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geargutz wrote:
in response to the comments that say "gw focused on faction internal balance"

internal balance was my biggest gripe with 7th. yes we had some good units in 7th but they were so better then anything else in the codex it was a no brainer to bring anything else. a stormboy was nothing compared to a bike, so it was always a disadvantage to run any force of stormboys instead of bikes.
now im not saying everything is perfectly balanced in our faction in 8th, but its way closer then in previous editions. the only thing that makes units more desirable over anther is what our opponent would bring. if they brought nothing but anti tank then boyz are obviously more useful then gorkanauts, but that is all about the concept of external balance.
id rather have my codex 1st internally balanced before it is externally balanced, that way i can at least not feel like im hamstringing myself by bringing a dread mob instead of a green tide.

I agree, but external balance is the reason most of our shooty options don't see play. Either because they die too fast due to lacking durability or they kill to little due to high weapon costs and bad BS. The result is orks having no answer to shooting armies except somehow crossing the field and killing everything in combat. Which pretty much matches my experiences in games. When fighting armies that field units that favor assault over shooting like daemons, nids or certain flavors of marines (Black Templar or World Eaters for example) things like lootaz, mek gunz or flash gits suddenly start working like a charm. When facing tau, eldar or the dreaded ultra smurfs those units pretty much act as "stuff that dies before boyz". Which leads us back to the mantra "boyz before toyz", a massive indicator of terrible internal balance.

in previous editions gw seemed to focus on external balance, this would lead not only to codex creep, but also to most codex's having a whole bunch of useless models, the gap of useful and useless units had greatly decreased this edition.
if they now focus on external balance then we could have the more perfect game (an impossible feat, but worthy goal for any company to strive for), and as far as ive seen gw has been doing its best and better, could you have expected the changes we've had within the last few months a year ago?

Neither internal nor external balance is more important than the other, nor is there an actual line you could draw between them. For any given unit, it needs to have a role it can fulfill in the context of any given game. There also must not be unit that is strictly better in fulfilling that role, otherwise there is no point in taking it.
Three examples:
1) There is the tractor cannon right now. In the context of the codex it's pretty close in terms of efficiency to all the other artillery units, lootaz and dakka jets. It's role is killing flyers, but even a full unit will struggle to harm a single storm raven at all before that storm raven wipes out the unit with its own shooting. So what's the point in ever taking it, when it can't even put as much as a dent into its dedicated targets with no other redeeming qualities. This is neither internal nor external balance. It's a unit that has rules that failed to function.
2) Storm boyz are fast orks with little survivability and bad shooting, warbikers are fast orks with high survivabilty and great shooting. The reason one sees play and the other doesn't is not just because warbikers should drop to the point costs of storm boyz, but because it's somewhat easier to kill one 2W T5 4+ model than three 1W T4 6+ models due to how damage works.
3) Footslogging tank bustaz, burnaz or flash gits are all pretty ok when there is nothing but other orks are shooting them However, if there is no way to keep them alive through an imperial shooting phase, you simply don't field them. Suddenly they disappear from the list of viable units even though they are not worse than footslogging any other unit.

also, i highly doubt the playtesters were bought out to hype the game, i honestly think they tried their best to help gw, and in turn believe them when they say they think things are better. besides, it was up to gw to listen to the playtesters(they weren't obligated to change everything the tester would address) and also the playtesters haven't always been excited about every single thing, the great guys at front line gaming on multiple occasions addressed the imbalances of the game. the playtester also have a much closer ear to the ground when it comes to knowing whats coming next from gw, so i am more inclined to take their word when they say batter changes are coming, instead of a random forum poster who says "ive known gw long enough to know they will never do good by us!"

SemperMortis is not a random poster

But seriously, play testers are not game developers. GW game developers obviously also have no experience with incorporation play tester feedback. Maybe they don't even have structured play testing at all and everybody just keeps bringing whatever army/units/models they feel like. Maybe their mindset is stuck in certain meta than evolved between play testers. Ever went to a new GW store/FLGS and completely wiped the floor with the local champion who had no clue how to fight against orks, because everyone there was just playing MEQ all the time?
Even if they are competitive gamers, they are not bound to find any loopholes. The seven storm ravens army didn't show up anywhere before some dude went and won a tourney that way - even though thousands of players were reading the leaked rules all over the globe. If they are actually aiming to get better at this they will.
Wizards of the Coast will soon have two decades of experience in play testing, designing and developing (I feel splitting the two is very important) MTG and they still have massive screw ups in their balancing every few years.

