Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

i play guard, i tried out a weapons squad. the heavy weapons werent doing, so i was wondering what people think of them, and are they a good idea?

In 5th edition, they are not so great. The problem with them is that they sit there with a giant target on them that says "Shoot me!". If you put other squads in front of them to give them cover saves, anything they shoot at gets a cover save too. So in the end, they are not really all that good anymore. It tends to be a better idea to spread your heavy weapons around in basic squads where the ablative wounds of 9 other guys protect them or on tanks where their armor protects them.

Not mortars...those are worth their weight in gold...

Phoenix is right, heavy weapon squads are not as good as in the 4th ed thanks to cover saves and the new armor penetration table making tanks more resilient.

kharndude wrote:i play guard, i tried out a weapons squad. the heavy weapons werent doing, so i was wondering what people think of them, and are they a good idea?

Yes, they are an extremely good idea. They are a means to get a lot of heavies into a list. What do you mean, you've tried out 'a weapons squad' though? A single one? There's the problem right there. Take 2-3 plus whatever you can get for your regulars and tanks and it's a whole different ballgame.

Phoenix wrote:In 5th edition, they are not so great. The problem with them is that they sit there with a giant target on them that says "Shoot me!". If you put other squads in front of them to give them cover saves, anything they shoot at gets a cover save too. So in the end, they are not really all that good anymore. It tends to be a better idea to spread your heavy weapons around in basic squads where the ablative wounds of 9 other guys protect them or on tanks where their armor protects them.

The sign actually says "shoot me if you can". Oftentimes, they have very good range, and are small enough to be put in some nice real estate. Then again, providing the opposition with a 4++ save is irrelevant in a metagame where everyone and the kitchen sink sports a 3+ anyways. Or just move them out of the way before your fire and run them back.

wuestenfux wrote:Phoenix is right, heavy weapon squads are not as good as in the 4th ed thanks to cover saves and the new armor penetration table making tanks more resilient.

You make it sound as if 5th invented cover saves. I don't know but with a couple of AV14 heavies bearing down on me, I'd rather have more lascannon, not less. Having said that, they are static, which is a problem but hey, it's the Guard we're talking about, right?

i did one for a test to see how one in a squad did, but the weapons did not do well as i thought. soo i think they are a pain in the butt.

I have to second what others have said...you tried out one and think they suck?

The problem is, as Solar said, you tried only 1. You want to concentrate your fire and you need multiple heavy weapon squads to put the hurt on people. Also Mortars are indeed great, hell any template weapon is fantastic, and always tend to make there points back for me.

My HQ support Lascannon squads with sharpshooters rarely fail to make their value stick.

Pro's and con's in a nutshell:

1. Offensively, three HW are more effective in separate units than in one since they can potentially shoot at three different targets. You could even have one advance/move and the others fire. Since most things will need the attention of more than one heavy anyways, this is a minor consideration.

2. Defensively, three HW are more effective in separate units than in one since they cannot be taken out all at once and have more bodies between them. You could even have one go to ground and the others not.

3a. Army-list-wise, ie. looking at the overall effectiveness of any given list and the number of tools available for a task, support squads are a great way to buff the number of HW's in your list.

3b. Closely connected with this is points spent. In a support squad, you're spending 80-120 points on 3 HW, elsewhere a lot more. Of course you'll be spending the points on squads anyways but if you need to fit in say three more lascannon, or have enough bodies already or are left with some 90 points to spend, ATSS/FSS are the way to go.

Conclusion: I always mix and match in order to combine firepower with resilience.

they die too quik by template weapons