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HQ - 310
Daemon Prince, Wings, Lash of Submission
Daemon Prince, Wings, Lash of Submission

Troops - 990
8x Plague Marines, 2x Plasma gun, Rhino with Combi Plasmagun
8x Plague Marines, 2x Plasma gun, Rhino with Combi Plasmagun
7x Plague Marines, 2x Plasma gun, Rhino with Combi Plasmagun
7x Plague Marines, 2x Plasma gun, Rhino with Combi Plasmagun

Heavy Support - 450
Defiler, 4 DCCW
Defiler, 4 DCCW.
Defiler, 4 DCCW.

Tactics: The Defilers are kept behind the Rhinos so that they get a cover save. The DPs lash opponent units that are then targeted by Defiler shells and Plague Marines.

this might fare well in tournaments. but in my honest opinion it looks boring to play with.
no offense. i know opinions differ.
i just like variety and i have to say, that's why i only play casual and friendly games.
the list looks rather powerfull though.

Defilers can't get four Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons. They can have two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons and two Close Combat Weapons.

[incorrect]A Daemon Prince with Wings and the Lash of Submission must have a Mark of Slaanesh, bringing its cost to 160pts, and two of which would be 320pts.[/incorrect]

Winged Lash Princes are 155. As a CSM player, that number has been burned onto my cornea.

Why plasma guns instead of melta?

If you drop some plague marines (one squad + another plague marine) and switch to meltas you can get 3 dreadnoughts.

This is 1708 pts:
2 x Lash Princes
3 x 7 Plague Marines w/ 2 Meltaguns each, rhinos
3 x combat defilers
3 x combat dreadnoughts

Berzerkers would work decently as well.

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy:

I'm sorry, but your opinion on the points value of Daemon Princes with Wings and the Lash of Submission is incorrect:

110 - Daemon Prince
005 - Mark of Slaanesh
020 - Wings
025 - Lash of Submission [wrong! oops]
160 - Total

Lash is 20 points, not 25.

Needs moar Oblits. Defilers aren't any good and probably won't end up with cover from Rhinos the majority of times.

Hmm, need to lay off the eggnog!

Defilers are great. Remember that line of sight is required to their hulls, and that their arms and legs don't count.

Perhaps consider swapping some of the 7-man plague marine squads for some Noise Marines? The additional firepower would be more than welcome.

Yeah, I thought this list could be an alternative to the Obliterator-spam lists.
It is boring but can be rather effective: Defiler shells vs hordes and MEQ, and plasma goodness vs Termies or Greater Daemons.
Marvin, the Dreadnought variant looks really interesting.

Nurglitch wrote: Hmm, need to lay off the eggnog!

Defilers are great. Remember that line of sight is required to their hulls, and that their arms and legs don't count.

The vehicle line LOS rules don't actually say anything about arms and legs, just superfluous decorations and so on. the quote, from page 60: "...it must be able to see it's hull or turret (ignoring the vehicle's gun barrels, antennas, decorative banner poles, etc.)" If you ask me, a Defiler's legs and arms don't fit into any of those categories, and are the hull. Same goes for Soul Grinders, poor guys.

The Defenestrator wrote:

Nurglitch wrote: Hmm, need to lay off the eggnog!

Defilers are great. Remember that line of sight is required to their hulls, and that their arms and legs don't count.

The vehicle line LOS rules don't actually say anything about arms and legs, just superfluous decorations and so on. the quote, from page 60: "...it must be able to see it's hull or turret (ignoring the vehicle's gun barrels, antennas, decorative banner poles, etc.)" If you ask me, a Defiler's legs and arms don't fit into any of those categories, and are the hull. Same goes for Soul Grinders, poor guys.

Indeed, arms and legs, this was 4th ed.
The Defilers can eventually get a cover save from the Rhinos.

you need meltas on your plague marines, otherwise you cant kill tanks. you will probably do passably aginst horde, but mech armies and nidzilla will eat you.

See p.72: Shooting At Walkers:
"When firing at a walker, work out which of its Armour values to use as you would for any other vehicle, based on the position of its body."

Nurglitch wrote:See p.72: Shooting At Walkers:
"When firing at a walker, work out which of its Armour values to use as you would for any other vehicle, based on the position of its body."

It doesn't say "arms and legs don't count" or anything close, I think it just then refers you back to the previously quoted vehicle page, which then just tells you to ignore gun barrels, antennas, etc.

Yeah, that's also my impression.

A cover save depends only on whether half of the tank/walker is obscured.

No, the text is pretty clear that in the case of ordinary vehicles it's the turret and the hull that counts for when the vehicle is obscured, and that the body of a walker is what counts for a walker.

I'd drop the combi-weapons on the rhinos. Take extra armour or havoc launchers if you want to upgrade. I don't think the defilers are going to get cover from a measly rhino. I agree with targetawg that the legs and head count as hull, in both the letter and spirit of the rules. I play CSM and Orks and believe that you will have trouble in close combat. You have nothing that can rip through armour during CC in any of your marine squads, either agains MEQs or vehicles. I wouldn't count on 3 battlecannon shots doing the trick against vehicles since they will most likely drift and if the center hole isn't over the vehicle the hit is 1/2 str. If I was playing the army I would drop one defiler and add two obliterators (maybe drop two and go with 4 oblits), switch two plasmas to a meltagun (in the squads destined to take objectives on the enemies side of the board), and remove the combi-weapons from the rhinos in favor of PW/PF for at least two of the squads. You'll be able to actually kill stuff in CC, and the obliterators can target stuff without drift from up to 48" away, and you'll still have your blast templates against troops with 2 plasma cannons if you wish, not even mentioning the superior ability to take advantage of cover if something manages to avoid thier armor save. The only advantages that defilers have in my opinion are a longer range and the opponents inability to lash them themselves.


