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Made in us
[DCM]
Gun Mage






New Hampshire, USA

In Episode 25 we review our adventures at TempleCon 2009.

Later, the D6G team cover our X-cam campaign system that can be used for just about any game system.

All that and our usual 'not too horrible' humor, with features such as:

- When Wives Attack
- Rapid Fire
- The Hollywood Minute
- Words from Wales
- Contests
- & More


To check out this episode click here:
http://thed6generation.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=434178


Thread about previous episode:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/229223.page

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/03/03 02:54:22


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Long time listener, (since episode 3) first time poster.

I curious where you will post your X-Cam systems. I found the Uncharted Seas system on Craigs blog. Specifically what I'm looking for are the Warmachine systems and Flames of War systems you have. My group is JUST now looking at Flames of War and I've ordered Open Fire to give us a feel. If we like it this may be a good way to build up some forces.
   
Made in gb
Stitch Counter






Rowlands Gill

Good to hear Templecon went so well. I'm playing my first game of Uncharted Seas tomorrow night with my newly painted diddy Dwarf fleet and I'm hoping for fun! If I get it, its all down to you guys and also to Neil Shuck of Meeples and Miniatures who tempted me beyond belief with your favourable reviews!

And nice Words From Wales this time. I'll ignore all the female-dogging about England's (lack of) form on the Rugby field - after all its only fair play to let the minor nations in the championship have their moment in the sun. Its not like Wales are ever likelywin a major trophy like the World Cup like England did in '04 or anything... But apart from that minor sporting dissonance, I'm glad Owen has been born again into love for the LotR SBG. It truly is an underrated gem of GW's stable. As a long-time player of the game I have really never understood why players of WFB and 40k have tried in the past to do the game down or done their best to ignore it. Its a really fun system that provides lots of tactical interest and passes an enjoyable couple of hours! Sure it presses different buttons than WFB and 40k do, but that's not a bad thing, just different. I wholeheartedly endorse Owen's commendation of the game. If you've not played it yet, give it a go before it disappears when GW surrender the New Line licence in 2011! Go on, you've got nothing to lose but your virginity... no, wait, that's watching Torchwood... I meant... oh dear..

*cut*


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/02/18 17:55:38


Cheers
Paul 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Gun Mage






New Hampshire, USA

X-Cam Documents: The WM/Hordes documents will be up this week. Craig and I are still working on our 40k and Battlelore documents, which will be up when we get some playtesting in.

LoTR Game: I agree that this is a GREAT product. I'm glad Owen is having fun with it.

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Gun Mage






New Hampshire, USA


The X-Cam rule sets we discussed in Ep 25 are now up on the D6G site:

http://thed6generation.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=435488

We hope you have as much fun with them as we do!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/02/20 16:40:36


 
   
Made in no
Regular Dakkanaut




Being an avid campaign gamer, I've just listened to the X-cam part twice and read through the Uncharted Seas version of those rules on Craig's site. I'm having somewhat mixed impressions about the system, you start of by saying that the major challenges when coming up with a campaign system is the campaign map (which you solve by not having one ) and attrition (which you solve by not having it ) and I agree with that. As I reckon it, the major issues to deal with when writing a campaign is 1) who fights whom, 2) how is a player's army affected by previous battles, 3) what are the scenarios like and 4) how do you win the whole thing.

I quite like how your campaign structure deals with 3 and 4 and it looks like it integrates large and small battles in a meaningful way. The three types of scoring and the cost you need to pay to play different levels of battles are an interesting mechanic. You can't lose points, which means that the campaign will move towards a finish and not drag on indefinitely.

What I am surprised about is how you talk about the problems of bottom feeding (linked to #1 above) and yet the Unch Seas X-Cam system seems to actively encourage it. Firstly there is the "anyone can challenge anyone", which lets you challenge the player you think you are most likely to beat. If you have just spent 40 SP to play a Control Mission, you'd want an opponent you are likely to beat or you are just wasting the points. There is a requirement in whom you can challenge, but that doesn't seem very strict.

Secondly, there is no adjustment in the number of points you get to compensate for how well your opponent is doing. Often campaign systems give less points for beating (or playing) an opponent that is doing worse than yourself and/or more points for beating (or playing)one that is doing better. You don't have that and since the points you get are directly linked to your VPs, you will probably gain more VPs in battles against a weaker opponent. I'm a bit hazy about the VP system in Uncharted Seas, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you get points for each enemy ship sunk, relative to its cost.

