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Deadshane-Wrecking Crew Founding Member, GT regular since '96, never won anything better than 2nd place best sport (chicago '02?), 2 tourney per year min, last 3 adepticons under my belt, regular top 10% as an attainable goal, and shouldve won Canada '02 General if it wasnt for that blasted Shawn Kemp (I hate you dood! j/k, you'll get yours soon).....

I've now seen it all on Dakka, usgwcommunity, thetruthhurts, and elsewhere....cries of cheating, top players being shady, WC being a bunch of cheaters, Stelek using this as a crusade, and GW judges simply taking hits trying to sweep it under the rug.

Where do I start?

Bottom line here is...its gaming. If you're cheating...why? If you're complaining...why? Both sides need to remember that at their heart, GT's are simply excuses for us all to get away from our wives and get into some real male bonding and drinkage. Sure its a competition, I got killed this last weekend...perhaps I'm victim of several of the "dice cheaters" that Stelek claims are flocking to the GT's, surprising, since I use the same large dice (you know, the ones you find in your Axis and Allies box sets) that he claims all cheaters use. Am I a victim?...or a perp?

WHO CARES?

GW doesnt HAVE to put these tournements on for us, neither do the guys in Chicago or the fella's that put on "the big Waagghh" or Necro. I for one appreciate the effort that those that do not play and work the weekend put on for myself and the guys I enjoy gaming with. They have a lot to deal with over a weekend supervising 100's of games and their rulings when there are only 5 or so of them availiable for a 12 or so hour WORK DAY. Great job guys, my hats off, and if you make a crappy ruling, which you have in several of MY games over the years...same comment, my hats off to the jobs you all do and the great weekend that you make possible for those of us who are looking to "take a weekend off to get away from it all". Win, lose or draw, maybe I come away with an equal measure of shame, anger, triumph, or even indifference over the years, but every time I know what these guys put in to make the weekend "work" as best they can. It can only be a result of "love" of the hobby, I appreciate the effort that goes into making my vacation from real problems in my life actually work out.

Great....we have the tournement organisers out of the way....

Cheating.

There is no difference now than the first days that GT started out, I cannot fathom what has taken this instance (baltimore) over the edge the way it has gone. There will always be those that stretch the rules, try to get over, play dice games or whatever for no other reason than to try and gain the massive world important glory of winning a trophy at a GT. (or 'Ard Boyz) If one is that concerned about rules issues, they need to be fluent in all codeii, rules and possibilities that can come up in a game. I've found myself victim to issues of cheating in the past. A single one comes to mind....

In a GT many years past (this game has always stuck out in my mind), I had gone undefeated up until my 4th game. I drew an eldar opponent. He stretched inches like no other opponent I had ever seen, drew line of sight when my past shooting phase he said there was none, and on the last turn of the game, flew a viper no less than 32" into my deployment zone to win the game when it had a maximum move distance of 24"....all thanx to his quickly picking up the model, not even measuring, and placing it into my deployment zone at the very beginning of his turn and claiming victory....it was a blatant cheat.

I let it go, because it was just a game and I wasnt trying to let this a$$ ruin a weekend that I'd just paid good money to attend. You know what....he didnt ruin it. Let him have his little victory....somehow I didnt see him in the winners circle at the end of the weekend.

Cheating will happen, its happened to us all I suspect. Those that purpetrate these crimes against gaming deserve to be ostricised I suppose. Honestly though, I really couldnt care less. Again, at the heart of every GT level event is the meaning to simply have a good time over the weekend. Perhaps sometimes cheating WILL be awarded...perhaps it was at this years 'Ard Boyz, I cannot say. I was in the same room when Gareth was performing his alleged "blatant cheat" and didnt hear anything about it until that evening. Then again, assuming there WAS a cheat that allowed him to win his 2nd of a series of 3 games....I see a broke 20 YO college student trying to make a name for himself on the tournement circuit....does this excuse him?....no, of course not, but 20 is hardly an age where enough wisdom has been gained to realise that there is more at stake during this event than a prize package of several box sets. (I'm not putting you out there Gareth, I congratulated you and still congratulate you on your win. You see, I wasnt there, therefore cannot judge. What happened is between you and your opponent and possibly the judge, noone else has anything truly to say) If Blackmoor, Yakface, Stormboy97, Stelek, ScottS, or usernames I cannot remember right now...Greg Sparks, Mike Muecheller, Certain winning members of Da Boyz and others had been caught cheating, I could see reason for this sort of uproar. I cannot. You see, most of the guys I've mentioned have established track records...probably even against cheating players...their playstyle has proven them to be superior to those that need to cheat in order to win....thats enough for me to trust in the system.