The index rules are... ok. Not great, but ok. Everybody agrees that it's better than the last two editions, and we've got one competitive list. If my math isn't failing me, that infinitely better than anything we had in our last codex

Niiru wrote:
Thinking of starting a new conversion for my orks, and it's probably going to be either a Big Trakk, or a Squiggoth. I was just wondering which of these would be more effective on the table -

Big Trakk -
- Supa Skorcha
- 2x Rokkit Launchas
- 2x Grot Sponsons
Tankbustas x6 -
- Boss Nob
- Rokkit Launchas x6
Total Points = 305


Squiggoth -
- Gorin' Horns
- Kannon
Tankbustas x10 -
- Boss Nob
- Rokkit Launchas x10
Total Points = 380


The Big Trakk seems to be killier in itself, and it's faster too.

The squiggoth can carry more boyz to do da killin' (and they can still shoot while the squiggoth is in combat). Also has +1 toughness and +3 Wounds.

Tough call. Hopefully you gitz will have some advice for me!

As an addition to this, I realised the Kill-Tanks can also transport troops, so I'm adding a third option to the list -

Kill-Tank -
- Twin Big-Shoota
- Giga-Shoota
- 2x Twin Big-Shoota
Tankbustas x10 -
- Boss Nob
- Rokkit Launchas x10
- Bomb Squigs x2
Total Points = 485


The most expensive option by far, but also the killiest. Midway in speed between the other options, but has +1 toughness over even the Squiggoth, and 6 more wounds. Bigger, killier, tougher, but more expensive to match.

Units transported by the Kill Tank only hit on sixes. Kill Tanks seem pretty good to me, but I probably wouldn't use them to transport Tankbustas. Melee and/or flamer units seem like a better fit.

Do we have anything FW or otherwise that would be viable in a transport other than just a means to move melee troops in safer?

Im gaining on finishing my gargantuan squiggoth so i started making a list and i just had a daunting realization: this thing has a special rule where units embarked can still shoot while it charges things...so i kinda feel obligated to find a way to utilize that. Problem is Tankbustas are HORRIBLY overpriced, flashgitz/lootas are Heavy and wouldnt appreciate a constantly charging platform, Burnas range and price is a no, and turning Nobz into a shooty unit via Kustom Shootas or Kombis sounds like an even more expensive idea lol.

i ended up just loading it with 19 shootaboyz and a bigmek. And that feels so lame to do...

Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:Units transported by the Kill Tank only hit on sixes. Kill Tanks seem pretty good to me, but I probably wouldn't use them to transport Tankbustas. Melee and/or flamer units seem like a better fit.

What unit would you recommend? I know hitting on 6's isn't ideal for tankbusters, but they do have the option of jumping out when they get where they're going. I don't currently have any trukks in my list (too boring, not orky enough haha). Tankbustas seemed to be the best option, in a codex of bad options. Burnas might work, but bad range and bad stats and hugely overpriced aren't a good combination. Could go with some nobs I guess?

Vineheart01 wrote:Do we have anything FW or otherwise that would be viable in a transport other than just a means to move melee troops in safer?

Im gaining on finishing my gargantuan squiggoth so i started making a list and i just had a daunting realization: this thing has a special rule where units embarked can still shoot while it charges things...so i kinda feel obligated to find a way to utilize that. Problem is Tankbustas are HORRIBLY overpriced, flashgitz/lootas are Heavy and wouldnt appreciate a constantly charging platform, Burnas range and price is a no, and turning Nobz into a shooty unit via Kustom Shootas or Kombis sounds like an even more expensive idea lol.

i ended up just loading it with 19 shootaboyz and a bigmek. And that feels so lame to do...

I thought Tankbustas would one of the only units in our codex that were actually *not* badly priced. I agree Burnas, flash gitz and lootas are all poor right now. I thought Tankbustas, along with Stormboyz, were our only worthwhile choices these days.

I might try pricing up a unit of Nobz myself.