Furthermore, you can pay extra strategic points to increase the size of the battle, placing more VPs up for grabs. Now, if you challenged the bottom player, you are much more likely to gain more of those extra VPs, which translate to more strategic points. Say you spend 2 SP, giving each player 10 extra fleet points. If that nets you 4 extra VP, you have just earned a net of +2 SP and +2 RP. A weaker opponent might only earn 2 extra VP, giving him only +1 SP and +1 RP. If you are confident of winning, you should plow SP into extra Fleet Points, which seems to be a very safe investment.

If you ARE the bottom player, on the other hand, spending SP in order to have fewer ships to play with and thus denying VPs to your opponent seems rather dull and demoralising, and not exactly profitable for you.


In summary, I quite like your concept, but I'm somewhat skeptical about the details of the scoring as there seems to be an element of low risk / high reward in attacking those much worse off than yourself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/02/18 18:13:23


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Gun Mage






New Hampshire, USA

Howdy Avian,

Thanks for taking so much time to review the X-cam rules. It seems like your biggest concern is to do with "bottom feeding" and preventing players from going after 'soft targets' for key battles.

It's a valid point, and there is a bit of a nod to this issue at the "Control Point" challenge level. I think you'll find in all our X-cam rules that it costs the attacker 40 strategy points to issue a challenge, but it he/she can only challenge another player with AT LEAST 20 strategic points of their own, or at least a control point.

This at least has the effect of forcing key battles to be against players who have at least played more than a couple games in the X-cam, so they know what their way around the table. (In theory)

Of course, you could always add some more "Global Rules" to help out with your concern. Here's a couple ideas:

---------------
"Giant Killer" - If you beat an opponent who currently has double your Strategic Points or Control Points you score 1.5 times the normal reward for this mission.

"Pick on someone your own size" - If you attack a player with less than half your current SP or CP you only score .75 time the normal reward.
-----------------
You get the idea.

A word of caution: The down side to adding clever rules like this in small gaming groups is that there will be times when a player gets to a certain position and is encouraged to play no-one. In which case he must simply wait until the rest of the campaign catches up.

What I like about the simple mechanics of the X-cam is that you can easily tweak them to match the play style and dynamics of your local group. Got a small group of roughly equal skill? Don't need any of these fancy rules. Got a larger group of veterans and rookies? Perhaps some 'rookie protection' rules would make sense.


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Gun Mage






New Hampshire, USA

Designer's notes:

In the Warmachine/Hordes X-cam rules (linked above) I did include "Designer's Notes" that describe some of the thinking that went into several of the rules ideas.

It may be helpful to have a look at that version to get insight into why some of the elements work the way they do.

I believe Craig removed the "Designer Notes" from the Uncharted Seas edition of the document.

 
   
Made in no
Regular Dakkanaut




Yes, essentially what I'm concerned about is that an easy battle should give relatively few points while a difficult one should give relatively more (i.e: low risk -> low reward, high risk -> high reward).

Balancing it is of course an issue, but the basic X-Cam system has the same reward regardless of risk and the “We’ll fight them, but we’ll fight them on our terms.” mechanic means that if you are in the lead you can comfortably do a low risk -> high reward game if you wish. And I don't think that makes for a very interesting mechanic.


EDIT: The WM/Hordes document doesn't have this rule, so there is no designer's note for it.

And by the way, the title of the WM/Hordes document is "B5 Campaign ideas".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/02/18 19:47:09


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut







Thanks for a good, bulky podcast, guys - it's really helping me get through some serious deadline crunching right now!

Russ, I have to disagree with your constant complaints about B&W rules books.

I actually prefer my rule books to be B&W with either color sections (ala GW) or full-page color art (ala the 2nd edition D&D books).

The ubiquitous use of color, especially color spot illustration and page backgrounds, doesn't do much for me. It spreads the focus around the page, and really dilutes the content, IMHO. I prefer to have the rules content in B&W, for clarity's sake, and then the artwork to be focused and impressive rather than spread allover and decorative.

It's a difference of opinion, I know, but you have to admit that GW has made their book presentation a stylized choice which fits their dark and gritty universe.

I'm not saying that Full-color is wrong, but just that it's not the way all games books *should* be printed, but just one option.

Anyhow, thanks again, looking forward to the rest of the show.

*edit* P.S. What was Craig on? Did he slam a triple espresso right before the show? He seemed extra *enthusiastic* this show!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/02/18 21:14:33


   
Made in au
Pauper with Promise





On historical wargaming, I fully agree with Craigs idea on mesuring who won against what happened historically. That sounds like a really good way to add balance to games which in historical battles one side is generally at a disadvantage.

Owen I agree LOTR is the a great game. If you liked LOTR you should try Warhammer historical the old west, very good game built with a similar system. Raef if you want a fun way to play 28mm historicals The Old West, the Alamo expansion is the best way using perry minatures.