I do not want to go up against Muecheller, I dont think I can beat him. I dont care to go up against Sparks at a tournement...hard game, been there before. In personal games between college buds in our living room WAY back in say 93 or so when we roomed together in the same apartment, I HAD to cheat to beat Stormboy97 (marc Parker). Blackmoor....well, I'll school his a$$ but whatever. Neil Cauley? Winner this year at Baltimore...I've actually beaten him in the past in a tournement game. CHEATING DOES NOT HELP YOU AGAINST THIS CALIBUR OF GAMER. My point is that if someone is going to rise to the top during a tournement, chances are, in some fashion they've earned it.

I tend to doubt that Gareth cheated his way all the way to the top and the win overall during the 'Ard Boyz after playing 9 games against at LEAST 6 seasoned opponents. Some of which had to know the rules....and despite whatever rulings were made, unless it was a very CLOSE game, no single cheat would guarantee a win, not against a seasoned player. I've no doubt that Gareth earned his victory. Perhaps some shady tactics were used, I'll never know, I dont know him that well, but whatever happened is between himself, and his opponent. Honestly, it should've never become an issue online.

It's a game we're talking about here, and a vacation weekend for many of us. Beer and comradrie are what truly matter. Cheating is definatly wrong, YES, but to have the community EXPLODE and Judges come under fire for what's happened...it really isnt acceptable.

I'm probably going to come under fire for some of what I've said here, most likely by stelek on his blog, and probably flamed here. Such as "he's just trying to stick up for his WC partner" and some such nonsense.

Representing WC, I'll go ahead and say to the community that we're sorry for any confusion on this subject. Wrecking Crews mission as stated on our website, is to form an elite group of competetive gamers that consider sportsmanship always as a major factor in placing highly in any tournement. Any of you out there that have met with us KNOW that we're all about the GAME. As an entire group, we're all about honest gaming. We don't use tricks as a rule and any deviation from that policy will be addressed within our own community. If there were any shenanigans going on during the 'Ard Boys, rest assured, its's being looked into. Wrecking Crew wants nothing other than an Extremely pleasant, honorable and enjoyable a$$whooping for our opponents, one that you'll come back for again and again with a smile on your face.

Above all that, remember, we're playing with toy soldiers. It's not the olympics. The offenders will eventually come to pay or realise for what they've done. I'm sure I'll have more to say on the matter as people reply.

Let me be upfront; It's not a change from my policy of straight-forwardness, just a forewarning that I'm simply being honest and direct.

Most of the time, Deadshane, you annoy me. It would not surprise me if you said the same for me. I'm okay with that. Not everyone has to be "best buds."
Like others here, you come across to me as having a big ego and "too big for your britches" for my tastes and, quite often, seem to have quite an ego.
I find I disagree with you MUCH of the time.

Now, I'm not saying these to present them as facts, or to say anything more than OPINION.

S'okay, though.

All that being said, I DO have respect for you. You have NEVER come across to me as anything LESS than straight-forward (a trait I value), straight talking (I severly dislike attempts to obfuscate or distract people with unnecessarily "big" words or overly complicated phrasing/sentences), HONEST, intelligent and earnest.
Those things, to me, are more important than "liking" you.

I think, however, that I'd enjoy hanging out with you in a NON competetive environment.

My reason for saying this is so you know where I'm coming from and to give you a little bit more of an idea of what kind of person I am. Hopefully, they'll help balance what I'm about to say.

I liked that post.
Now, I was NOT there and don't claim to have any KNOWLEDGE of the situation, but I believe that what you said, almost entirely, is true.

From a totally neutral P.O.V., I'd like to tell you what I think about the WC and the "cheating" situation (and I suspect many would agree with).

WHO CARES?

