Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A point of clarification. When you upgrade the front rank of a unit of slayers, do all 5 act as unit champions (i.e. casualties are taken from the rear and the giant slayers stay)?

If you upgrade the entire front rank, then you're stuck removing giant slayers. Now, if you upgrade less than the entire front rank, then it's up to your opponent to declare which attacks are targeted at Giant Slayers and which are targeted at Troll Slayers. In the absence of such a declaration, any enemy model that is touching a Troll Slayer is assumed to be attacking the unit's Rank and File, the Troll Slayers.

bigchris1313 wrote:If you upgrade the entire front rank, then you're stuck removing giant slayers. Now, if you upgrade less than the entire front rank, then it's up to your opponent to declare which attacks are targeted at Giant Slayers and which are targeted at Troll Slayers. In the absence of such a declaration, any enemy model that is touching a Troll Slayer is assumed to be attacking the unit's Rank and File, the Troll Slayers.

If I recall correctly, slayers don't count as champions - that's what dragon and daemon slayers are for.

with an iron fist wrote:

bigchris1313 wrote:If you upgrade the entire front rank, then you're stuck removing giant slayers. Now, if you upgrade less than the entire front rank, then it's up to your opponent to declare which attacks are targeted at Giant Slayers and which are targeted at Troll Slayers. In the absence of such a declaration, any enemy model that is touching a Troll Slayer is assumed to be attacking the unit's Rank and File, the Troll Slayers.

If I recall correctly, slayers don't count as champions - that's what dragon and daemon slayers are for.

You recall incorrectly. Troll Slayers don't count as Champions, Giant Slayers do.

This is actually a trick I've been using since SOC Slayer list days. Basically on a 5 model frontage you could have 3 giant slayers vs equal frontage and model size and every enemy model would be able to attack a troll slayer. It's not quite as good vs. 25 mm bases. If they don't declare targets the giant slayers give you a chance to get some kills with this unit.

Recently I've tried 2 giant slayers and a dragon slayer with MR of Swiftness. Fairly effective if they get to melee. Unfortunately they tend to get shot to pieces.

Swoop!

Platuan4th wrote:

with an iron fist wrote:

bigchris1313 wrote:If you upgrade the entire front rank, then you're stuck removing giant slayers. Now, if you upgrade less than the entire front rank, then it's up to your opponent to declare which attacks are targeted at Giant Slayers and which are targeted at Troll Slayers. In the absence of such a declaration, any enemy model that is touching a Troll Slayer is assumed to be attacking the unit's Rank and File, the Troll Slayers.

If I recall correctly, slayers don't count as champions - that's what dragon and daemon slayers are for.

You recall incorrectly. Troll Slayers don't count as Champions, Giant Slayers do.

There's no mention of champions in dwarf army book entry - or the FAQ (currently up). So Illuminate me - why are Giant Slayers Champions according to you?

with an iron fist wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

with an iron fist wrote:

bigchris1313 wrote:If you upgrade the entire front rank, then you're stuck removing giant slayers. Now, if you upgrade less than the entire front rank, then it's up to your opponent to declare which attacks are targeted at Giant Slayers and which are targeted at Troll Slayers. In the absence of such a declaration, any enemy model that is touching a Troll Slayer is assumed to be attacking the unit's Rank and File, the Troll Slayers.

If I recall correctly, slayers don't count as champions - that's what dragon and daemon slayers are for.

You recall incorrectly. Troll Slayers don't count as Champions, Giant Slayers do.

There's no mention of champions in dwarf army book entry - or the FAQ (currently up). So Illuminate me - why are Giant Slayers Champions according to you?

Well, I don't see any mention of the word "champion" in the entries for Warriors, Thunderers, Crossbowmen, Miners, Rangers, Longbeards, Ironbreakers, or Hammerers. The word champion does appear in the entries for Cannons, Bolt Throwers, and Stone Throwers. Therefore, only some Dwarf Artillery units may field champions. QED.

But that doesn't make sense--let's consult the Champions entry on page 81 of the BRB. "A unit of troops can often include a single champion." What can they do less often? Include no champion? Multiple champions? It does not specify. The paragraph further states, "Champions of units have various names depending on the army they fight for--Orc champions are called Bosses, while Empire champions are called Sergeants or Marksmen, for example. No matter their name, champions always follow the same rules."

It certainly looks like champions can have funny names like "Giant Slayer;" furthermore, no general prohibition on multiple champions appears to exist. While scores of unit entires limit their champion upgrades to one per unit, the unit entry for Giant Slayers conspicuously lacks such a limitation.

I grant you that Slayers are the only unit--that I can recall--with multiple champions. By that rationale, you may try to separate them from the rest of the unit champions in the game, the lack of a general prohibition against multiple unit champions notwithstanding. But if Giant Slayers are not champions--which they appear to be--then what are they? Units of Slayers get to upgrade models to Full Command except champions? Instead they get any number of models with the stats of champions that aren't champions and are completely indifferentiable from the rest of the rank and file?

No. As far as I know the rules do not allow for such an upgrade to exist. You upgrade models to unit command. And Giant Slayers very much appear to fit the bill.

Actually if they are classified as not champions that can make them better since people would then not be able to challenge them to force one to fight and get over killed or have all them hide behind the troll slayers. Not that overkill matters for slayers, but it does when the slayers are involved in a larger fight containing other non-slayers which I tend to do a lot since my slayers are either the unbreakable anvil or sneaky flanking unit.

Strimen wrote:Actually if they are classified as not champions that can make them better since people would then not be able to challenge them to force one to fight and get over killed or have all them hide behind the troll slayers.

Since when is it bad to have a champion killed by a choppy enemy character? Because of the overkill rule, you lose combat by the same number as you would have if the two units had fought one another straight up; however, you get to save some rank and file models in the process. This allows you to stay in the fight longer, and preserve your outnumber, if you have it, along with ranks and such. Sure, it sucks when an enemy hero with a lance charges and skewers him because you lose a S4 model with 2 attacks, but when you have a Giant Slayer left to challenge a Bloodthirster, you'll thank the Maker that his sacrifice prevented an entire rank from disappearing into a fine red mist.

What if your opponent upgraded 5 to Giant Slayers, and made them the second rank? (I notice Strimen mentioned this as a possibility.) 5 trollslayers as a front rank, then 5 Giant slayers in the second rank, then two more ranks of trollslayers.

I ask because I watched a dwarf player do that last night, but as it wasn't in my game, I didn't feel right saying anything. Also, it was his opponent who had suggested the tactic. But I will likely face these guys in the near future.

fellblade wrote:What if your opponent upgraded 5 to Giant Slayers, and made them the second rank?

Then he'd be cheating.