Tankbustas arent "bad" against vehicles since they have literally our ONLY reroll in the entire army when hitting vehicles, 255pts for 15 BS5 rokkits that dies to a stiff breeze the instant the transport goes away isnt exactly idea.
Not to mention everything (except ork vehicles..go figure) has a 3+ armor, rokkits make that a 5+. They all have the HP to suffer 2-3 hits from a rokkit and not care too much.

i had a wagon with 15 tankbustas and a kff mek for about 4 games until i took them out. They did more work as a distraction than as a killing machine, since the idea of potential 15 3Damage shots does seem a little scary. In those 4 games i had ONE where they actually wrecked a vehicle pretty hard (the new SM dread whatever its called), all the rest i typically had max 2 attacks cause damage each round. Literally a 30man blob of shootaboyz would do more damage than that!

Have to realize, if i put them in the gargantuan squiggoth then thats 814pts basically stacked on top of one model. One model that i cant repair or heal either (thanks to Painboy for some reason not just saying nonvehicle in his rule). Doing so would require me to cut the deffdreads from my list and not having more than 1 source of obvious "Im gonna kill ya if ya dun kill meh first!" targets is a nono. All those stupid 100% accurate lascannons and plasmas would just shred this thing barring 5++ luck

Niiru wrote:

Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:Units transported by the Kill Tank only hit on sixes. Kill Tanks seem pretty good to me, but I probably wouldn't use them to transport Tankbustas. Melee and/or flamer units seem like a better fit.

What unit would you recommend? I know hitting on 6's isn't ideal for tankbusters, but they do have the option of jumping out when they get where they're going. I don't currently have any trukks in my list (too boring, not orky enough haha). Tankbustas seemed to be the best option, in a codex of bad options. Burnas might work, but bad range and bad stats and hugely overpriced aren't a good combination. Could go with some nobs I guess?

Vineheart01 wrote:Do we have anything FW or otherwise that would be viable in a transport other than just a means to move melee troops in safer?

Im gaining on finishing my gargantuan squiggoth so i started making a list and i just had a daunting realization: this thing has a special rule where units embarked can still shoot while it charges things...so i kinda feel obligated to find a way to utilize that. Problem is Tankbustas are HORRIBLY overpriced, flashgitz/lootas are Heavy and wouldnt appreciate a constantly charging platform, Burnas range and price is a no, and turning Nobz into a shooty unit via Kustom Shootas or Kombis sounds like an even more expensive idea lol.

i ended up just loading it with 19 shootaboyz and a bigmek. And that feels so lame to do...

I thought Tankbustas would one of the only units in our codex that were actually *not* badly priced. I agree Burnas, flash gitz and lootas are all poor right now. I thought Tankbustas, along with Stormboyz, were our only worthwhile choices these days.

I might try pricing up a unit of Nobz myself.

Ok well, a unit of 10 Nobz with Kombi-Skorchas and Power Stabbas comes up as 390 points. 398, if you fill up the kill tank's two spare seats with ammo runts. 200 points more than the tankbusta squad. Might be more effective, but it's hard to say. That would be one tank on the table worth 700 points.

Vineheart01 wrote:Tankbustas arent "bad" against vehicles since they have literally our ONLY reroll in the entire army when hitting vehicles, 255pts for 15 BS5 rokkits that dies to a stiff breeze the instant the transport goes away isnt exactly idea.
Not to mention everything (except ork vehicles..go figure) has a 3+ armor, rokkits make that a 5+. They all have the HP to suffer 2-3 hits from a rokkit and not care too much.

i had a wagon with 15 tankbustas and a kff mek for about 4 games until i took them out. They did more work as a distraction than as a killing machine, since the idea of potential 15 3Damage shots does seem a little scary. In those 4 games i had ONE where they actually wrecked a vehicle pretty hard (the new SM dread whatever its called), all the rest i typically had max 2 attacks cause damage each round. Literally a 30man blob of shootaboyz would do more damage than that!

Well, it seems a waste to put 12 boyz into a kill tank. And we don't seem to have any other units.

Ok well, a unit of 10 Nobz with Kombi-Skorchas and Power Stabbas comes up as 390 points. 398, if you fill up the kill tank's two spare seats with ammo runts. 200 points more than the tankbusta squad. Might be more effective, but it's hard to say. That would be one tank on the table worth 700 points.

I'm not sold on putting 700 points into units that die just as quick as if they were 250-300; that's too many eggs in one basket for Orks imo.