Anyone who goes to or thinks about going to a tourney. IF it's true that cheaters openly prospered, it puts a funk on the event. Nobody wants to go and get cheated. Nobody goes WANTING to lose (note, WANTING to and not caring if you do are different). Something blown to such great proportions weighs heavily on people's minds. While we might all go to "hang out" at a nerd-fest, we also want to have the best possible shot at winning.... and a horrible cheater (as certain people have been painted) who gets a lot of attention because of it -especially because he won- really puts a damper on it. We don't want to feel like we have to scrutinize every move our opponents make. Many will feel that way about Gareth now. I'm not saying he deserves it... just that it'll happen.

Representing WC, I'll go ahead and say to the community that we're sorry for any confusion on this subject.

Representing MYSELF, I'll tell you the open apology, without condition or clause, is appreciated. Not necessarily REQUIRED... but appreciated. ESPECIALLY if it was a "group effort" to have you post it and not just you taking the reins.

Wrecking Crews mission as stated on our website, is to form an elite group of competetive gamers that consider sportsmanship always as a major factor in placing highly in any tournement.

A great number of the posts of your membership do not come across as this. I won't drag names through the mud, so nobody will be openly named by me, but there seems to be a large amount of egotism in many posts I see by WC members. THAT (IMO) is what gives the WC a "bad name" or automatically puts a sour taste in people's mouths about you guys.
You might consider reminding your members to be respectful on the boards you visit. That is often not the case (though, i can only speak for my experience at Dakka).

Wrecking Crew wants nothing other than an Extremely pleasant, honorable and enjoyable a$$whooping for our opponents, one that you'll come back for again and again with a smile on your face.

Coincidentally enough, that just happens to be my favorite kind.

We don't use tricks as a rule and any deviation from that policy will be addressed within our own community. If there were any shenanigans going on during the 'Ard Boys, rest assured, its's being looked into.

Here's what I think happened. Now -again- I was not there and don't DIRECTLY know anyone who was. I have read every thread and post about it, including the ones by the individuals directly involved in the game.

Gareth didn't exactly cheat. Sometimes you play the game... sometimes, you game the play... I think he gamed the play. It's not CHEATING... It's just...umm... unfair.
I believe he knew what the *right* thing to do was with deployment (empty deployment zone), and I believe he DID start with 1 HQ and 2 troops on the table. I think his claims of it having been ruled the same way previously are TRUE, but I think it was more "gaming the play" in that tourney, too.
I also believe that he DSed his Daemons around Fateweaver (with fortunate rolls) and not with the Icons. My guess is that the icons were probably not deployed forward enough for him.
As for the initial deployment, however, the question he specifically posted himself that he asked the judge was worded in such a way as to be unclear. His own statement made it sound to me as if he was talking about CSM and SM, by his wording of the question he said he asked.

I think this skirts mightily close to cheating, as he stretched the rules as far as he could go. His one and only saving grace (what little it is, IMO) is that he asked a judge. The judge said it was okay, so that's his pass on cheating. I don't think he can avoid the "unfair" moniker, though.

(BTW, I think the judge said he was never asked about that because the question was presented to him PROPERLY the second time & it didn't resemble the question Gareth asked).

The bases? It's a bunch of whiners. If he got the opponents permission, and was honest about telling him which base it SHOULD be, then he's cleared. It's the other guy's issue if he didn't realize just how big an impact it would have.
Oh... I also think the base issue might be an attempt to game the play. If he knew the army (which he has no reasonable excuse NOT to, if he had the pre-release codex and is such a good player), then he knew what a bonus the 40mm bases are. I think he HOPED to get that advantage by some easy-going opponents. Otherwise, he's have affixed the models more permanently. Still, though... he got their permission, so that is all that matters for that.

Same for the deployment issue. IMO, he's a good enough player & has enough experience with them to know the correct answer. Codex always trumps BGB.

I doubt that he did any dice cheating. His opponent, IIRC, made no mention of it.

His opponent should have known SOMETHING about Daemons and, IMO, should have owned the codex.
"Know your enemy" is a major part of the game. You shouldn't go in expecting to be "'Ard," and not know who you're fighting. IMO, he should also have had a copy of EVERY codex that he didn't have a working knowledge of WITH HIM.

I think the screaming and whining about cheating has gone on long enough. Too much mud has been slung. It's time to get over it, people. Really.

