Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So a thought crossed my mind about the Lash of Submission. Many people don't like this rule, not because of any advantage it might confer, but because it's exceptional to the regular rules, that it 'breaks the game'.

So it occurred to me that a way of aligning it with the rules a little better might be to forget all the movement business and dial it back to causing pinning.

At this point, you'll probably think: Well, that would suck. You'd be right. Taking a Daemon Prince that needs to pass a psychic test to be able to pin units within 24" and line of sight, particularly at the points value stated in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, isn't worth it.

However, here's the idea with pinning. Firstly, introduce a roll to hit, so that the Lash of Submission is explicitly a psychic shooting attack, and make the pinning automatic upon hitting. That is to say, if the unit is not normally immune to pinning, it is automatically pinned upon being hit by the Lash of Submission. If the unit is normally immune to pinning, then it must pass a pinning test. Vehicle models are automatically Shaken.

I'm not proposing this as an official change to the rule, just as a house rule that people might want to adopt to make their games a little different.

Your thoughts?

I thought people didn't like lash of submission because there's two of them and the rest of the army's made up of Khornate troops.

The rule sounds good. If you remove the word pinning from it and call it suppression or something there seems no room for complaint.

Sounds like a reasonable way to do things. I'm not sure a roll to hit is really a good way to go about it (rather than just a normal psy test) but the idea is solid.

From my view there are two things about the lash that I dislike:

1. It 'feels' gamey, specifically meaning using it to bunch up troops for template fire or drag them off an objective on the last turn. It does not feel like a hell spawned antic of the prince(ess) of pleasure and pain comingled.

2. Certain armies can defend against it others are jsut left to hang, and even some which can defend agaisnt it have to bring specific wargear to do so.

My thinking to resolve these issues would be one for each.

1. The owning player moves the unit the distance indicated, just like a fall back move.

2. Allow a cover save versus its effect so units can have a choice of responses to it (going to ground or not, attempting to hide in cover)

I think these changes would remove alot of the negativeity it engenders.

Jack

I would think that giving the opposing player's unit an extra free move in your turn (that the opponent is in control of) would guarantee that Lash wouldn't get taken. That's going to far the other way.

Your suggestion 2 seems more workable.

No offense, but you're all insane. Lash is fine the way it is and the FAQ goes even further to support what everyone else feared was true.

Lash is a 20pt power that doesn't cause damage.

The real hitch with a Lash list, is that you have to take two, to really guarantee any kind of a constant advantage. That point sink alone should be enough of advantage to you, the opposing player. Lash lists aren't hard to win against, they require different tactics.

Instead of developing some insane house rule that contradicts a codex, play against your Lash opponent until you can beat him consistently into the dirt.

Good luck finding a Chaos player that will play under that house rule.

Double-post. Dang.

Asmodeus:

I think you missed the part of my post where I said:

"Many people don't like this rule, not because of any advantage it might confer, but because it's exceptional to the regular rules, that it 'breaks the game'."

As it stands the Lash of Submission is something that only weak and clueless players fear. It's just so easily shut down, even if you're silly enough to take two. To repeat, my proposal isn't about whether the power is effective or not, but whether it coheres well with the rest of the game rules. As it stands it's simply too one-dimensional.

In other words, the Lash of Submission has all but disappeared from my gaming group because we've learned the tactics and moved on. It's a one-trick pony, and one that we think is improved by this proposal. The effect on vehicles is especially important so that the player has a reason to field the Lash of Submission. It's no secret that the Lash of Submission is useless against mechanized opponents.

The Lash of Submission is fine the way it is from a game-advantage perspective, if a little weak because it's a one-trick pony. The real problem with it is that it's a bugger from the the perspective of the game. My proposal is intended to diversify its worth to a Chaos Space Marine player, while getting rid of all that fiddly movement that changes the game.

As for finding a Chaos Space Marine player that will play under this house rule, I would. That's kinda why I came up with it, so I could field a Noise Marine army without throwing the game.

Ah, I misunderstood your post then. My apologizes.

I agree that Lash is a gamey one-trick pony.

The auto-pin thing is kinda over the top though, imo. I think they should have just trashed lash and give back aura of acquiescence.

Asmodeus:

No problem.

About the automatic pinning, it's not automatic. It still requires passing a psychic test, a range of 24", a line of sight, and then a to hit roll (okay, a 2+, but still). Fearless units take a pinning test as normal. Vehicles are shaken. It seems fairly well-balanced to me.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I would think that giving the opposing player's unit an extra free move in your turn (that the opponent is in control of) would guarantee that Lash wouldn't get taken. That's going to far the other way.

Your suggestion 2 seems more workable.

