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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 03:29:07
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Stalwart Space Marine
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I just got my necron codex today and noticed that Pariahs, while awesome, seem to be somewhat lacking. They lack WBB, have I3, and one attack. Being a close-combat unit, this seems somewhat disadvantageous. MEQ would rip them to bits; however, they could be effective against something that is neither MEQ, nor Orks (but then again, orks pwn everything). The warscythes ignoring every save means that whatever they hit will most likely die, which makes up for having one attack; but the problem is, you still have to attack. A tac squad of space marines will probably rip through a squad of Pariahs, even with a lord, before they get to attack. That I3 really nags on me in our MEQ saturated gaming community.
Downgrading everyone's Ld to 7 seems like it could be useful. If someone used pinning weapons on the Ld7 squads, the pariahs might get along a little better. Unfortunately, necrons have no pinning weapons.
Then there's the whole "psyker scare" ability. If I were playing, say, Eldar, this could be of some use. Making a Farseer run away in fear makes me laugh.
Also, this "close-combat" unit is more like a beefier squad of immortals, what with having built-in gauss blasters. A full round of shooting on, say, Fire Warriors, would be devastating.
In retrospect, I think I might end up taking some Pariahs (with a lord to back them up), but I'm still troubled by the lack of WBB and the impact on Phase Out.
Your thoughts?
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"Do you guys know where the fire extinguisher is?"
"You wish to douse His Holy Flame? You skirt heresy brother." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 03:53:21
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Dominar
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Unless you frequently find yourself doing battle with large units of Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers, Pariahs are Not Worth It.
Anything that a Pariah can kill (save assault terminators with thunderhammers), Necron Warriors/Destroyers can simply shoot to death.
And anything that Pariahs can't kill, you're better off trying to shoot to death with Necron Warriors/Destroyers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 04:00:42
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Stalwart Space Marine
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sourclams wrote:Unless you frequently find yourself doing battle with large units of Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers, Pariahs are Not Worth It. Anything that a Pariah can kill (save assault terminators with thunderhammers), Necron Warriors/Destroyers can simply shoot to death. And anything that Pariahs can't kill, you're better off trying to shoot to death with Necron Warriors/Destroyers. So they're basically just a no-no all around?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/12/27 04:10:10
"Do you guys know where the fire extinguisher is?"
"You wish to douse His Holy Flame? You skirt heresy brother." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 04:11:44
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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PestilenceBlossom:
A couple of things to remember:
1. Pariahs are Fearless, so they won't get mopped up as easily as Necrons in close combat.
2. Pariahs don't have We'll Be Back, which sucks, but they also don't have to take a double-unit like Immortals, so handy for small games.
3. They have Gauss Blasters as well as Warscythes. They can shoot, if not as efficiently as Immortals, and they can fight in combat, if not as efficiently as Flayed Ones (or as effective as Wraiths, etc).
4. They're Soulless, and that's measured from the models, so that you can cover a large area.
5. They're Psychic Abominations, which is alright, but nothing to write home about.
6. They can be lead by Necron Lords, who can use wargear like the Nightmare Shroud to synergize with their Soulless rule.
Basically, don't think of them as a shooting unit or a close combat unit, think of them as a buffing unit, a unit that improves the stuff that other Necrons can do. Sure, they can shoot a bit and fight a bit, but what you want them to do is awful things to the morale of enemies that your Necrons are fighting, or vile things to I2- enemies that they can charge.