Has anyone seen the Primaris Redoubt in the Forgeworld Index: Astra Militarum? I didn't know about it until someone made a random thread, but... it's UNALIGNED with the following stats:

Primaris Redoubt - 300points [minimal loadout]

T8, W20, Sv3+, Sv5++
DT-LD: 96", Macro 2d3, S16, AP-3, D2d6
[Can also take up to 4 Heavy Bolters, + 1 other unique weapon]
BS4+; +1 to hit when targeting units with TITANIC
Can transport one unit of INFANTRY, up to 20 models; and transport any number of INFANTRY CHARACTERS

It's got better accuracy (especially vs Titans) than anything in our Index ('cept Bomb Squigs), 2+ to wound on most tanks, and solid damage if it connects - the 2d3 shots bothers me, but, what can you do. Probably best to keep it as cheap as possible, it's going to die regardless, and you're largely taking it for the DT-LD gun (that said, it has access to a Twin-Lascannon for 40 points; that's probably worth it).

I haven't mathed out if it's better than it's points in Tankbustas (plus accompanying vehicle) - but, since Orks have so many drops as it is; you could save this model as a later drop your opponent has deployed their armor and try to get some damage done if it survives the first round. Since it can transport a squad+characters, it can also reduce the number of drops in your army.

Maybe take two of them for 600 points as your anti-tank/distraction, then the rest in Boyz, and try to get to combat. ; That said, this gives your opponent a target for their anti-armor guns, which they normally might not have... it's no main battle tank, but for 300 points, it seems like a good stand-in.

You need internal AND external balance otherwise you can't play your army against anyone but other Ork players. And even here they failed miserably. Our transports are insanely over priced, Our Kustom shoota is 4pts and is basically a twin shoota...a shoota is free so why is a kustom shoota 4pts?

Internal balance means to me that you are likely to take any unit in the codex and be competitive against your opponent, instead of bringing 1-3 power units....that didn't happen. Almost the entirety of the Heavy weapons section could cease to be and my list wouldn't change, nor would most players tournament lists. Mek Gunz, Big Gunz, Dreadz, Kanz, Nauts, Stompas, Lootas...they are pretty much irrelevant because they suck so badly. The Elite section is Tank Bustas and Kommandos. Troops? Yep just boyz, how about fast attack? Just Stormboyz.

90% of our index is wasted ink and paper. Their is no internal balance in regards to my point, and as to external balance....ive proven that to be false as well in previous posts.

Well, if all units in the heavy support slot suck equally, that's internal balance, right?

Big Gunz are your shooty option, team. 27 points each with 2 gunners, 36" range with a S8 -2AP D6 dmg profile for tanks. That's the price of 1.5 lootaz, and the kannon has a D6 attack profile for infantry when needed.

I'm surprised they are not discussed more often in this thread.

edit: Kannons, of course.

hollow one wrote:
Big Gunz are your shooty option, team. 27 points each with 2 gunners, 36" range with a S8 -2AP D6 dmg profile for tanks. That's the price of 1.5 lootaz, and the kannon has a D6 attack profile for infantry when needed.

I'm surprised they are not discussed more often in this thread.

edit: Kannons, of course.

That's because many ork players are trying footslogging hordes and big gunz perform very badly in this kind of lists since they'll get all the opponent's anti tank dying turn 1. Big gunz/mek gunz can be decent only in armored lists, in which everything competes to soak the anti tank. Dread mobs or lists with several vehicles. I prefer tankbustas in trukks over kannons, they're more expensive but they do their job better, and tipycally orks don't need anti infantry weapons.

Niiru wrote:
Thinking of starting a new conversion for my orks, and it's probably going to be either a Big Trakk, or a Squiggoth. I was just wondering which of these would be more effective on the table -

Big Trakk -
- Supa Skorcha
- 2x Rokkit Launchas
- 2x Grot Sponsons
Tankbustas x6 -
- Boss Nob
- Rokkit Launchas x6
Total Points = 305


Squiggoth -
- Gorin' Horns
- Kannon
Tankbustas x10 -
- Boss Nob
- Rokkit Launchas x10
Total Points = 380


The Big Trakk seems to be killier in itself, and it's faster too.

The squiggoth can carry more boyz to do da killin' (and they can still shoot while the squiggoth is in combat). Also has +1 toughness and +3 Wounds.