   
Made in gb
Praetorian





Another good episode guys thanks.

Can't wait for the 40K X-Cam rules as I've got plans for them.
   
Made in gb
Average Orc Boy




Wales

Cool

I have a copy of the old west rules here somewhere and will dig them out and give tham a try. Especially love the Alamo (there is a Welsh flag hanging up in the shrine there as one of the Heroes was Welsh) . Thanks for that King Caboose, and Osbad, Im glad you enjoyed the Segment

 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




In the process of listening now, loved the TempleCon coverage..have just got to the Wives' segment now and there was mention of there not being a Transformers convention....I think BotCon's organisers would disagree

   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






Richmond, VA

Yeah BotCon, TransForce UK (do they still hold that?) and a few others.

 
   
Made in us
Mauleed






BotCon?? Really??? I've listened to guys screaming battle cries at 40K events but I draw the line at going to a con where there is a decent chance I will have to listen to that weird "transforming" sound for a whole weekend...

Total Fan Girl

http://www.totalfangirl.com
http://www.thed6generation.com 
   
Made in no
Regular Dakkanaut




Regarding next episode, I'm looking forward to hearing your comments on PP's announcements that they are turning their main game more towards Warmachine 40K.

Yet another book to buy if you want to keep up* and this time you also have to buy new cards for all your minis.


* How many is it in total now? Six in as many years?
   
Made in gb
Stitch Counter






Rowlands Gill

Osbad wrote:I'm playing my first game of Uncharted Seas tomorrow night with my newly painted diddy Dwarf fleet and I'm hoping for fun! If I get it, its all down to you guys and also to Neil Shuck of Meeples and Miniatures who tempted me beyond belief with your favourable reviews!


Well, I had my game of US with my diddy dwarf fleet. And it was AH-SUM!! most definitely!

Ah'll be a havin' me some more o' that there li'l ship action next week and ah can't wait!

Seriously, the game, even as a first intro with both of us poring over the rulebook to work out what to do next was fun. Seeing my opponent's face when I rolled snake-eyes on the critical hit table and we realised that it meant his battleship was getting shredded as well as my cruiser that he blew up was priceless!

Great stuff!

Cheers
Paul 
   
Made in eu
Newb



Portugal

I've been listening to the D6G since the beginning, and I feel you guys have been getting better and better. I still haven't finished this episode, but when I do... muhahaha

Looking forward to listening to what you have to say about Epic and the introduction of the X-Cam (I am a campaign nuttie myself)
   
Made in gb
Jojo_Monkey_Boy




Osbad wrote:Good to hear Templecon went so well. I'm playing my first game of Uncharted Seas tomorrow night with my newly painted diddy Dwarf fleet and I'm hoping for fun! If I get it, its all down to you guys and also to Neil Shuck of Meeples and Miniatures who tempted me beyond belief with your favourable reviews!

And nice Words From Wales this time. I'll ignore all the female-dogging about England's (lack of) form on the Rugby field - after all its only fair play to let the minor nations in the championship have their moment in the sun. Its not like Wales are ever likelywin a major trophy like the World Cup like England did in '04 or anything... But apart from that minor sporting dissonance, I'm glad Owen has been born again into love for the LotR SBG. It truly is an underrated gem of GW's stable. As a long-time player of the game I have really never understood why players of WFB and 40k have tried in the past to do the game down or done their best to ignore it. Its a really fun system that provides lots of tactical interest and passes an enjoyable couple of hours! Sure it presses different buttons than WFB and 40k do, but that's not a bad thing, just different. I wholeheartedly endorse Owen's commendation of the game. If you've not played it yet, give it a go before it disappears when GW surrender the New Line licence in 2011! Go on, you've got nothing to lose but your virginity... no, wait, that's watching Torchwood... I meant... oh dear..

*cut*

I was disapointed that he didnt stick up for the only Welsh Member the Hawtness that is Gwen :-)


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut







Firstly, something to keep in mind is that the X-Cam, locally, has almost always been with smaller groups. Except the Babylon 5 X-Cam, which ended up extended over 2 cities and 2 different game stores. So the issues you bring up about bottom feeding etc. didn't really arise because of the social mix. However, I could see, with the wrong crowd, that that would be an issue.

Secondly, I wasn't on anything, man! That was pure, unadulterated me!!!!

Thirdly, The Uncharted Seas X-Cam was an edited copy of the copy of the Babylon 5 X-Cam that Russ sent me. If there were no Designer's Notes, then they weren't there when I edited it.

Not to pull the curtain back, but hey, Russ, when did you add those notes?