Lastly, I just want to reiterate that none of that is an accusation. It's simple OPINION based on what I saw/read in other threads, ignoring everything everyone said except for Gareth & his opponent. I understand that it COULD be wrong... but possibly not, as well.
I wish Gareth (and the rest of the WC) well, and think you guys are, obviously, a group of talented players who we'll all be hearing from/about in tourney's for years to come.

Sincerely,
Eric

I AM too big for my britches...

...good post

...no retort.

I'll certainly elaborate on some of your points in the morning as they've given me ideas, but thanx for "communicating" and not bashing.

Awesome conversation.

tl;dr. Still, you make a good point.
I especially liked the bit about male bondage.

Damn.. MM ..

great thoughts.. mirror my own in many many ways.

The only thing I would consider adding on my own end..

This really comes off as a "He said (s)he said" hearsay issue. Gareth and his opponent are the ONLY ones qualified to talk about this game..

take into account the 2 players personalities and gaming history.. and then drop the subject.

Deadshane.. most of the WC folks I read here on DD are fairly flippin' arrogant and trash-type a lot. I understand that.. it is part of the hobby to a degree.

When that attitude bleeds over into EVERY damn discussion .. that hurts the WC.. and.. good gamers or not.. attitude "sounds" much harsher online than around the game table.

(course, I am an ol' dude.. and these teenagers nowdays (shakin fist in the air))

-Porkuslime

Whereas I use this whole debacle, for that is what it is, as a prime example of why Friendly games are the best thing in this hobby.

Nothing is riding on it other than fleeting bragging rights for the post game pint, and if you get spanked like a little red headed step child, there is always the next game against that person to extract your revenge, and even better bragging rights.

To me, this can be used as evidence (not necessarily proof, that would be too much of an absolute statement for my liking) that GTs breed bad winners, bad losers, and bad gaming. For example, I have already mentioned I found the WC congratulating thread a little too much for *my* tastes. Don't get me wrong, I still gloat like a good'un over particularly famous victories, but it's only with the person I beat, and only when it's opportune (like Lols Vampire one, that gets dredged up a couple of times a year) but the whole 'Woo! Yeah!' thing leaves me cold, regardless of what has generated it.

But I also have sympathy with the winners of GTs, as apparently, not Tournament has ever been won by someone deserving, because it was always down to cheesey lists or cheating etc, which is patently nonsense.

But everyone needs to chill out some, and just embrace Friendly Games. So much more fun!

My bud plays 40k maybe twice a month if he's lucky and hasn't been to any tournaments in 6 years or so until he entered 'ard Boyz on a lark.
He had the good fortune of playing a game with Marc on his second round and had nothing but good to say about the guy and the way he plays.
As far as he's concerned, WC came up aces because of his experience at the national.

that was a good game, may he not get snake eyes next time...........

First: Deadshane, apology not needed but appreciated.
Second: WC come off as jerks online. Sorry but it is true. Not all of you but definitely enough of you that I noticed. Mostly only when you're all in a group talking about WC stuff.
Third: MDG, seriously, tournaments are not the devil. You have a major bee in your bonnet over this and for the life of me I can't see it.
Fourth: From an outsiders perspective, dude should have had correct sized bases, opponents were fools for letting him get away with it. Dude should have followed the proper deployment rules, judge and opponent were fools for not questioning it. Dice, well, those dice are biased but a lot of people are ignorant of that fact or disbelieve it, and it's not a huge bias. I say free pass.

Didn't say they were the devil. I get the appeal of testing your mettle against new and varied opponents. But when it comes to this, surely you have to stop and wonder if it's all worth it, to have your wins written off as cheating or beardiness?

They guy did some whiffy stuff and it's caused sour grapes. I think the solution is to not do whiffy stuff, especially at high levels. This dude is probably not going to do anything even remotely dodgy ever again, and if that's the case he shouldn't have anything to worry about.

The judge in question should probably go and have a quiet think about whether he should be judging things though, that was an obvious bad call.
It got blown out of proportion because some people made a big drama out of it, but that's not the fault of tournaments.

"I see a broke 20 YO college student trying to make a name for himself on the tournement circuit....does this excuse him?....no, of course not, but 20 is hardly an age where enough wisdom has been gained to realise that there is more at stake during this event than a prize package of several box sets."