Tough call. Hopefully you gitz will have some advice for me!

I am using Big Trakks a lot now
Big Trakk Super Skorcha
Tankbusta x5 With boss
Bombsquig

and Big Trakk Supa Skorcha
Nobz x5 Big Choppa and shoota
Warboss BigChoppa Shoota and attack squig

I am currently running Two of the nob carriers and one tankbusta in a 1500 point list When going to 2k I am planning on adding another tankbusta bigtrakk unit and more boyz to to this list https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/736366.page#9554390
I will consider adding rokkit racks as well to the big trakks

morfydd wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Thinking of starting a new conversion for my orks, and it's probably going to be either a Big Trakk, or a Squiggoth. I was just wondering which of these would be more effective on the table -

Big Trakk -
- Supa Skorcha
- 2x Rokkit Launchas
- 2x Grot Sponsons
Tankbustas x6 -
- Boss Nob
- Rokkit Launchas x6
Total Points = 305


Squiggoth -
- Gorin' Horns
- Kannon
Tankbustas x10 -
- Boss Nob
- Rokkit Launchas x10
Total Points = 380


The Big Trakk seems to be killier in itself, and it's faster too.

The squiggoth can carry more boyz to do da killin' (and they can still shoot while the squiggoth is in combat). Also has +1 toughness and +3 Wounds.

Tough call. Hopefully you gitz will have some advice for me!

I am using Big Trakks a lot now
Big Trakk Super Skorcha
Tankbusta x5 With boss
Bombsquig

and Big Trakk Supa Skorcha
Nobz x5 Big Choppa and shoota
Warboss BigChoppa Shoota and attack squig

I am currently running Two of the nob carriers and one tankbusta in a 1500 point list When going to 2k I am planning on adding another tankbusta bigtrakk unit and more boyz to to this list https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/736366.page#9554390
I will consider adding rokkit racks as well to the big trakks

Yeh I've had a couple other recommendations of the Big Trakk, was kinda surprised more people didn't vote for the Kill-Tank as it is pretty beasty and hard to kill. It also seems to be the only thing for Orks that isn't hugely overpriced.

Noone seems to like the Squiggoth. Poor Squiggly.

 Blackie wrote:

hollow one wrote:
Big Gunz are your shooty option, team. 27 points each with 2 gunners, 36" range with a S8 -2AP D6 dmg profile for tanks. That's the price of 1.5 lootaz, and the kannon has a D6 attack profile for infantry when needed.

I'm surprised they are not discussed more often in this thread.

edit: Kannons, of course.

That's because many ork players are trying footslogging hordes and big gunz perform very badly in this kind of lists since they'll get all the opponent's anti tank dying turn 1. Big gunz/mek gunz can be decent only in armored lists, in which everything competes to soak the anti tank. Dread mobs or lists with several vehicles. I prefer tankbustas in trukks over kannons, they're more expensive but they do their job better, and tipycally orks don't need anti infantry weapons.

That's what I'm experimenting with now. I ran a hybrid walker list last night (60 boyz, 1 morkanaut, 3 dreads, 6 kanz) because I haven't finished painting my horde list or full walker list. It really didn't work too well since it was extremely obvious where to focus what kind of fire. In a full dread mob, anti-infantry has to be used on kanz pretty much exclusively since it won't do much against dreads or nauts, and it'll overload their anti-tank options. The inverse is true for hordes, but running half and half just doesn't work. That being said, bringing mek gunz to at least cripple their tanks would have helped a lot.

It's just frustrating to me that we have so few options in list building.

I use 2-3 BW with Supa kannon for my tankbustas. It is a nice transport and adds some ranged anti tank.

What do you think about it? I think it's a solid choice and easy to convert from a regular BW.
30 pts for 60" 2D6 rokkit launcher's shots seems decent

Considering i have 5 battlewagons ive been looking at the Supakannons. It looks promising to me

218pts for a Supakannon w/ 6 Bigshootas and an 'Ard Case sounds cool to me. Loss of Open Topped for 6 whopping models isnt that big of a deal since probably all you want in there anyway is a mek/bigmek for repairs/kff (though think i'd rather have the KFF outside and covering my walkers too and cover the BW for the first couple turns or so).
Could shave 24pts by taking the bigshootas off since it has 60" range, but lets be honest if you put it that far back its going to get Deepstriked instantly. Might as well have it up a little bit so the footKFF can cover it w/o being dedicated to it.

