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I'm dinking around with going to a local RTT in a couple of months and the points limit is set at 1750. At my FLGS, our standard points value is 1850. This is making the army build a bit more difficult. As the subject says, I am not looking to make a "crush-your-face, eat-your-babies, foot-in-the-beansnake" list. At the same time, I am not overly interested in giving my opponents a courtesy reach-around as they bend me over the table...

So, here is my starter list that I think will give me a competitive run while not being a gigantic douchebag:

HQ
Farseer - Singing Spear, Doom, Mind War ------------------------------------------ 148
Farseer - Guide, Mind War ------------------------------------------------------------- 143

ELITES
Howling Banshees (7+Exarch) - Exarch: Executioner, War Shout -------------- 320
Wave Serpent - EML, Spirit Stone, Star Engines, Vec. Engines

TROOPS
Dire Avengers (9+Exarch) - Exarch: 2x Avenger Catapults, Bladestorm ----- 322
Wave Serpent - Starcannon, Spirit Stone, Star Engines, Vec. Engines
Def. Guardians (10) - EML ---------------------------------------------------------- 140
Warlock - Conceal
Def. Guardians (10) - EML ---------------------------------------------------------- 140
Warlock - Conceal

HEAVY SUPPORT
Dark Reapers (4+Exarch) - Exarch: Reaper Launcher, Fast Shot --------------- 207
Wraithlord - Flamer, Shuri-cat, Bright Lance --------------------------------------- 130
Falcon - EML, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone, Vec. Engines ------------------------------ 200

Total: 1750


The basic plan is to advance the Banshees and Avengers together up one flank. Next turn, they hop out and the Banshees assault one squad, while the Avengers Bladestorm the next squad in line into oblivion. One Farseer will accompany each squad to Guide the Avengers, Doom either the shooting or assault target, and Mind War any pesky threats in the squads or nearby. With the new assault rules disallowing consolidating into new combats, I figure the Avengers with a Bladestorm could probably make short work of a unit close enough to be immediate threats to the Banshees.

Falcon and WL's Bright Lance for AT (plus any EML I may need). Guardians and Wraithlord advance to objectives, etc. and Dark Reapers plug away at range.


What say you, oh Dakka Army List surgeons?



Ghidorah

A couple of things to consider with the various units you present here.

Farseers:
You are bringing both guide and doom. Keep in mind that banshees almost require doom to be effective so your doom target is going to need to be whatever they are trying to kill. So that leaves you guiding the avengers. However avengers hit on 3+ and wound on 4+. Rerolling the easier roll (the to hit roll) will provide you with less gain than rerolling the harder roll (the to wound roll). So, if you want to maximize their effectiveness in your current army configuration and battle plan, take doom on both farseers. Additionally, I have never had mind war do anything really useful. It is one of those things that sounds great in theory but then you realize you can't run if you use it, have to cast it every turn, worry about that pesky leadership roll off, and then deal with your opponent getting cover saves (per the latest GW FAQ...thanks GW ). To that end, I would suggest swapping at least one (if not both) mind war in favor of fortune (most likely to be used on the banshees).

Banshees:
War shout has such a limited chance to work that it is almost a waste, fortunately it is also very inexpensive. So if you can use the points elsewhere, do so. Otherwise, this unit is 8 strong, which I consider to be the bare minimum for an assault unit. I would see if you can't shave some points somewhere to get them up to 9 or 10...maybe from dropping some of the wave serpent upgrades.

Guardians:
Unless you expect to play on battlefields with next to no terrain, it shouldn't be a problem finding cover for your guardians. To this end, you can spend the points you invested in conceal on something that's going to be more useful, like embolden. On the other hand, if the store where this is going to be held has little terrain to offer and fields are generally rather open, then stick with conceal.

