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Daemon Prince - Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 155

Daemon Prince - Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 155

9 Plague Marines + 1 Champion - 2 Meltaguns, Powerfist - 335
Rhino w/ Combi-Flamer

9 Plague Marines + 1 Champion - 2 Meltaguns, Powerfist - 325
Rhino

9 Berzerkers + 1 Champion - Powerfist - 250
Landraider w/ Combi-melta - 230

2 Obliterators - 150

2 Obliterators - 150

Total - 1750


Do you guys think this list is pretty good competitively? I only have 4 oblits so far, etc. so there were limitations on what units I could bring.

I bought a landraider for some reason, so I thought I might as well throw some of my berzerkers into it. Or would I be better off with plague marines or emperor's children inside my landraider?

Thanks in advance.

Honestly, you didn't have to post this, because it's all CSM players use in tournaments anyway. Of course it's bloody competitive.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Honestly, you didn't have to post this, because it's all CSM players use in tournaments anyway. Of course it's bloody competitive.

it's a matter of copy and paste with "competetive" csm lists nowadays

Lots of people call it competitive. Other people call it a gimmick.

I think it would be competitive against the right opponent, but against someone whose army doesn't cater to its strengths, or who knows the counter-tactics, you're going to get minced, particularly since the latter should be everyone these days.

It's kind of weird seeing Zerkers and a land raider in there. It kind of shakes up the usual competitive PM squadx3 2xLash DP 9x Oblit formula. If you do take this somewhere take some notes and tell us how you use the Zerkers in conjunction with everything else. I'd wager that this deviation form the formula might do you well as most don't expect to be assaulted by CSMs now a days.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Honestly, you didn't have to post this, because it's all CSM players use in tournaments anyway. Of course it's bloody competitive.

That is NOT what CSM players use in tournaments.

I only have 4 obliterators. The norm is 9, more than twice as many.

I was just wondering if I would need to wait for 9 oblits to be winning against the other "copy-paste" powerlists.

Bah. My list doesn't look like this, and would perform pretty darn well against it. Sure, there's lash princes. But with all the meltaguns in the world today I've abandoned my obliterators in favor of combi-weapon terminators, with noisemarines to really put the hurt on marine armies [no sonic blasters, just the doomsiren] and regular chaos space marines to do the dirty work like popping tanks.

Know what's great at popping tanks, for similar cost to the oblits but less vulnerability to meltaguns? Some havocs with 4 meltaguns in a rhino. 150 points for the most bare-bones you can possibly have, and it's another rhino for the enemy to deal with.

And plaguemarines cost almost as much as 2 regular marines. Sure they're tough, but they have only half the offensive power as those marines. Killing the enemy is worth more defensively than being T5 with feel no pain.

Spellbound wrote:

And plaguemarines cost almost as much as 2 regular marines. Sure they're tough, but they have only half the offensive power as those marines. Killing the enemy is worth more defensively than being T5 with feel no pain.

Shhhhhhh Spellbound, don't give away the secrets! Plague marines for life!

Spellbound wrote:
And plaguemarines cost almost as much as 2 regular marines. Sure they're tough, but they have only half the offensive power as those marines. Killing the enemy is worth more defensively than being T5 with feel no pain.

Well, a dead man doesn't kill the enemy.

Against S3 shooting, 60 hits on a chaos marine would cause 20 wounds, 6.66 unsaved
60 hits on a terminator would cause 20 wounds, 3.33 unsaved.
60 hits on plague marine would cause 10 wounds, 3.33 unsaved, 1.66 taken
4 times as many chaos marines die, the CSM unit loses 4 guns per 1 gun lost by the plague marines. Also CSM aren't fearless and can fail a morale test and fall back.

Against S4 shooting, 60 hits on a chaos marine would cause 30 wounds, 10 unsaved
60 hits on a terminator would cause 30 wounds, 5 total terminators die.
60 hits on a plague marine would cause 20 wounds, 6.66 unsaved, 3.33 taken.

3 times as many chaos marines die, the CSM unit loses 3 guns per 1 gun lost by the plague marines.