 Blackie wrote:

hollow one wrote:
Big Gunz are your shooty option, team. 27 points each with 2 gunners, 36" range with a S8 -2AP D6 dmg profile for tanks. That's the price of 1.5 lootaz, and the kannon has a D6 attack profile for infantry when needed.

I'm surprised they are not discussed more often in this thread.

edit: Kannons, of course.

That's because many ork players are trying footslogging hordes and big gunz perform very badly in this kind of lists since they'll get all the opponent's anti tank dying turn 1. Big gunz/mek gunz can be decent only in armored lists, in which everything competes to soak the anti tank. Dread mobs or lists with several vehicles. I prefer tankbustas in trukks over kannons, they're more expensive but they do their job better, and tipycally orks don't need anti infantry weapons.

In my experience they also don't work well with battlewagons because of the opposite reason: They eat all the damage that isn't hurting T8 battlewagons efficiently (heavy bolters, assault and autocannons, scatter lasers etc), plus anything that can deep strike will wipe multiple kannons and/or gunner units per turn, usually leaving them destroyed by end of turn two - because there is no one left in the back to help them.
If you start investing in gretchin, a kff or more to keep them alive, they start becoming too expensive and leave you with too little offensive power.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Considering i have 5 battlewagons ive been looking at the Supakannons. It looks promising to me

218pts for a Supakannon w/ 6 Bigshootas and an 'Ard Case sounds cool to me. Loss of Open Topped for 6 whopping models isnt that big of a deal since probably all you want in there anyway is a mek/bigmek for repairs/kff (though think i'd rather have the KFF outside and covering my walkers too and cover the BW for the first couple turns or so).
Could shave 24pts by taking the bigshootas off since it has 60" range, but lets be honest if you put it that far back its going to get Deepstriked instantly. Might as well have it up a little bit so the footKFF can cover it w/o being dedicated to it.

I run only open topped ones w supa kannons. 191 pts wagon + 6 TBustas in each one.
It's our best tank/transport imho

hollow one wrote:
Big Gunz are your shooty option, team. 27 points each with 2 gunners, 36" range with a S8 -2AP D6 dmg profile for tanks. That's the price of 1.5 lootaz, and the kannon has a D6 attack profile for infantry when needed.

I'm surprised they are not discussed more often in this thread.

edit: Kannons, of course.

Because they are 27 points with the statline of a rokkit launcher?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Considering i have 5 battlewagons ive been looking at the Supakannons. It looks promising to me

218pts for a Supakannon w/ 6 Bigshootas and an 'Ard Case sounds cool to me. Loss of Open Topped for 6 whopping models isnt that big of a deal since probably all you want in there anyway is a mek/bigmek for repairs/kff (though think i'd rather have the KFF outside and covering my walkers too and cover the BW for the first couple turns or so).
Could shave 24pts by taking the bigshootas off since it has 60" range, but lets be honest if you put it that far back its going to get Deepstriked instantly. Might as well have it up a little bit so the footKFF can cover it w/o being dedicated to it.

I think the best way of running battlewagons is with deff-rollas, hard top and some close-combat oriented stuff and characters inside. If you want to run tankbustas, you should put them in trukks. But anything with more than one wound that is not a character will be hard-countered by scions.

27pts for 3 Wounds, Toughness 5, and Save 5+?

Works out at 9pts per wound. I'd buy that for a dollar.

You could just drop two rokkit launchas in any boyz mob for 24...

Moriarty wrote:
27pts for 3 Wounds, Toughness 5, and Save 5+?

Works out at 9pts per wound. I'd buy that for a dollar.

Its also an easy first blood kill since as you pointed out its only T5 and a 5+ save and depending on where your grots are they can literally just dedicate a couple bolters shots to kill the grots and leave the kannon basically useless for the rest of the game. No, Big Gunz and Mek gunz are crap right now because of the wording for their unit and because they completely lack offensive ability. In a lot of games you have weapons similar to this, they are called Glass Cannons. They put out a lot of firepower but die really quickly, the difference is that in this case these are more inline with Glass Peashooters, because they don't have a lot of firepower but still die to a stiff Breeze.