A bit of a ramble,

Merry Christmas!

Thalor

Nurglitch wrote:No, the text is pretty clear that in the case of ordinary vehicles it's the turret and the hull that counts for when the vehicle is obscured, and that the body of a walker is what counts for a walker.

What does the word "body" mean.

My "body" includes arms and legs, don't know about yours. You're reading the word "body" as the word "torso" and theres a big difference in that.

My body does not include any capes, streamers, or banner poles i may be carrying.

In the case of a walker, I'd read "Body" as including the major appendages. Otherwise we're shooting at tiny floating blocks in the case of dreadnaughts and small floating rectangles in the case of defilers.

I play a very similar list, I agree, it is strong, but I like variety because I play with friends. I'm going to work in Noise Marines.

My list always have Obliterators. I also have 1 lash and 1 nurgle daemon prince, this makes the one up front harder to kill while the one in the back lashes everything closer.

targetawg:

I agree, ordinarily when we talk of bodies we talk of both our torsos and its extremities.

In Warhammer 40k, however, the 'body' of a walker is equivalent to the hull and turret of a normal vehicle.

Remember that the qualification of hull and turret excludes things like gun barrels as well as frippery like antenna and decorative banner poles.

I like to think of it like this: A walker can move its limbs in relation to its body, just as a tank may move its guns in relation to its hull. Since the position of the model is then defined by the part that the other parts move around, with that part being the hull and turret on a regular vehicle and the moving parts being gun barrels and other parts (grabba? wrecking ball?), the equivalent 'hull and turret' of a walker must be its body excluding its limbs.

Basically the rules require us to calculate line of sight from the parts that will be there regardless, not the parts that may move around but may be fixed on the model.

Imagine, for example, a Defiler coquetteishly extending a leg from behind a building. The leg has been glued in place so it maintains that position regardless of whether the Defiler the model represents is moving, hiding, or doing whatever. Do you have a line of sight? No, the Defiler's body is concealed, and what can be seen is simply an extremity that may not even be there.

Nurglitch wrote:targetawg:
In Warhammer 40k, however, the 'body' of a walker is equivalent to the hull and turret of a normal vehicle.

Where does it say this? I don't know of anywhere that defines the body of a walker being equivalent to the hull and turret of a normal vehicle, or the hull and turret of a normal vehicle being the "body".

Actually, pg. 72 should finish this up

"If a walker does not have a base (like the chaos defiler), measure to and from its hull (including its legs and other limbs) as for normal vehicles."

All right now that that's cleared up. I think you should drop all the defilers and add 6 Oblits. Then change two of the PM squads to 2x Melta. Then change the other two to 1x Plas, 1x Flamer. Then they can sit on objectives in their rhinos and double tap the plasma out of the hatch. Then if things get tight jump out double tapping plasma and bolters with a flamer in there. With the left over points get Havoc launchers for the Plas/Flamer rhinos.

All right now that that's cleared up. I think you should drop all the defilers and add 6 Oblits. Then change two of the PM squads to 2x Melta. Then change the other two to 1x Plas, 1x Flamer.

Well, then the list would be like all other strong CSM lists.

targetawg:

On p.60, "Shooting At Vehicles", it says:

"When a unit fires at a vehicle it must be able to see its hull or turret (ignoring the vehicle's gun barrels, antennas, decorative banner poles, etc.).

On p.72, "Shooting At Walkers", it says:

"When firing at a walker, work out which of its Armour Values to use as you would for any other vehicle, based on the position of its body."

Hence where a normal vehicle has a hull or turret, a walker has a body.

The quote you have taken it not from the section on Shooting At Walkers, it is from the section on Measuring Ranges. You measure "ranges and distances" to and from the closest part of the Defiler, if it is unbased, and measuring is not determining line of sight. Determining line of sight is covered by Shooting At Walkers.

Which says to measure to the walkers body.

Nowhere does it say that its body doesn't include the arms and legs, as you argue.

It also implies that they are part of the body or "hull"

"measure to and from its hull (including legs and other limbs) as with other vehicles"

We should probably stop arguing this in an army list thread, if you really aren't convinced that the legs and arms count (which is just a hold over from 4th edition where it did say this) we can put it up on YMDC and see what they say.

targetawg wrote:
"measure to and from its hull (including legs and other limbs) as with other vehicles"

Not really going to jump into this and try to argue a point but with measuring distance to see if the target is in range you can target a leg if that is the only thing you can see. But if I'm reading correctly what Nurglitch is saying is that you can only target(measure to) the hull of the vehicle. I'm going to have to say targetawg is right. Look at it this way. In the odd circumstance that you can't see the top half of the defiler and only it's legs are you then for some reason not able to fire at it? That if playing by Nurglitch's way would be the case. Though playing by RAR it would not be. For cover save purposes the defilers entire structure counts as the vehicle since you can target any part of the vehicle to fire at it.

A CSM list with 2x Lash princes.... Plague marines.... WTF I have never seen this before!!!!!!