Against S5 shooting, 60 hits on a chaos marine would cause 40 wounds, 13.33 unsaved
60 hits on a terminator would cause 40 wounds, 6.66 unsaved.
60 hits on a plague marine would cause 30 wounds, 10 unsaved, 5 taken.

Plague marines are twice as durable as terminators against small arms imperial guard style fire.
They're a bit more durable than terminators against bolters.
All for only 23 points each and fearless (which terminators aren't) and the blight grenades give them significantly more melee durability than a default termie.

Maybe you could have 2 rhinos full of small squads of CSM for the cost of 1 rhino full of plague marines, but the CSM will give up kill points to the enemy a lot easier and more KP for more units.

I'm gonna assume the 9 oblits are for the big firepower while things are held at bay by plague marines and stuff.

But the terminators are vastly better than the plaguemarines in close combat. I'll take slightly reduced survivability for the ability to utterly crush my opponents in close combat with power weapons at I4 or 5 rather than slapping them in the face at I3. Plus, how durable are your plaguemarines to battle cannons or demolisher cannons? Or power weapons? The terminators fare a little better, I think.

The calculations for plaguemarines being tougher than regular chaos marines are fine and dandy. Problem is that you forgot what happens when people use weapons good at killing plaguemarines. When hit by a battle cannon or facing off against powerfists, plaguemarines die just as easily as the regular marines, and I'd wish I had more bodies.

Or I'll just wish I'd had twice as many shots to kill the enemy with in the first place.

Careful, Spellbound. People will start declaring that you don't actually play the game...

Comparing PMs and Terminators is like comparing apples and oranges. They perform tactically different roles. PMs sit on objectives and usually have some cover which makes them annoyingly tough. In this role, the survivability is paramount and makes them the ideal choice. Termies are used as a combi weapon platform or for CC assault. In this role, the greater I, combis, and PWeaps makes them ideal.

jmurph:

Yup. Capture the objective using Terminators, and hold it with Plague Marines. But I think TheBloodGod already has the Berzerkers to do the hard work of capturing objectives.

The problems I see are that the Land Raider does not have Daemonic Possession, which is expensive, but really lets the Land Raider do its job - delivering the Berzerkers, and blowing away opposing armour and bunkers. Given that it already has two Twin-Linked Lascannon, it might do better with a Havoc Launcher or a Combi-Flamethrower to help clear infantry hordes.

It might be something to trade one unit of Plague Marines for a unit of Noise Marines, to hold the backfield objective with longer-ranged firepower.

I'd also suggest trading the Obliterators for something else, like a unit of Havocs in a Rhino or a Defiler, since two Obliterators is two Melta Guns away from a Kill Point.

Defilers are, imho, thee best horde clearing army. A battle cannon and 5 cc attacks can utterly destroy the back bone of any army.

I'd also suggest trading the Obliterators for something else, like a unit of Havocs in a Rhino or a Defiler, since two Obliterators is two Melta Guns away from a Kill Point.

Still, Obliterators are the best bang for the bucks since they are very versatile.
Imagine a Daemon army with GDs. Twin-linked plasma guns are the best way to remove them.
Imagine deep-striking Termies. Plasma cannons...
Imagine Lootas. I decimated a squad of 15 by plasma cannons...

Defilers are not very good at shooting and are very expensive. I would rather take multiples of vindicators. They are tougher and can deal with vechicles and terminators much better.

It’s not bad at all.

The final heat of the UK GT had several CSM players with Lash in the top ten, but after Lash the builds were all different. Some used Oblits, some used Vindicators, some used Landraiders. Some used Plague Marines, some used Berserkers, one or two used Noise Marines. Mixes of the above also existed. In the final round of the Baltimore GT there were at least three of us with dual Lash on the top ten tables, and again our builds were all very different.

