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Hey guys, can we check some rules by raw? I was reading the special character rules and it says that an IC that joins a unit does not benefit from any special rules. I then read the Pain boy entry and found that he "confers the feel no pain ability to his unit" a couple questions here.

1) Is feel no pain a special rule or an ability? (how is ability defined in the rules?)
2) Since the boss is an independent character that joins the unit, does he also gain this?

I'll be interested to see which way this goes, personally I feel that he should get FNP as should a space marine attached to a command squad with apothecary.

But I recall that when a similar situation came up recently, Yakface and others postulated that it required for the rule to specifically state "and attached characters" per the rule which says ICs don't get the unit's special abilities "unless specified in the rule itself" (page 48, BRB)

I fully concur that an IC joined to an Ork unit with a Painboy does not benefit from Feel No Pain. The rules are quite clear on this matter, but I have a feeling that many people don't know or disregard this rule.

Drunkspleen wrote:I'll be interested to see which way this goes, personally I feel that he should get FNP as should a space marine attached to a command squad with apothecary.

But I recall that when a similar situation came up recently, Yakface and others postulated that it required for the rule to specifically state "and attached characters" per the rule which says ICs don't get the unit's special abilities "unless specified in the rule itself" (page 48, BRB)

So the Painboy's FNP does confer to the Warboss because it "specifies in the rule itself" that FNP from the dok's tools is granted to the painboy's unit. Mind you, Mad Doc Grotsnik also has Dok's Tools, the exact same wargear as a Painboy, and clearly Mad Doc's FNP is meant to affect more than just himself? Yakface, would you agree with that?

olympia wrote:
So the Painboy's FNP does confer to the Warboss because it "specifies in the rule itself" that FNP from the dok's tools is granted to the painboy's unit. Mind you, Mad Doc Grotsnik also has Dok's Tools, the exact same wargear as a Painboy, and clearly Mad Doc's FNP is meant to affect more than just himself? Yakface, would you agree with that?

Nope, you've got it backwards. Read page 48 of the rulebook under "special rules". An IC who joins a unit does not confer the rule upon the unit, and vice-versa unless the rule specifies otherwise.

In the case of Mad Dok Grotsnik, the ability most certainly specifies that it is conferred the unit (so it is) but nothing speciifes that Grotsnik himself (or any other IC that joins the unit) benefits from the special rule so he does not.

That'll be another GW oversight then.

I agree RAW suggests that Apothecaries and Painboys won't lift a finger to save their dying commanders, but was this the intention?

Well I guess that it's down to individual players on how to interpret it. For friendly games, my Painboy most certainly will have the painkillers at the ready if my Warboss get's hit by a Krak Missile.

Flashman wrote:That'll be another GW oversight then.

I agree RAW suggests that Apothecaries and Painboys won't lift a finger to save their dying commanders, but was this the intention?

Well I guess that it's down to individual players on how to interpret it. For friendly games, my Painboy most certainly will have the painkillers at the ready if my Warboss get's hit by a Krak Missile.

You can if you like but you really should be informing your opponent of what you're doing.

The rule is pretty clearly put in place to stop ICs (who tend to be pretty uber-dudes with plenty of armor saves, invulnerable saves, and other special rules to protect themselves) from gaining the abilities of units just by joining them (and vice-versa).

So while it may not make a whole lot of sense from a FLUFF perspective that an Apothecary wouldn't help out a Commander, from a GAME perspective it makes perfect sense. . .ICs don't get buffs simply by joining units unless the rule specifically says that they do.

If each model had FNP as a special rule per model then I could agree.. But if the pain boyz confers the ability to the unit then does an IC count as part of a unit when he/its/she joins one?

The bit that gives the FNP rule is the mad docs specail rules which mentions the unit. The IC thing rulebook is to stop beasted demon princes infiltrating and crazieness like that by joining units with innate special abilities.

As an aside, a Space Marine commander with a command squad is no longer an IC. He is a part of that squad and only becomes an IC again if everyone else in the command squad is dead. Wouldn't that make him part of the unit and allow him to benefit from FNP? I would make a similiar argument for a warboss, but IIRC they cannot buy a retinue.