Saying there is no excuse then making one anyway?

Your whole post is actually more or less of an excuse for everything.

A: Judges/GW cant be responcible for anything since they put in all this work for free and dont have to. Just because you do something for free without beeing forced to doesnt remove and responcibilites it will bring, you know that.

B: Cheating has always been around, so there isnt anything to do about it. You dont care what happens to people who cheat? (Yeah right)

C: Noone else has anything to say about someone cheating then the 2 persons involved. How can this be since that single game means a big diffrence to alot of people in the tournament? And to the scene of tournament players all around.

Now seeing alot of you team come out of the bushes and accusing anyone who seems to disagree for hearsay or how wrong it is for anyone but the specific 2 people to react really reflects bad on you. Looks like you are fighting with teeths and claws to defend cheating, just cause you are a team.

You even think it would be more apropriate to be really mad at others who if they were highly suspected of cheating?

hand it is posts like these that make people hate WC. You don't see any of our best members posting this kind of tripe.

G

yeah,
If the point was to draw a line under the issue... I don't think this thread will achieve that... But you made alot of good points.
I've only been to one proper tourney type thing, and I agree with you you go to have fun.

The Dude Should have used the correct size base and deployed as codex... it's his own fault his victory got soured.

Going to a tourney packing both the proper and improper size bases?
It's obvious to me why he brought two sizes of bases...
He'll approch his opponent "gee I sure hate these stupid big bases... do you mind I use the smaller base?"
so should a opponent say 'I don't care for your size issues, please use the proper bases'... he doesn't have to drop out/conceed the game, he's still got the proper bases.
I agree this is a 'play' for an advanatage... I also think it can also be called cheating. He knew he shouldn't use smaller bases.
Which part of all this is FUN?

This being said,
I have no issues with WC, honestly I don't know you.
WC seem to be rather defensive.
I have seen Alot of WC claiming 'We are not Cheaters' type comments...
And you guys let yourself down in threads like this...
how many times did you guys click the mod alert button to get that thread closed... nothing short of bullying the dakka MODS.
AS an outsider I look at that as a case of WC ruined a thread that was posted to discuss with and educate dakkites to ways that cheaters cheat.

anyways, Like i said GT's should be fun and if i ever attend one in the US, (I've been discussing the possibility of doing this), I'll be sure to say Hi. a$$whoopings will be optional.

Panic...

MagickalMemories wrote:A great number of the posts of your membership do not come across as this. I won't drag names through the mud, so nobody will be openly named by me, but there seems to be a large amount of egotism in many posts I see by WC members. THAT (IMO) is what gives the WC a "bad name" or automatically puts a sour taste in people's mouths about you guys.
You might consider reminding your members to be respectful on the boards you visit. That is often not the case (though, i can only speak for my experience at Dakka).

This is somewhat true and perhaps we should evaluate the effect this has on people in the future. To be fair though, it was only one thread containing the "back patting" and I dont think thats going out of bounds really for discussion online. Our club DID do real well this year in the circuit, its definatly something to be proud of.

GBF posts the most out of all of us here and is a self admitted "Troll" of sorts as in his sig. Any posts by him should be weighed in appropriatley. I can be very opinionated myself but neither of us "Wave the Banner of WC" while arguing. We're simply other dakkites....

Kallbrand wrote:
"I see a broke 20 YO college student trying to make a name for himself on the tournement circuit....does this excuse him?....no, of course not, but 20 is hardly an age where enough wisdom has been gained to realise that there is more at stake during this event than a prize package of several box sets."

Saying there is no excuse then making one anyway?

Negative. I'm not making an excuse for him. I'm simply promoting the frame of mind that should be followed by any adult gamer participating in GT's. "maybe something happened, maybe something didnt...its between the persons involved an noone else."

Kallbrand wrote:
Your whole post is actually more or less of an excuse for everything.

If thats the way you see it...whatever. Your post seems much like simply an opportunistic attack.

Kallbrand wrote:
A: Judges/GW cant be responcible for anything since they put in all this work for free and dont have to. Just because you do something for free without beeing forced to doesnt remove and responcibilites it will bring, you know that.