Berserkers are outstanding for the amount of smackdown they lay out. With WS5 and +1 attack over regular marines, they kill a substantially greater number of Orks than an equivalent points’ value of Plague Marines or regular CSMs. When you get the charge and add S5 and another attack it’s just brutal. Saturday I saw two squads hit a squad of 25 Orks and deal 31 wounds before the Fists even swung. Admittedly that was above-average dice, but those guys hit like a ton of bricks.

Papadoc wrote:Defilers are not very good at shooting and are very expensive. I would rather take multiples of vindicators. They are tougher and can deal with vechicles and terminators much better.

I agree, I scrapped Defilers as soon as they removed Indirect Fire as an option.

They can't move and shoot their ordinance gun, so obliterators are much more versatile.
(Edit: They really CAN move and shoot the ordinance, disregard me being stupid.)

Obliterators can stay hidden behind something say if your opponent gets first turn, then on your turn, pop out and unload. Defiler will have to either be free to blast away with Lascannons or unable to shoot on your 1st turn.


My New Build:
Daemon Prince slaanesh w/ Wings + Lash
Daemon Prince slaanesh w/ Wings + Lash

9 Plague Marines + 1 Champion w/ Pfist + 2 Flamers
Rhino w/ Extra Armor

9 Plague Marines + 1 Champion w/ Pfist + 2 Flamers
Rhino w/ Extra Armor

10 Raptors + 1 Champion w/ Pfist + 2 Meltaguns + Mark of Nurgle

3 Obliterators
3 Obliterators

Total: 1750 points.


Does it look any more versatile with me getting the extra 2 oblits to deny KPs and the large squad of raptors which can take out stuff like enemy Vindicator tanks or Devastator plasma squads or anything that would cook my plague marines / oblits?

Except that Defilers can fire their Battlecannons on the move, and you need to draw line of sight to their hull (not their arms and legs) if you're planning on shooting them.

Nurglitch wrote:Except that Defilers can fire their Battlecannons on the move, and you need to draw line of sight to their hull (not their arms and legs) if you're planning on shooting them.

Ah, that's right. I'm still getting used to 5th edition, played mostly in 2nd or 3rd.

List #3.

Flying Lash D. Prince
Flying Lash D. Prince

9 Plague Marines + 1 Champion w/ Powerfist: 2 Meltaguns
9 Plague Marines + 1 Champion w/ Powerfist: 2 Flamers

7 Raptors + 1 Champion w/ Powerfist: 2 Meltaguns

3 Obliterators
3 Obliterators
1 Defiler

Total: 1750 points.

Raptors try to flank enemy or whatever and handle enemy tough tanks or devastator squads. Oblits and defiler blast stuff off the face of the planet if it gets Lash'd close together.

Do you think I have enough troops with this list to win games? Or should I just replace a defiler or raptor squad with more troops? Tough decisions.

TheBloodGod:

While Plague Marines are tough, two units only goes so far, particularly if they're not mobile. Also, their range is limited by comparison to Noise Marines and Chaos Marines. Chaos Space Marines are also a cheap source of Lascannons.

Having longer range means that a unit sitting on an objective in your backfield can address the flanks of a 6'x4' board and your opponent's backfield if they decide to hold off and shell you off the objective instead of trying to assault.

You might also consider your Obliterators' ability to Deep Strike and how that would be enhanced by the presence of Icons, making it a matter of when they arrive rather than if they arrive.

If you're planning on using the Lash of Submission, you might consider using Sorcerers instead of Daemon Princes, as they can shelter in units, take an extra power with a Familiar, take a Personal Icon just in case a Deep Strike by Obliterators is a good idea, and they can take Wings for mobility. Their enhanced Initiative makes their Force Weapon a better proposition for killing Space Marine and Ork characters which will just as easily grind a Daemon Prince down thanks to the difference in wounds caused by shooting such a target without stuff like Land Raiders to hide its advance.