To the person who joking said Internal balance in regards to heavy support options very true, they are all equally worthless so internal balance achieved. Sucks that I have 5 Mek Gunz, 12 Kanz, 2 Dreadz, 30ish Lootas and a morkanaut sitting on my shelf collecting dust, ironically they have a lot of company, they share that shelf with my 35ish Bikers, Dakkajet and 3 Trukkz.

Niiru wrote:

Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:Units transported by the Kill Tank only hit on sixes. Kill Tanks seem pretty good to me, but I probably wouldn't use them to transport Tankbustas. Melee and/or flamer units seem like a better fit.

What unit would you recommend? I know hitting on 6's isn't ideal for tankbusters, but they do have the option of jumping out when they get where they're going. I don't currently have any trukks in my list (too boring, not orky enough haha). Tankbustas seemed to be the best option, in a codex of bad options. Burnas might work, but bad range and bad stats and hugely overpriced aren't a good combination. Could go with some nobs I guess?

I would guess it depends on what you want the Kill Tank to do, and what else is in your army.

I actually think that regular Boyz aren't a bad idea if the primary purpose of the Kill Tank is its shooting and not its transport ability. The Boyz aren't expensive, they fill up Troop choices helping get more command points and they have (or they're going to have pretty soon) Objective Secured. The Boyz are there to jump off and bubblewrap the Kill Tank if the enemy is trying to keep it tied up in assault. They're also there to jump off at the end of the game to claim objectives. I'm thinking about running 3x Kill Burstas each with a minimum squad of Boyz, and I'll have a Super Heavy Detachment as well as a Batallion Detachment for a decent number of Command Points.

The Kill Tank would be a durable transport for an expensive melee unit, like MANz, but that's putting a lot of points in one basket. Kombi-Skorcha Nobz might also be a good match, but again that's a lot of points. The thing with the Kill Tank is that you have good firepower, but you pay for it (the cost seems pretty fair to me). However, since we pay for the firepower using it primarily as a transport doesn't seem like a really efficient use of points. The rule that passengers only hit on 6s means that it doesn't make a very good fire base for them. That's why I think the best unit to ride around in it would probably be a medium-cost melee unit (Nobz, Burna Boyz) or just regular Boyz because regular Boyz are really good for the points and useful for other things (ObSec, filling out Troops slots for Command Points).

Of course, with Chapter Approved and the Codex things will probably change quite a bit.

hollow one wrote:
Big Gunz are your shooty option, team. 27 points each with 2 gunners, 36" range with a S8 -2AP D6 dmg profile for tanks. That's the price of 1.5 lootaz, and the kannon has a D6 attack profile for infantry when needed.

I'm surprised they are not discussed more often in this thread.

edit: Kannons, of course.

Yeah i like the Big Guns as well.
Often combine them with Mek Guns and keep them close so the most important Guns can shoot a bit longer.

They work very well with Shooty Gunline orks because they screen all my backyard from deepstriking stuff.

Since in front of my gunline i put some boys / grots and all the 24" dakka in second row they survive surprisingly long.

I just miss the old ammu runts you could use for the Big guns. Made Zzap Guns really good.

Some lobbas are also good to "sniper" small non-character units, especially enemy lobbas.


The easy killpoint does not really matter since orks go more second than first and that killpoint comes 90%+ of the time anyway for the player with first turn.

I'm flabbergasted that Mek Gunz have a 5+. I thought they kept their 3+ from last edition.

Colour me surprised.

I imagine IG Heavy Weapon Teams have a lot of the same problems that Big Gunz do. It seems like they're vulnerable to anti-infantry weapons while at the same time being expensive enough to be worth shooting at with anti-tank weapons.

In my limited personal experience my Big Gunz weren't immediately wiped off the table, but at the same time they failed to do much damage. I think that was partly a combination of my opponent having more pressing targets to shoot his weapons at and bad rolling on my part.

One small change I would like to see is for them to adjust the cost of the Big Gunz weapons down while adjusting the cost of the Big Gunz themselves up to whatever is appropriate, which might make them worth taking on Battle Wagons.

 Blackie wrote:

hollow one wrote:
Big Gunz are your shooty option, team. 27 points each with 2 gunners, 36" range with a S8 -2AP D6 dmg profile for tanks. That's the price of 1.5 lootaz, and the kannon has a D6 attack profile for infantry when needed.

I'm surprised they are not discussed more often in this thread.

edit: Kannons, of course.