Fourthly, you're not the only one with this curiosity, Avian. I'm eagre to see how Russ in particular justifies how this is NOTHING like GW, and a TOTALLY valid business decision with NO negative ramifications whatsoever and without a single hint of the dripping sarcasm and scathing, pedantic indictment that is never far behind any comment about GW.




Far-stretching, endless Time
Brings forth all hidden things,
And buries that which once did shine.
The firm resolve falters, the sacred oath is shattered;
And let none say, "It cannot happen here".

Sophocles
 
   
Made in us
Ruthless Rafkin






Glen Burnie, MD

Master-Terraformer wrote:
Fourthly, you're not the only one with this curiosity, Avian. I'm eagre to see how Russ in particular justifies how this is NOTHING like GW, and a TOTALLY valid business decision with NO negative ramifications whatsoever and without a single hint of the dripping sarcasm and scathing, pedantic indictment that is never far behind any comment about GW.





Russ will kneel at the Shrine of St. Matthew (Wilson), light the candle of Disappointment Banishing, ring the Bell of Tortured Logic and read from the (full color) Book of Fanboyism.

"Hollywood" will inexplicably ask for a pizza, despite having just eaten. No-one will know why.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/02/22 22:25:44




-Loki- wrote:
40k is about slamming two slegdehammers together and hoping the other breaks first. Malifaux is about fighting with scalpels trying to hit select areas and hoping you connect more. 
   
Made in us
Despised Traitorous Cultist



The Warp



"Hollywood" will inexplicably ask for a pizza, despite having just eaten. No-one will know why.



Easy. He's a Tyranid. They're always hungry.

Either that, or a tapeworm

The D6G: Helping to empty my wallet since February 2008. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut







I’d go for a tapeworm. He’s just too damned handsome to be a tyranid.

Genestealer cult, member however . . . .hmmmm . . . I mean, he IS a lawyer . . .

Guys, I'm working on the 40K X-Cam, I promise. Thanks to all those who have enquired and offered assistance (and one listener, Jonas, already DID one! He's in the process of playtesting now).

I'm sort of a lone wolf when it comes to projects of this nature, but seriously, thanks for all your offers and inquiries. I'll let you all know when I've got something worth looking at. Right now I have to go look at some flooring to finish the Pub before PaddyCon (you'll have to listen to the Episode 26 Extravaganza for more on PaddyCon), but I'll devote some of my time today to it, I promise!

~Craig

PS-preemtpive defense: Russ' Jedi mind trick explanation about the PP change in direction/republishing both their core rules sets again so quickly will undoubtedly convince me he's right. So now, before he gets to me: It's LIES, ALL LIES!!!!! Soylent Green is PP!!!!!! Soylent Green is PP!!!!!!!!!

Far-stretching, endless Time
Brings forth all hidden things,
And buries that which once did shine.
The firm resolve falters, the sacred oath is shattered;
And let none say, "It cannot happen here".

Sophocles
 
   
Made in us
Ruthless Rafkin






Glen Burnie, MD

He does seem very convincing. He convinced his wife to open a game store with him. That's a feat unto itself.




-Loki- wrote:
40k is about slamming two slegdehammers together and hoping the other breaks first. Malifaux is about fighting with scalpels trying to hit select areas and hoping you connect more. 
   
Made in us
Mauleed






It wasn't just him you know...it was his brother John, too...I didn't stand a chance against the combined powers of both the Wakelin brothers...

Total Fan Girl

http://www.totalfangirl.com
http://www.thed6generation.com 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




US

Really enjoyed the episode. Looking forward to the 40K X-Cam.

Any word on this Saladin board game? You definitely had my interest.

“Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his...” -- The Warmaster Horus  
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator



Annapolis, MD

I'm a relatively new listener and just wanted to say that I love the show. The guys have a great dynamic and always manage to keep my interest over the 3ish hours of the show. Plus When Wives Attack adds a lighter, softer side to the show and always makes me smile. Plus it reminds us all that behind every great gamer, is a woman who puts up with him!

Keep up the great work!
   
Made in us
Oozing Spawning Vat




Indianapolis, IN

The first Games Day I attended had a BotCon going on in the same building at the same time.

I had never, and have never since, seen that many geeks in one place at the same time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/02/24 23:30:01


   
Made in us
Ruthless Rafkin






Glen Burnie, MD

The last Games Day I went to was on on side of the Baltimore Convention center, while the other side held a Muslim American religious confernce on the other side. What was in between? A gay and lesbian square dancing convention.

It was somewhat surreal.



-Loki- wrote:
40k is about slamming two slegdehammers together and hoping the other breaks first. Malifaux is about fighting with scalpels trying to hit select areas and hoping you connect more. 
   
 
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