Screen them with a unit of Warriors and they'll get a 4+ cover save, as well as a speed-bump for whatever might charge them. Always have them escort a Necron Lord using defensive items like the Gaze of Flame, the Solar Pulse, the Lightening Field, and so on. On the charge they'll get two attacks, which isn't great, but at least they're at S5 following two S5 Gauss attacks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 04:15:36
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Stalwart Space Marine
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Nurglitch wrote:PestilenceBlossom: A couple of things to remember: 1. Pariahs are Fearless, so they won't get mopped up as easily as Necrons in close combat. 2. Pariahs don't have We'll Be Back, which sucks, but they also don't have to take a double-unit like Immortals, so handy for small games. 3. They have Gauss Blasters as well as Warscythes. They can shoot, if not as efficiently as Immortals, and they can fight in combat, if not as efficiently as Flayed Ones (or as effective as Wraiths, etc). 4. They're Soulless, and that's measured from the models, so that you can cover a large area. 5. They're Psychic Abominations, which is alright, but nothing to write home about. 6. They can be lead by Necron Lords, who can use wargear like the Nightmare Shroud to synergize with their Soulless rule. Basically, don't think of them as a shooting unit or a close combat unit, think of them as a buffing unit, a unit that improves the stuff that other Necrons can do. Sure, they can shoot a bit and fight a bit, but what you want them to do is awful things to the morale of enemies that your Necrons are fighting, or vile things to I2- enemies that they can charge. Screen them with a unit of Warriors and they'll get a 4+ cover save, as well as a speed-bump for whatever might charge them. Always have them escort a Necron Lord using defensive items like the Gaze of Flame, the Solar Pulse, the Lightening Field, and so on. On the charge they'll get two attacks, which isn't great, but at least they're at S5 following two S5 Gauss attacks.
I forgot all about charge...
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/12/27 04:20:44
"Do you guys know where the fire extinguisher is?"
"You wish to douse His Holy Flame? You skirt heresy brother." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 04:25:36
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Make sure that they don't charge them in alone. They're there to support other units, not do anything by themselves. Unless those other units are stuff like Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 04:44:15
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Dominar
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That's the crux of the problem. What other Necron assault unit would they be charging in with? There's not a whole lot to choose from.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 04:48:49
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Wraiths, Flayed Ones, Scarabs, C'tan, Necron Lords, and Tomb Spyders.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 04:51:56
Subject: Re:Egads! Pariahs!
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Stalwart Space Marine
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I might be better off just taking wraiths for my cc unit lol. I6, S6, 3+ inv save, and 4A on a charge? Awesome. However tempting 10 warscythe attacks may be, that I3 and lack of WBB will always screw them over.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/12/27 05:12:57
"Do you guys know where the fire extinguisher is?"
"You wish to douse His Holy Flame? You skirt heresy brother." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 04:59:20
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Yes, but that's because the Wraiths are a close combat unit. That's all they do. Don't take Pariahs for a close combat unit, they aren't one. Take them to support the close combat troops you plan to take.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 05:11:44
Subject: Re:Egads! Pariahs!
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Stalwart Space Marine
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I think I just had a great, albeit suicidal idea. Suppose I have a 5 man squad of Pariahs with an attached Lord; the necron lord has a Veil of Darkness and Nightmare Shroud. On the first turn, the lord deep strikes his unit into the densest pocket of enemy infantry (say fire warriors), and then uses his nightmare shroud, taking advantage of the Pariah's fear ability. With a lot of luck, most affected units will run off their own table edge and be destroyed. For some reason, I think I might not be able to do this. A rule feels like it's niggling at the back of my brain. The lord also wouldn't have enough points for a resurrrection orb, so if he kicks it, he might stay dead.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/27 05:13:29
"Do you guys know where the fire extinguisher is?"
"You wish to douse His Holy Flame? You skirt heresy brother." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 05:46:01
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Sinewy Scourge
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They don't count towards your phase out number and with high points cost for almost any other unit in the necron army I don't think the Pariahs are worth it. Just too many points for a unit that doesn't support the rest of the army well. IMO
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Salamander Marines 65-12-13
Dark Eldar Wych Cult 4-1-0
Dark Eldar Kabal 36-10-4
2010 Indy GT Tournament Record: 11-6-3
Golden Ticket Winner with Dark Eldar
Timmah wrote:Best way to use lysander:
Set in your storage bin, pick up vulkan model, place in list. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 06:31:36
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Stalwart Space Marine
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asugradinwa wrote:They don't count towards your phase out number and with high points cost for almost any other unit in the necron army I don't think the Pariahs are worth it. Just too many points for a unit that doesn't support the rest of the army well. IMO
But it's fun to indulge, no?
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"Do you guys know where the fire extinguisher is?"
"You wish to douse His Holy Flame? You skirt heresy brother." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 19:06:43
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Something also important to remember is that because Pariahs are not Necrons, they can't be teleported by the Veil of Darkness.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 19:31:26
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Stalwart Space Marine
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Nurglitch wrote:Something also important to remember is that because Pariahs are not Necrons, they can't be teleported by the Veil of Darkness. GOD DAMMIT. Now I'm never going to use Pariahs...That "I'm not a necron, HURR" rule means they will never hit my table. Unless I can get them to back up flayed ones or something...MOAR IMMORTALZ PLZ.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/27 19:32:52
"Do you guys know where the fire extinguisher is?"