That's because many ork players are trying footslogging hordes and big gunz perform very badly in this kind of lists since they'll get all the opponent's anti tank dying turn 1. Big gunz/mek gunz can be decent only in armored lists, in which everything competes to soak the anti tank. Dread mobs or lists with several vehicles. I prefer tankbustas in trukks over kannons, they're more expensive but they do their job better, and tipycally orks don't need anti infantry weapons.

They're not only more expensive, but you've put them in an armoured unit so they fall to the same problem you are describing the big gunz fall to, high ap focus fire. Big Gunz are certainly more resilient, the grots can not be targetted and can fan out to protect from deep strikes, and the mek itself has 3 wounds T5.

pismakron wrote:


Because they are 27 points with the statline of a rokkit launcher?

Come on mate, 4+ to hit with +12" range, at least three times the durability of a tank busta. And if you're throwing rokkits in your boyz crew then they are hitting on 6's arnt they, no one's keeping their boyz stationary so their rokkits get +1. So really we are talking about three times the effectiveness of a rokkit on a boy. Maybe you were comparing rokkits on your battlewagon? Then the four moving rokkits cost about 50 points each right?

SemperMortis wrote:

Moriarty wrote:
27pts for 3 Wounds, Toughness 5, and Save 5+?

Works out at 9pts per wound. I'd buy that for a dollar.

Its also an easy first blood kill since as you pointed out its only T5 and a 5+ save and depending on where your grots are they can literally just dedicate a couple bolters shots to kill the grots and leave the kannon basically useless for the rest of the game. No, Big Gunz and Mek gunz are crap right now because of the wording for their unit and because they completely lack offensive ability. In a lot of games you have weapons similar to this, they are called Glass Cannons. They put out a lot of firepower but die really quickly, the difference is that in this case these are more inline with Glass Peashooters, because they don't have a lot of firepower but still die to a stiff Breeze.

Grots cant be targetted unless they are the closest enemy unit, as per Take Cover rule. And the versatility of Kannon's being able to shoot a D6 attack profile is something everyone is also ignoring.

If i had multiple of these things I would definitely be bringing them, the cost per wound, 4+ to hit, high damage or high attacks, can spread out heaps to protect from deep strike and own objectives. I'd bring 10 minimum to support my green tide. Unfortunately I do feel that they are an easy first blood, and I've got to say that is a pretty huge negative. Killing one mek is a single unit after deployment.

edit: side note, i've been bringing Flash Gitz in place of this at the moment, they are 27 each not including the ammo runt, which I think is probably worth it for the reroll alone. However, so far they are typically only in range of units that are in combat and I'm finding that I have to do weird things to make them useful, like falling a squad a boyz back to get the heavy fire in before another squad makes a new charge and suffers overwatch. I'm skeptical of Flash Gitz so far, but I have the models so I'm doubling down on them and bringing kaptin badrukk for the rerolls to see if I can make them worth anything. Also interesting to note, they have a nob w/ choppa stat line in melee, which isn't irrelevant, S5 A3 WS3+, so they are not as vulnerable as most shooting lines when they are in combat. I've had that underestimated by my opponents before.

Big Gunz are not bad, but they are definitely mediocre. They are just a bit to expensive to be good. And because of the template-nerf, kannon frag grenades and lobbas are absolutely atrocious.

But I disagree that all heavy support choices are useless. The battlewagon, gorkanaut and kmk are almost above average. Their real problem is that hordes of Boyz + Characters are much better against pretty much everything. And that is true of most of the index.

pismakron wrote:
Big Gunz are not bad, but they are definitely mediocre. They are just a bit to expensive to be good. And because of the template-nerf, kannon frag grenades and lobbas are absolutely atrocious.

But I disagree that all heavy support choices are useless. The battlewagon, gorkanaut and kmk are almost above average. Their real problem is that hordes of Boyz + Characters are much better against pretty much everything. And that is true of most of the index.

Personally I like durable, stationary units for objective control. And I think that element of an army is essential if you want to win instead of just get tabled or table your opponent. Green tide has nothing that does anything if it is standing around, i feel like you need this type of support to win. Even if the big gunz take the las cannon shots and die, the grots are still hanging around on that objective and will waste resources from the opponent. And to your point, I think the trukk is the only viable transport option, and the BW and Gork are simply too expensive for what they do.