Judges DO have responsibilities, absolutly, but for them to come under fire as they have after the baltimore tournement is ridiculous and makes the gaming community look like a bunch of spoiled brats. Yes there's prize support, yes there are trophies, but everyone seems to forget that this whole hobby of ours is for FUN, its also a social occassion, and during any social activity there are bound to be snags occasionally. Everyone involved is human and not perfect.

Kallbrand wrote:
B: Cheating has always been around, so there isnt anything to do about it. You dont care what happens to people who cheat? (Yeah right)

...and what is accomplished by an entire internet community that WASNT THERE hounding and badgering one of the participants of the game in question. You dont know the circumstances, only two people perhaps three know the circumstances of the game....thats where the issue should stop.

Kallbrand wrote:
C: Noone else has anything to say about someone cheating then the 2 persons involved. How can this be since that single game means a big diffrence to alot of people in the tournament? And to the scene of tournament players all around.

BIG difference? How BIG would you say that difference is? The two people playing were of approximate equal skill (even assuming one had to cheat to get there, hypothetically) The game was close by their own admission, and one of them won.

I would say the outcome of their game only made a difference to the two people involved.

Lets also really not forget what the POINT of this thread is...its not to determine whether or not someone cheated, the point here is that everyone that is so 'up in arms' about the situation in baltimore needs to calm down just a little bit.

Green Blow Fly wrote:hand it is posts like these that make people hate WC. You don't see any of our best members posting this kind of tripe.

G

Unfortunately, a club is known or notorious for it's worst members.. Kinda like the chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. If you can't control the rot from within, how do you control it at all. Your best members should be more vigilant and whoop the piss outa the worst members.. And I'm not talking about on the table.

cut out the rot, or the rest of the arm will fall off and the body soon after..

This type of post doesn't make me hate WC.. What it does make me do is wonder who the better members are that are smart enough not to post..

Definitely agree that calming down is good.

Couple things:

If you have something to say about stelek, say it to his face on his blog. It's bs to flame him here where he can't respond. Again, dakka is becoming the ministry of truth. Be rude about army lists? banned. Cheat in a prestigious tournament? Oh well, we weren't there we can't judge. Balls.

Secondly, your double standard where it would be a big deal if some "big name" cheated, but its not a big deal because the cheater is only 20 years old is also complete crap. He's old enough to be there to play, he's old enough to take the consequesnces of his actions.

Third, no one cares about the WC. True some people have brought up other incidents, but most posters have been focused on this particular occurrence, not the club. In fact it has been GBF who has brought up the club in most of these threads.

Its amazing how closely my opinion mirrors MagickalMemories. Right down to disliking deadshane1. (Though i didn't know he founded WC, i now understand why the loves to tout its greatness so much)

I think Gareth did some very shady things. The bases DO matter, and he KNEW they mattered, or he would've just brought the big bases and been done with it. Why was he always trying to use the smaller bases? (though i bet he has learned from this and will always use the bigger bases in the future)

And the phrasing he said he used when he asked the judge was also disheartening. You're in the finals of a tourney, don't try to pull the wools over the eyes of a judge.


What i hope you WC posters take away from this: Learn some humility, try not to reference WC in your posts so much, scrutinize your younger members and scrutinize people before letting them join.

What judges should take from this: Make your ruling in front of both players, actually be at the table in question. (it should've been fairly obvious what the guy was asking if he had his demon army at the table-- and the opposing player could've heard the question and the ruling.)

Other players: Speak up during the first occurence of the cheating, not after (stupid sportsmanship score be damned!). If you think something is fishy, ask! It is completely ludicrous to me to let your opponent go, "Yeah, i came back from the judge, he's totally letting me do some wacky gak"

Also, know the other codices. Buy them, read them at stores, borrow a buddies, whatever. Find someone to do some test games against. honestly, its probably harder to find someone who plays DE then daemons. At least read a tactica on them.

stormboy97 wrote:that was a good game, may he not get snake eyes next time...........

It was because he had so much fun at the tournament playing with people like you that he might start doing tournaments more often.

biztheclown wrote:Couple things:

If you have something to say about stelek, say it to his face on his blog. It's bs to flame him here where he can't respond. Again, dakka is becoming the ministry of truth. Be rude about army lists? banned. Cheat in a prestigious tournament? Oh well, we weren't there we can't judge. Balls.