"You wish to douse His Holy Flame? You skirt heresy brother." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 19:49:53
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Missionary On A Mission
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PestilenceBlossom wrote:Nurglitch wrote:Something also important to remember is that because Pariahs are not Necrons, they can't be teleported by the Veil of Darkness.
Now I'm never going to use Pariahs...That "I'm not a necron, HURR" rule means they will never hit my table. Unless I can get them to back up flayed ones or something...MOAR IMMORTALZ PLZ.
Pretty Much. Until they change Pariahs to either have 2 attacks or count as necrons or both, people will not use them. They cost a lot, do not have WBB, and can die to any dedicated CC unit.
You MIGHT be able to make them work, but you will have to base the building of your army around them. Which a lot Necron players do not have the will to do for something so limited.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/27 20:06:18
Subject: Re:Egads! Pariahs!
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Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk
Olympia, Waaaghshinton
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You know, its a bit funny that they are named pariahs, since they take the brunt of any criticism involving necrons.
"Lord, our immortal army of mindless killing machines has broken and run from a handful of grots with wrenches again."
"Damn... its all the pariahs' fault."
"Sir? Why is that?"
"It's ALWAYS their fault."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/28 04:48:47
Subject: Re:Egads! Pariahs!
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Serious Squig Herder
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Mekniakal wrote:You know, its a bit funny that they are named pariahs, since they take the brunt of any criticism involving necrons.
"Lord, our immortal army of mindless killing machines has broken and run from a handful of grots with wrenches again."
"Damn... its all the pariahs' fault."
"Sir? Why is that?"
"It's ALWAYS their fault."
Heh, it actually was their fault at a tourney game I played today. Pariahs were in the middle of the field, and a Monolith came in. It would have landed on them so it had to land next to them. Little did he know, my Kanz could reach him
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/28 17:33:31
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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At double the cost of a warrior and not helping with phase out, substandard close combat, defensive and shooting abilities...Pariahs just suck. Making them Necrons would go a long way to making them more useful, but they'd still be overcosted I reckon. Which is a shame, because I love the models and concept.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/28 18:03:58
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
UK
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PestilenceBlossom wrote:asugradinwa wrote:They don't count towards your phase out number and with high points cost for almost any other unit in the necron army I don't think the Pariahs are worth it. Just too many points for a unit that doesn't support the rest of the army well. IMO
But it's fun to indulge, no?
So much. Try it, just to see.
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H.B.M.C. wrote:Friend of mine just sent me this:
"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ." Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!
Heh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/28 18:28:04
Subject: Re:Egads! Pariahs!
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Deadshot Weapon Moderati
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Side note. I would not recommend using scarabs with parihas in CC. Your opponent will concentrate on the swarms will probably get allot more wounds making the combat res one sided. Pahihas will run and the swarms will take extra wounds as they are fearless. Unless you think you can wipe the squad out it can really go bad for you. Wraiths, flayed ones and spiders are a better bet for a duel charge.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/28 19:11:38
Subject: Re:Egads! Pariahs!
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Stalwart Space Marine
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Sha1emade wrote:Side note. I would not recommend using scarabs with parihas in CC. Your opponent will concentrate on the swarms will probably get allot more wounds making the combat res one sided. Pahihas will run and the swarms will take extra wounds as they are fearless. Unless you think you can wipe the squad out it can really go bad for you. Wraiths, flayed ones and spiders are a better bet for a duel charge.
Pariahs are also fearless, so they won't run. How would having the scarabs taking more wounds be bad? That just means your pariahs will live long enough to hit back.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/28 19:54:44
Subject: Re:Egads! Pariahs!
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Deadshot Weapon Moderati
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It is bad.
