretty awesome unit here too. I haven't used fiends of slaneesh yet, but I do see that they have some pretty awesome troop killing potential, but i am on the fence about them, and beast of nurgle = aweful so in here we have 2 maybe 3 units that are good and in heavy we have 1. so by my math the elites are better than the heavy

and before anybody says (oh but the heavy section only has 2 choices thats not fair) the lack of choice in a section also is what makes it weaker than the others too.


as for other stuff assault marines not good?!!?!? are you crazy a unit of assault marines backed up by a chaplain is one of the hardest hitting units out there. and I referenced tornadoes until 5th came out because it was mention that fast attack in the past 2 years was no good.

and you will see hell hounds in peoples list when they can take piles of russes, because a hellhound will eliminate a cover save and battle cannons won't.

now all of this is opinion and you are entitled to your own opinion since everybody plays differently but to make a blanket statement like "fast attack is bad" is both ignorant and uninformed, since there are many different ways of playing other than what I think and what others think. after all you may use daemon princes with great success, and that's awesome.

lots and lots more information can be found in the other daemon thread in the tactics section "are daemons competitive or a just for fun army" I go on quite a typing rampage there and you can find lots more info there that I didn't feel like retyping here

I think you are discounting just how good armor 13 is in 5th edition - especially ignoring shaken and stunned.

I see your point, but bloodletters are worthless against dreadnoughts and wraithlords (unless they get the charge and then they might be okay if you roll 6s.)

I think that daemons are able to deal with infantry quite easily these days - a bunch of vehicles on the other hand can give them fits. I think that is where the daemon prince and the soulgrinder have their value.

It could just be that I play against mech-eldar more than most people, but basic infantry just doesn't cut it against them - you need something that is resilient (especially vs. str6) and that can threaten vehicles that move and shoot.