1. I didnt flame Stelek, actually quite the opposite, I threw him in with other players with established track records who we would be surprised to see cheating....where it actually WOULD be a big deal due to those players celebrity status.

2. One cannot say anything to stelek on his blog unless he 'approves it'

3. Stelek has nothing to do with this topic anyway, he wasnt at baltimore, so he knows nothing about the events there.

4. Who are you anyways, his friggin bodyguard?

5. please go away.

biztheclown wrote:
Secondly, your double standard where it would be a big deal if some "big name" cheated, but its not a big deal because the cheater is only 20 years old is also complete crap. He's old enough to be there to play, he's old enough to take the consequesnces of his actions.

1. It would be a big deal if a "big name" cheated because other gamers, younger and less successful ones sometimes look up to and emulate them. You seem to love Stelek so much, wouldnt you be upset to learn that he cheats in every game with loaded dice and false rules interpretations in order to maintain his undefeated status. Seems to me that you'd be crushed by this news. I dont think Gareth has such a devoted following.

2. please go away

biztheclown wrote:
Third, no one cares about the WC. True some people have brought up other incidents, but most posters have been focused on this particular occurrence, not the club. In fact it has been GBF who has brought up the club in most of these threads.

Fourth, noone cares about yesthetruthhurts but these last two things(what you mentioned 3rd and I mentioned 4th) arent what this thread is about. Its about calming down because the situation doesnt warrent such an internet uproar.

Fifth, I brought up WC as a club apology to anyone out there that feels slighted by the club itself, I'm sorry that someone apologising for confusion seems to offend you so.

Sixth, you're still here? Didnt I ask you to go away?

* sighs *

To be fair, I could care less about your club. Blaming a group for the actions of one individual member doesn't make a lot of sense.

That being said, there were some shady actions going on in Baltimore. Actually taking two sizes of bases particularly shows a disturbing amount of foresight.

This, in and of itself, doesn't bother me. What does bother me, and a lot of other people here it seems, is how every thread about this gets locked so quickly. And how defending questionable activities seems to be okay, while pointing out their problems (I've seen the phrase "a spade is a spade" thrown around this site a bit- it fits here) is "offensive" enough to close a thread. Rather than an honest assessment (ie- was the judges ruling correct, and/or did it even happen) from the T.O. we get; the judge is always right even when he's wrong. This is okay during the tournament, and indeed it has to be, but what about after the games are over? Man up and explain what happened, and if it was right or wrong to happen.

In the end I am disappointed with our own community and its inability to even approach a difficult, though necessary, discussion without falling back into: "my club is roxxors! we pwn everybodies!!! or something else similar. Frankly, dakkadakka itself has let us down and started "pulling warseers." If that offends you, well, you deserve it.

I think it is healthier if threads aren't locked too.

I would like to say that Sportsmanship is the number 1 concern of the WC. We have had internal issues before were players have been required to maintain certain sportsmanship scores at GTs. This has happened a few times before. We have pruned members and members have left. As stated before, the cast majority of our members dont post on here, so we're not all represented.

Our statement of "the most Elite Gamers" does not apply to only battle. Little known fact, but we got last lace at Chicago as well as overall. We like every aspect of the hobby. We have stellar painters as well as converters.

We look to have a membership that includes all aspects. Plus we are also the most diverse gaming group. We include every ethnicity, both genders, and one of our most prominent members is openly gay.

About the bases... Gareth is a college student and cannot afford $50 per model for each blood crusher so he converted his. He did not know that the model comes with a 60mm base when he built the army. He later bought 60mm bases so he can put his original 40mm bases on top of them. The rule book states you can ask your opponent for permission to use a base not supplied with the model so there is no cheating in that regard.

G

theHandofGork wrote:To be fair, I could care less about your club. Blaming a group for the actions of one individual member doesn't make a lot of sense.

That being said, there were some shady actions going on in Baltimore. Actually taking two sizes of bases particularly shows a disturbing amount of foresight.
I
This, in and of itself, doesn't bother me. What does bother me, and a lot of other people here it seems, is how every thread about this gets locked so quickly. And how defending questionable activities seems to be okay, while pointing out their problems (I've seen the phrase "a spade is a spade" thrown around this site a bit- it fits here) is "offensive" enough to close a thread. Rather than an honest assessment (ie- was the judges ruling correct, and/or did it even happen) from the T.O. we get; the judge is always right even when he's wrong. This is okay during the tournament, and indeed it has to be, but what about after the games are over? Man up and explain what happened, and if it was right or wrong to happen.