I will give an example. Lests say scarabs and parahias charge a unit of eldar banshees. Scarabs take say 7 wounds as they are T3 and have a 5+ save so not very hard to do. Parihas are not likely to lose many as they are T5 and 3+ save so a smart opponent will ignore them in the multiple melee. Both squads are fearless. But both squads will take the same amount of wounds at the end of the round if they both survive according to the rules, just like both squads take a LD test. So pariahs and swarms take 7 saves at the end of the combat. Ergo killing extra pariahs that were not wounded in the combat by opponents that were not likely to hurt them in the first place. Fearless and scarabs can be a problem if used together. Granted wounds that the pariahs and swarms gave were not accounted for in this example but the result is the same. Perhaps not as drastic but i have had to take 7 wounds in a combat that did not seem like a unique case. This is why I stated that you should not do this unless you are pretty sure you are going to wipe them ALL out.
I have had this happen to me more than once and it was very disheartening. So now I let the swarms do their thing and the rest of the army does theirs. I will join the melee when 1 or 2 bases are left but not before.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/28 21:40:33
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Let's consider, for a moment, the mechanics of charging Howling Banshees with Pariahs and the Lord they should always accompany.
Let's make a couple of assumptions:
First, we consider the Pariah's shooting before they plunge into combat.
Second, we consider only the average results, for convenience.
Thirdly, we suppose a unit of 10 Howling Banshees, including an Exarch with Acrobatic and an Executioner, and a unit of 4 Pariahs, and a Necron Lord with the Gaze of Flame, Lightening Field, Phase Shifter, and Lightening Field.
So the Necrons start with 8 Gauss Blaster shots and 3 Staff of Light shots.
Of the Gauss Blaster shots, 5 will hit on average. Of those 5, 4 will wound on average. If the Banshees have cover, then 2 Banshees will be taken down, otherwise 4.
Of the Staff of Light shots, 2 will hit on average. Of those 2, it will be more likely that they will both wound rather than 1 or 0. Again, no armour save, but a cover save would save one on average.
So if the Banshees were in cover, they'd only suffer 3 wounds on average, while if they were in the open, they'd suffer 6 wounds on average. They could be wiped out by shooting, which is unlikely, and they could survive it entirely, slightly more likely but less likely that suffering either 3 or 6 wounds.
Let's continue under the supposition that they are lucky enough to be in cover, so they would usually only lose 3 wounds.
So let's assume further that the Necrons then charge into close combat, and everyone is engaged, rather than sitting back and letting a Morale check at Ld7 deal with the Howling Banshees.
So 7 Howling Banshees, including an Exarch, attack first. Their Banshee Masks negate all the cover and grenades carried by the Necrons, and give them I10. Which is alright, because the Necrons have less than I5, no cover, and no grenades. But the Lord has the Gaze of Flame, so the Howling Banshees cannot claim the +1 attack for their Acrobatic Counter-Charge. In addition, if they lose the combat, their leadership will start at 6, Ld7 for the Souless, -1 for the Gaze of Flame.
So out of 6 Howling Banshees they get 12 attacks hitting on 4+, wounding on 6+, and permitting no saves. The Exarch gets 2 attacks hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, and permitting no save. Then the Lord will get 3 attacks hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, and permitting no save. Finally what's left of the Pariahs will get 8 attacks (less the casualties) hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, and permitting no saves. Thanks to the Lord's Lightening Field, a S3 AP- attack will be resolved against whomever dealt it after I1 has been resolved.
Banshees: 6 hits, 1 wound.
Exarch: 1 hit, 1 wound
If the Necron Lord takes the hits, then:
Pariahs: 4 hits, 3 wounds
Lord: 1 hit, 1 wound
Lightening Field: 0
If the Pariahs take the hits, then:
Pariahs: 2 hits, 1 wound
Lord: 1 hit, 1 wound
Lightening Field, 1 wound
Depending on the breaks, the Howling Banshees may lose by 1, making a Morale check on 5, or they may lose by 2, making a Morale check on 4. No doubt they'll escape from a Sweeping Advance, but a good Necron player will not use Scarabs in combat, but to cut off escape from combat so that the Banshees are Trapped!
Obviously these numbers are fluffed, but I think it gives a wonderful opportunity for someone better at numbers to check not only the averages I'd fudged here, but also the range of possible outcomes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/28 22:41:39
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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Nurglitch: Combat wise, the Pariahs have some punch. But many Necron players would prefer the force multiplying effect of having the Lord near the Warriors with a Res Orb. You can of course take two lords, but even at that, many players would see them as more useful Res orbing and veiling to keep the Warriors alive longer.