Reapers:
The price for the unit seems off. You may want to check your math on that again. Other than that, I'm much more fond of the tempest launcher + crack shot combo on the exarch. The range is shorter but the destructive power is unbelievable. The real kicker is that the tempest launcher fires 2 templates at S4 with rerolls to wound that are AP3 and ignore cover. Combine that with the fact that since the exarch is BS5, the templates hit dead on 51.9% of the time (and dosn't scatter much if they do go off target).

Wraithlord:
I generally find that twin flamers work out better than one flamer and one catapult.

Falcon:
Vectored engines are mostly worthless for the falcon. The only time a skimmer is destroyed when immobilized is if it moved over 12" and if you moved it that far, you didn't shoot that turn. Are you planning to have it zipping up on the enemy rather than sitting back and shooting?

Wave serpents:
You may want to reconsider the value of vectored engines and spirit stones on wave serpents. Vectored engines only do you any good if you moved over 12" and it's unlikely you will be doing that for more than 1 or maybe 2 turns per game. Are the points spent on them worth the protection for that small amount of time? Spirit stones are also something that you may want to look closer at. They only provide protection against 1 out of 6 possible outcomes on the damage chart. Is that worth the points you could be spending on more banshees? Remember, unlike 4th edition, your skimmers don't all of a sudden become very vulnerable if they can't move for a turn. In general, I would strip out the vectored engines first and see what that gets you in terms of more banshees (or other units) and then take off the spirit stones if you need more points.

So there is my surgeon advice. No major army altering changes, just a little nip here and a tuck there.

I would recheck the pts on those farseers. 148 for a spear and 2 powers seems a tad high. Now if you are including the cost of spirit stones and some runes, that would add up, and I would probably recommend those upgrades.

Take at least one farseer with runes of warding if you haven't, its 10 pts and will really stick it to some of the harder armies you will run against.

Like said above, doom is worth taking twice. I am also a fan of fortune, as it will help keep your banshees going in CC, and when paired with doom, can really turn a combat around. Guide, not so much, unless you are keeping the guideseer close to or inside the falcon.

All of what phoenix & Oldsk00l said..

Acrobatic, at 5pts is worth the ability to get charged & fight at full capacity @ I10 any counter charge unit will get minced. Too cheap not to.

As it stands (if you add in the 20pt spirit stones which you havent listed) your farseers shoud cost 123 & 115pts respectively.

Max the Banshees.

From the points you get from dropping the vec.engines and Posssibly the warlock+conceal from one defender guardain squad it could be a good idea to get a 5man dire-avenger sqaud for the falcon. Scoring tank no.2. Gives it somthing to do when it looses both its weapons!

Razerous wrote:
From the points you get from dropping the vec.engines and Posssibly the warlock+conceal from one defender guardain squad it could be a good idea to get a 5man dire-avenger sqaud for the falcon. Scoring tank no.2. Gives it somthing to do when it looses both its weapons!

solid gold. 60 pts and makes one of the hardest to kill tanks in the game a scoring unit.

Well, one Farseer w/ runes of warding, doom would be sufficient.
Moreover, I'd replace one Guardian squad and Falcon by another Dire Avenger unit mounted in a Serpent.

This would give another 160 pts to spend. Either I'd beef up the Banshees or include two Vypers.

Hmmm. Good advice, everyone.
A few points:

1) I have very few 5th Ed. games under my belt. Due to this, I forget that Warlocks +Conceal can usually be done away with if the terrain is at all decent.
2) I took 8 Banshees in a squad because I only have a squad of 8 painted the same way. I have 2 more painted Banshees, but they are from 1100BC and not painted the same.
3) I have a hard time NOT taking Mind War. It works out for me more often than not. I am not opposed to dropping it, but I *really* like this power...
4) I LOVE the Avengers in the Falcon bit.
5) Tempest Launcher vs. Reaper Launcher: At the making of that list, points were a bigger issue, so the Tempest was first to go. Going to revisit it when I re-work the list in a few minutes.
6) Wraithlord small arms were chosen as such because the model is the old one and is cast that way.