In the end I am disappointed with our own community and its inability to even approach a difficult, though necessary, discussion without falling back into: "my club is roxxors! we pwn everybodies!!! or something else similar. Frankly, dakkadakka itself has let us down and started "pulling warseers." If that offends you, well, you deserve it.

i

another thing... When a judge makes a wrong decision regarding a rule... think about the precedent that would be set if a game outcome was reversed due to a wrong call. The tone that would be set would be to often look for a mistake and reverse a game. Look at professional sports as an example... even with the now popular instant replay the refs still make mistakes. Part of being a player is living with the results however it shakes out. It's the same for playing in tournaments. It really doesn't matter if it is a small local tournament or a big national event. I know I have lost my share due to ruling I thought were questionable. Rarely if ever would I ever go on a popular site such as Dakka and complain. There are always at least two sides to every story. The truth is often somewhere in the middle and people can't help but be subjective. People are easily swayed by what they hear but as the old saying goes believe half of what you see and even less what you hear. If you weren't there then you are going on hearsay and I know that a lot of people are trying their best to spread rumors about this particular situation.

G

Relapse wrote:

stormboy97 wrote:that was a good game, may he not get snake eyes next time...........

It was because he had so much fun at the tournament playing with people like you that he might start doing tournaments more often.

come find me next year and we'll get a beer, whether we play or not.

I will buy the first round if I am there. I hope they have dark ale on tap too.

G

First off, while that particular game may have been between Gareth and "his opponent", the implications are much farther-reaching in scope.

0. Facts

I don't believe I've seen anyone argue that Gareth didn't know what he was doing on the deployment nor the bases. He probably shops the question to a number of newbie-looking Judges, *away* from the table: "Hey, the DoW mission says you can deploy 1 HQ and 2 Troops, that applies for all armies, right?" Eventually, somebody says "Yeah", not knowing what the implications are.

He brings 2 sets of bases, because he *knows* that there is a clear tactical advantage in playing with undersize bases, and that "Sports" can be used as an implied threat to get the opponent to concede the advantage: "Hey, I've got my Bloodcrushers based on Termie bases - you're cool with that, right?"

So no, Gareth didn't cheat *ALL* the way to the top, because some of his opponents know Daemons well enough to say "Um, your Codex doesn't allow you to deploy models on the table. You need to split and dice like your Codex says." "Your models are supposed to be based on 60mm bases, like the rulebook says."

1. Judging

First off, I don't think anybody is pillorying the Judge. The Judge got rolled by a player looking for an unfair advantage that went counter to his Codex and counter to his models. Really, the Judge is more of a victim here than anything else.

The issue with the Judge is that Gareth should have brought the Judge to the table at the start of the game. That way, there's no "the Judge said" shady business.

2. Wrecking Crew

Gareth is a WC member. He knows how to play Daemons. He fished for a way to avoid the two biggest downsides of his army in order to get an advantage the he could convert into a "win". From what I've seen, *none* of you WC members have a problem with this. And that's a pity.

If you (and your WC buddies) don't condemn it, then by inference, I can only conclude that you condone such "tactics". Even more's the pity.

3. Why it matters

This appears the first time someone's actually come forward and decided to say "enough". Bravo for them. They obviously decided that getting auto-dinged on future "Sports" scores would be worth the fuss.

The debate is healthy, and I'm sorry that your guy looks like an out-and-out cheater. I'm sorry that he's part of your crew. I'm sorry that you feel a need to defend him, rather than to expel him from your group.

Most of all, I'm sorry that this is how GTs are now "won".
____

Oh, yeah, a couple other things:

I have no love lost for Stelek, but if his crusade is to push for honest play, then I applaud him for that. -golf clap-

It wouldn't be the worst thing for GW to take a page from Magic and have the judges personally babysit the top tables, particularly in the last round when the prizes are on the line. After all, you look at other money events - the judges are right there, rather than being distant. *This* is a criticism that can fairly be laid at GW's feet. Such negligence should not be excused.