Razerous wrote:If each model had FNP as a special rule per model then I could agree.. But if the pain boyz confers the ability to the unit then does an IC count as part of a unit when he/its/she joins one?

The bit that gives the FNP rule is the mad docs specail rules which mentions the unit. The IC thing rulebook is to stop beasted demon princes infiltrating and crazieness like that by joining units with innate special abilities.

Yes, we agree that Painboyz confer the ability on the unit. But there is no evidence that you ignore the basic rules for ICs that prevents them from gaining a special rule by joining a unit.

PanzerLeader wrote:As an aside, a Space Marine commander with a command squad is no longer an IC. He is a part of that squad and only becomes an IC again if everyone else in the command squad is dead. Wouldn't that make him part of the unit and allow him to benefit from FNP? I would make a similiar argument for a warboss, but IIRC they cannot buy a retinue.

You are incorrect and are thinking about the old Space Marine codex. In the new codex SM characters are not permanently attached to their command squads.

I don't think it's that cut and dry Yak. Conferring a rule onto a unit is something quite different than the unit having the rule standard and the IC joining attempting to benefit.

If you consider the phrase: "He confers the FNP ability to his unit" to take place only during list creation then sure, it's cut and dry the unit has FNP, the IC joins but he doesn't benefit from it per the IC rules.

However, the Painboy rule doesn't say that it only happens at list creation. If you interpret this phrase to take place at any time (or all the time), then it's as simple as:
Is model part of unit?
Painboy confers Feel no Pain to model.
IC rules not required because we're not talking about the IC gaining feel no pain from joining the unit, we're talking about the Painboy conferring feel no pain onto the IC because he's part of the unit. It's two distinct ways of looking at the same situation.

Cheers moz, you put it much more succinctly. It also works along the lines of - if you were to ever kill of the painboy (the eldar power Mindwar, for example) then the entire unit would stop having FNP.

Plus it isnt a rule marked out by the dex that automatically gets lost by IC's joining/vice versa. Shuch as fleet or infiltrate.

I'm glad I read this thread, or I would have never realised and would have been playing this wrong!

Does a waagh! banner benefit a warboss? Also, the anti-conferral crowd could cite the fact that ICs are treated as separate units for CC.

We know that the IC isn't a part of the unit during Assault. So it would not get FNP at that point.

Democratus wrote:We know that the IC isn't a part of the unit during Assault. So it would not get FNP at that point.

ICs only count as a separate unit for the purposes of resolving attacks, they are still a part of the unit they are in for all other purposes.

Moz wrote:I don't think it's that cut and dry Yak. Conferring a rule onto a unit is something quite different than the unit having the rule standard and the IC joining attempting to benefit.

If you consider the phrase: "He confers the FNP ability to his unit" to take place only during list creation then sure, it's cut and dry the unit has FNP, the IC joins but he doesn't benefit from it per the IC rules.

However, the Painboy rule doesn't say that it only happens at list creation. If you interpret this phrase to take place at any time (or all the time), then it's as simple as:
Is model part of unit?
Painboy confers Feel no Pain to model.
IC rules not required because we're not talking about the IC gaining feel no pain from joining the unit, we're talking about the Painboy conferring feel no pain onto the IC because he's part of the unit. It's two distinct ways of looking at the same situation.

You are right. As far as you have taken it.

The general rule states that the unit gets the effect of the unit. So with just that rule, it will effect the models in the unit, any attached IC, perhaps some shield drones, Cron warriors that 'joined' from another unit, etc. Anything that is now considered to be part of that unit, will be effected by that rule.

Except... there is a specific rule that makes an exception for an IC. The *only* way a special rule will effect an IC, is if it *specifically* states it will effect an IC. Since it doesn't.... it doesn't.

coredump wrote:Except... there is a specific rule that makes an exception for an IC. The *only* way a special rule will effect an IC, is if it *specifically* states it will effect an IC. Since it doesn't.... it doesn't.

I've looked in the rulebook and haven't found this - can you reference it?

There is no asterisk beside the FNP USR.

G

Traskel wrote:

coredump wrote:Except... there is a specific rule that makes an exception for an IC. The *only* way a special rule will effect an IC, is if it *specifically* states it will effect an IC. Since it doesn't.... it doesn't.