HQ
Chaos Sorcerer
w/Mark of Slaanesh, Wings, Plasma Pistol, Personal Icon, Familiar, Lash of Submission, Warptime, Melta Bombs


Troops
Plague Marines
9 Plague Marines
w/Flamethrower, Melta Gun, Personal Icon
1 Plague Champion
w/Powerfist, Combi-Melta
1 Rhino
w/Daemonic Possession, Dozer Blade


Chaos Marines
11 Chaos Marines
w/Icon of Chaos Glory, Lascannon, Plasma Gun
1 Aspiring Champion
w/Combi-Plasma, Melta-Bombs


Chaos Marines
11 Chaos Marines
w/Icon of Chaos Glory, Lascannon, Plasma Gun
1 Aspiring Champion
w/Combi-Plasma, Melta-Bombs


Light Support
Raptors
9 Raptors
w/Icon of Slaanesh, 2 Flamethrowers


Heavy Support
Obliterator Cult
2 Obliterators


Obliterator Cult
2 Obliterators


Defiler
w/Twin-Linked Lascannons, Extra Close Combat Arm

Nurglitch wrote:TheBloodGod:

While Plague Marines are tough, two units only goes so far, particularly if they're not mobile. Also, their range is limited by comparison to Noise Marines and Chaos Marines. Chaos Space Marines are also a cheap source of Lascannons.

Having longer range means that a unit sitting on an objective in your backfield can address the flanks of a 6'x4' board and your opponent's backfield if they decide to hold off and shell you off the objective instead of trying to assault.

You might also consider your Obliterators' ability to Deep Strike and how that would be enhanced by the presence of Icons, making it a matter of when they arrive rather than if they arrive.

If you're planning on using the Lash of Submission, you might consider using Sorcerers instead of Daemon Princes, as they can shelter in units, take an extra power with a Familiar, take a Personal Icon just in case a Deep Strike by Obliterators is a good idea, and they can take Wings for mobility. Their enhanced Initiative makes their Force Weapon a better proposition for killing Space Marine and Ork characters which will just as easily grind a Daemon Prince down thanks to the difference in wounds caused by shooting such a target without stuff like Land Raiders to hide its advance.

Plague marines guns have the exact same range as normal chaos marines. Regular chaos marines are an expensive source of ONE lascannon. That they do not even get for free.

If someone was going to play with 10-man squads with 1 lascannon, they should be playing an imperial space marine army. Combat squads are less wasted troops. Free heavy weapon. Strong shooty allies. ATSKNF.

You have 9 dudes with bolters sitting around doing nothing while 1 guy takes a single shot. They also die 3x faster against bolter fire than plague marines. So if bolters would bring down 3 plague marines, same amount would bring down 9 chaos marines, and the unit might run away and can never regroup with that many casualties.

There is NO good reason to use a sorceror instead of a demon prince. They cost about the same points, and the demon prince is simply stronger, in every way.

A Sorceror with a full unit of bodyguards is stronger than a Daemon Prince alone. The Daemon Prince costs FAR FAR less if you're not including the bodyguards needed to keep the sorceror from dying.
If you have a squad of raptors just flying around back with your sorceror who's trying to lash things. That unit is just as good a target to blast dead as a DP is. Gun down the raptors, and you have a squishy defenseless sorceror who can be KO'd by a single dude with a powerfist.

_A_
Daemon Prince- Wings, Slaanesh, Lash, Monstrous Creature, Immune to Instant Death, S6, T5.
Total 155 Points.

_B_
Sorceror- Wings, Slaanesh, Lash, S4 force weapon, T4.
6 Raptors + 1 Champion w/ Powerfist. Icon of Slaanesh. 2 Meltaguns.
Total 370 Points.


You can have two Daemon Princes for FAR CHEAPER than a single sorceror unit. The DP cannot be instakilled either. A single good Defiler shot or obliterator barrage could easily remove the entire Sorceror squad, which costs more than twice as much as the single Daemon Prince. Hell, you can buy a Daemon Prince + Defiler for only 305 points. And it can destroy a sorceror squad in a single decent shot.

Against normal T4 marines, a sorceror wounds on 4+, a prince wounds on 2+. The sorceror dies to a single powerfist attack. Despite costing the same as a prince.

There is really no good reason to go with a sorceror. Use a DP intelligently and it wins fights.