REVISED LIST:

HQ
Farseer - Singing Spear, Doom, Mind War, RoWarding, Spirit Stones ------------- 138
Farseer - Doom, Fortune, Spirit Stones ---------------------------------------------- 130

ELITES
Howling Banshees (9+Exarch) - Exarch: Executioner, War Shout, Acrobatic -------------- 332
Wave Serpent - EML, Spirit Stone, Star Engines

TROOPS
Dire Avengers (9+Exarch) - Exarch: 2x Avenger Catapults, Bladestorm ----- 302
Wave Serpent - Starcannon, Spirit Stone, Star Engines
Dire Avengers (6) ------------------------------------------------------------------- 72
Defender Guardians (12) - EML ---------------------------------------------------------- 116
Defender Guardians (12) - EML ---------------------------------------------------------- 116

FAST ATTACK
Vyper - Shuriken Cannon --------------------------------------------------------------75

HEAVY SUPPORT
Dark Reapers (4+Exarch) - Exarch: Reaper Launcher, Fast Shot ---------------- 207
Wraithlord - Flamer, Shuri-cat, Bright Lance --------------------------------------- 130
Falcon - EML, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone, Vec. Engines ------------------------------ 180

Total: 1748


- I see the importance of Doom+Fortune for the Banshees as well as topping the squad off. Still trying to work that Mind War in though...
- After dropping the Spirit Stones on the tanks, I must say, I don't feel good about it. I feel... vulnerable. I understand the rationale, it's just that I've been taking Spirit Stones for more than a decade. Not taking them now seems frightening...
- Vyper is nothing more than another target for them to deal with. A points soak that may make my opponent shoot at it rather than at something that matters.



Thanks for the feedback and opinions. How about some more?



Ghidorah

I personally think 12" > than blast tempest. Crack-shot I think is more worth it than fast shot IMO.

That falcon wants to sit back (ideally not move at all) to fire 3 str 8 weapons a turn. Vectored engines wont be needed.

If you want that vyper to survive, give it an EML so it can stay-away from anti-tank threats & still be viable to shoot.

Otherwise, much improved

Ghidorah wrote:3) I have a hard time NOT taking Mind War. It works out for me more often than not. I am not opposed to dropping it, but I *really* like this power...
6) Wraithlord small arms were chosen as such because the model is the old one and is cast that way.

Noted

- After dropping the Spirit Stones on the tanks, I must say, I don't feel good about it. I feel... vulnerable. I understand the rationale, it's just that I've been taking Spirit Stones for more than a decade. Not taking them now seems frightening...

I know how you feel. I'm still working my way thought the same thing. I wonder if there's a support group with a 12 step program for this. Spirit Stone Adicts Anonymous? But with the new rules, they are much less of a requirement. In 3rd or 4th, it was death to have your skimmers stop moving, so you needed to have the protection from stunning that spirit stones offered. These days, losing a round of movement is anoying, but it doesn't mean that you skimmmer all of a sudden becomes 50% more likely to be killed as it did back in the old days. So realize, it's ok to let go.

As far as the reaper exarch goes, lets take a look at some math for a moment.
Exarch with reaper launcher shooting at T3 targets with 3+ save or worse
3 shots, no cover => 1.7 kills
3 shots, 4+ cover => .83 kills
2 shots, ignore cover => 1.48 kills

Basic reaper shooting
2 shots, no cover => .89 kills
2 shots, 4+ cover => .44 kills

So what we can learn from this is that the fast shot exarch is about twice as killy as a regular reaper. We can also determine that you'll need to be shooting the exarch at targets that are out of cover 77% of the time in order for fast shot to be as good as crack shot. So you'll have to figure out which is better for you. If you are shooting at targets out of cover more than 77% of the time, stick with fast shot. If you think you are shooting at targets in cover more than 23% of the time, then go with crack shot. In most cases, this is going to favor crack shot. The big bonus for crack shot is that it not only ignores cover but also rerolls failed wounds.