I've looked in the rulebook and haven't found this - can you reference it?

PLease read Yakfaces 2nd reply

yakface wrote:

In the case of Mad Dok Grotsnik, the ability most certainly specifies that it is conferred the unit (so it is) but nothing speciifes that Grotsnik himself (or any other IC that joins the unit) benefits from the special rule so he does not.

So a Painboy gets FNP from carrying Dok's Tools but Grotsnik does not?

Page 48 of the rulebook under "special rules".


Thanks for making this clear OP, Drunkspleen, and Yakface.

I'd love to see this in the FAQ though, people are going to have issues with this.

I don't see why it should be an issue. It's not like it cripples this very uber unit.

G

But the unit got no special rules. The nob unit does not have FNP or +1 WS.

The special rules comes from an item of wargear that affects everyone in the unit. As long as a IC is joined to a unit he is part of the unit.
The wargear affect everyone in the unit.

As much as I hate the rules, I have to agree with Yak. It says very specifically that special rules are not transfered to and from IC to attachedsquads unless it says specifically in the special rule section as "stuborn". Stuborn says very clearly "IC with this rule pass it on to any unit he joins."

Webbe wrote:But the unit got no special rules. The nob unit does not have FNP or +1 WS.

The special rules comes from an item of wargear that affects everyone in the unit. As long as a IC is joined to a unit he is part of the unit.
The wargear affect everyone in the unit.

Agreed, the non-conferral crowd keeps citing "special rule" but in the Ork Codex FNP is not listed as a special rule at all. It is from wargear. Page 48 deals only with "special rules" not with wargear. P. 74 deals with USR provides the * rule and the "codex trumps rulebook."

Being 'attached' to a unit and being 'part' of a unit are completely different concepts imho.

olympia wrote:

Webbe wrote:But the unit got no special rules. The nob unit does not have FNP or +1 WS.

The special rules comes from an item of wargear that affects everyone in the unit. As long as a IC is joined to a unit he is part of the unit.
The wargear affect everyone in the unit.

Agreed, the non-conferral crowd keeps citing "special rule" but in the Ork Codex FNP is not listed as a special rule at all. It is from wargear. Page 48 deals only with "special rules" not with wargear. P. 74 deals with USR provides the * rule and the "codex trumps rulebook."

It's wargear that grants the USR (Universal Special Rule) "feel no pain".

Ozymandias, King of Kings

To those who are trying to quibble between whether the FNP is from a "special rule" or a piece of "wargear," you have to consider that FNP is a Universal Special Rule.

Regardless of how the unit derives the benefit of that USR, it is still a USR. Unless specifically stated, a unit's USRs are not conveyed to or from an IC.

To use the old "premise:conclusion" format:

P1: Feel No Pain is described under the USR section of the rule book.
P2: There is no alternative description for how the Feel No Pain ability granted to a unit by a Pain Boy works in Codex: Orks (unlike, for example, how the DE Grotesque's "Feel No Pain" rule works).

C1: The Feel No Pain ability granted by a Pain Boy is the same as the USR appearing in the BRB and follows those rules.

P3: A Pain Boy joined to an Ork unit confers the Feel No Pain ability to the unit he joins.
P4: Unless otherwise noted, a unit with Feel No Pain does not confer that rule to any IC that is joined to that unit, and vice versa.
P5: The rules in Codex: Orks for the Pain Boy and/or his wargear to not specify that the Feel No Pain rule is conferred on any/all IC's joined to that unit.

C2: IC's (such as a Warboss) joined to such a unit of Orks including a Pain Boy do not benefit from Feel No Pain.

olympia wrote:
Agreed, the non-conferral crowd keeps citing "special rule" but in the Ork Codex FNP is not listed as a special rule at all. It is from wargear. Page 48 deals only with "special rules" not with wargear. P. 74 deals with USR provides the * rule and the "codex trumps rulebook."

Hrm. Ok, assuming you're correct, where exactly are the rules for the "ability" "Feel No Pain" that is granted by the "wargear" item? I mean, you're contending that it is somehow different from the USR "Feel No Pain," and doesn't need to adhere to the rules for the USR. If that's the case, where are the rules for this Orky version of FNP and how does it work?