My biggest problem with Pariahs isn't their combat ability, which is relatively decent as necrons go. It's their points cost (Too high when compared to other choices of this type, for example Terminators) and the fact that even with this high points cost, which can sometimes be justified by the units role in the army (Meganobs are a slightly poor but still valid example of this, seeing as they negate many of the weaknesses of orks), Pariahs don't fit with the army. They can't be teleported, they don't help with Phase Out. These are huge issues, and I think they outweigh any useful abilities of the Pariahs in close combat.
Sometimes a unit percieved as poor can be used with great success with the right tactics. I don't think Pariahs are one of those units. I'd be delighted if my opponent used them against me- each one is 2 less necron warriors I have to kill to get phase out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/28 23:32:18
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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There's nothing stopping you from having a Necron Lord with a Resurrection Orb accompanied by Pariahs. Indeed, as I pointed out earlier having some Warriors to screen the Pariahs and Lord is necessary to get the most out of them.
As I harped on earlier, it's not the Pariah's close combat or shooting ability you should be concentrating on, but their synergies with other units, particularly their combination of Soulless and Fearless.
Where they don't synergize with the army, they complement the Necrons.
For example: They don't count towards the army's Phase Out, which is alright because if your opponent ignores them in favour of trying to Phase Out your army, then you can use them to their fullest effect, and if your opponent tries to take them out, well, no harm done to your Phase Out.
Another example: They can't teleport. But that's alright, since they're most useful in the middle of the table where they can exert the greatest influence with Soulless. They don't need to be teleported out of combat, since they're Fearless, and they're equipped with Gauss Blasters which are useful to use when the unit needs to keep moving conventionally.
Remember that the Pariahs are Fearless, so the Necron Lord is Fearless so long as he joins them. No worries about being pinned down, getting swept in combat, etc.
I'd agree that they need to have their points value lowered, perhaps significantly, and be given better attacks and initiative, but that's just to incentivize Necron players so that they're willing to risk taking Pariahs. As it is, they have a steep learning curve in an army that's pretty forgiving otherwise.
Personally I think they'd sell best if they were treated like Warlocks, so they could be a unit taken with a Necron Lord (but not taking up an HQ spot), or taken by units of Necron Warriors and Immortals to provide on the spot Soulless power.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/29 01:26:27
Subject: Re:Egads! Pariahs!
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Stalwart Space Marine
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Sha1emade wrote:It is bad. I will give an example. Lests say scarabs and parahias charge a unit of eldar banshees. Scarabs take say 7 wounds as they are T3 and have a 5+ save so not very hard to do. Parihas are not likely to lose many as they are T5 and 3+ save so a smart opponent will ignore them in the multiple melee. Both squads are fearless. But both squads will take the same amount of wounds at the end of the round if they both survive according to the rules, just like both squads take a LD test. So pariahs and swarms take 7 saves at the end of the combat. Ergo killing extra pariahs that were not wounded in the combat by opponents that were not likely to hurt them in the first place. Fearless and scarabs can be a problem if used together. Granted wounds that the pariahs and swarms gave were not accounted for in this example but the result is the same. Perhaps not as drastic but i have had to take 7 wounds in a combat that did not seem like a unique case. This is why I stated that you should not do this unless you are pretty sure you are going to wipe them ALL out. I have had this happen to me more than once and it was very disheartening. So now I let the swarms do their thing and the rest of the army does theirs. I will join the melee when 1 or 2 bases are left but not before. But the scarabs and pariahs are seperate units, so each will take their own wounds for Ld modifiers, as far as I know.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/29 01:30:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/29 01:49:36
Subject: Egads! Pariahs!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Nope, they take the Leadership modifiers of the combat in which they are involved.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/29 03:00:41
Subject: Re:Egads! Pariahs!
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Deadshot Weapon Moderati
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Yup. It just happened to me again today. Death company did 15 wounds to me. I did a few and the fearless wounds killed my tomb spider and lord. :( Ya gotta be careful. Banshees was a bad example.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/29 03:03:57
Subject: Re:Egads! Pariahs!
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Stalwart Space Marine
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Since we're on the topic of scarabs, can scarabs turbo boost since they move in the same way as jetbikes?
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"Do you guys know where the fire extinguisher is?"
"You wish to douse His Holy Flame? You skirt heresy brother." |
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