Still allows you to drag units into charge range or away from objectives and cover, it just moves away from the clumping and then blast template affect, which as I said feels gamey (i.e. it only makes sense in the context of the game rules not in the context of the setting/fluff). All it changes is how the indiviual models end up moving, the unit is stll affected as before (lash player still nominates direction, etc...).

I'll second Nurglitch's point, I don't find the lash overpowered, just not very fun (for the reasons I stated above).

Jack

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I would think that giving the opposing player's unit an extra free move in your turn (that the opponent is in control of) would guarantee that Lash wouldn't get taken. That's going to far the other way.

Your suggestion 2 seems more workable.

Still allows you to drag units into charge range or away from objectives and cover, it just moves away from the clumping and then blast template appraoch, which as I said feels gamey (i.e. it only makes sense in the context of the game rules not in the context of the setting/fluff). All it changes is how the indiviual models end up moving, the unit is stll affected as before (lash player still nominates direction, etc...).

I'll second Nurglitch's point, I don't find the lash overpowered, just not very fun (for the reasons I stated above).

Jack

I think this is an understandable alternative, but IMO even Fearless troops should be auto-pinned. My thoughts here are because if you make them test, most if not all Fearless models have Ld10 anyway so failing is unlikely.

Well, considering that Fearless models are normally immune to pinning, forcing them to take a pinning test seemed like a nice compromise between automatic pinning and automatic exemption from pinning.

Think of it like the effect of Fearless on No Retreat!: it depends on the quality of the Fearless troops so that heavily armoured Fearless models benefit more from being Fearless.

This dependence on relative quality seems to be the direction of the game these days (Hit and Run, Preferred Enemy, etc), so it felt like the right sort of compromise to adhere to design principles evident in the game (if not stated by the designers).

I think the lash is fine as it is. Unless it propelled chaos armies into an unstoppable tourney dominating force then it works out and is balanced. There are certainly other exploits to wave the finger at. Tau/Ork wound allocation units come to mind.

Forcing Fearless models to take a pinning test is "breaking the game" just as much as the current LoS (note I dont think it's broken at all). I know a dude that had 2 Lashes in his army and kept losing because he focused all his tactics on using those lashes. IMO it really isnt that powerful (unless the person using it knows what theyre doing... but if they do then youve bigger problems than a lash).

Either way, it's a good thought but to me its pointless as it is not needed. But that is just my slightly humble opinion

augustus5:

We're not talking about whether the Lash of Submission is balanced though. I'm saying it's not much fun to play with or against, because it's a one-trick pony. Hence my proposal to broaden its application and stream-line it with the regular game rules.

anticitizen013:

Forcing Fearless models to take a pinning test does break the game, but not as much as a power that allows one player to move the other player's units outside of phase.

My proposal makes the unit does something it would otherwise do but for a special rule.

The Lash of Submission, as it stands, has the opposing player move a unit, which would never ordinarily happen. It also has the unit being moved in the opposing player's turn (shooting phase), which would never ordinarily happen.

Hence my proposal does break the game, but not all game breakage is equally bad, else special rules would be right out.

Again, my proposal isn't about the Lash of Submission's power. Indeed, I hope that my proposal retains its power. My proposal is that the Lash of Submission isn't fun to play with or against, and that here's an alternative that I think is fun to play with or against.

Nurglitch wrote:Forcing Fearless models to take a pinning test does break the game, but not as much as a power that allows one player to move the other player's units outside of phase.

Sorry, that's what I implied when I said this:

anticitizen013 wrote:Forcing Fearless models to take a pinning test is "breaking the game" just as much as the current LoS (note I dont think it's broken at all).

Alternatives are always good. There's also nothing wrong (IMO) in creating your own powers to use in your gaming group. That doesn't just limit to your version of the lash... meaning that it would be cool to create some other special powers (perhaps even mission related).

When all's said and done, however, I think your version is pretty solid

EDIT because I missed a word

My only problem with lash of submission is that it would fit into the fluff better if it were renamed and aligned with Tzeentch instead of Slaanesh, since he's the one who is constantly screwing with people. It idea about the pinning-based power seems more like a Slaanesh thing.

anticitizen013:

I'm sorry, but "just as much" in no way implies "not as much". I'm just sayin'...

That said, yeah, of course there's nothing wrong with home-brew rules for one's own group. But since it seems to work fairly well for us, and the rest of my gaming group thinks I'm insane for posting on message boards, I thought I might share it with the broader community.

warpcrafter:

Yeah, there is the whole 'abasing oneself in submission' that the power's name suggests.

Whoops I read your post wrong. My mistake.

What I meant was I get to move your troops in my shooting phase, or I get to pin a fearless unit. Both are "breaking the rules". One more than the other yes, but still.

In any case... if it works for you guys, go for it