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 blackmage wrote:
i dont know where you play but... mathammer make me laugh,,,did you forget how many stratagems/psy powers/abilities exist making weapons far more lethal? re rolls, plus to damage, malus to saves, weapons causing mortal wounds in addition to normal damage.. should i go on?

yes you are very right you can greatly multiple the effectiveness of your damage out put but you get alot more if you multiple 10 vs if you multiple .1..... and as such the GUO is literally the most durable thing in the game by a large margin on the turn it arive for the point. The LoC is also considerably durabile and very reliable as it's durability comes from items you can jsut take as you please. By comparison morty and magnus fall quite short and both have to start on the table and need a turn to buff themselves to actualy achive thier levels of durability.

As such math hammer does matter when you compare it other things, and again when i use my own combos to mitigate my opponents combos of damage, which wile extensive still isn't enough to bring both fo them down when they arrive. Again comparing list thath ave palces very well in tournament have brought boith magnus and morty who for various reasons fall short in terms of durability and maybe alittle better in damage to the GUO and the LoC, while they also are a smaller hit on the points price on your list.

To say mathammer makes you lauigh is like saying comparing models at all is pointless, and if you think that's the case would you mind buying my scatter bikes off me i'll get em to you at a 75% discount what i got em for. It's a pretty good deal.

From there use mortal wounds hurt, but the vast majority of a armies mortal wound output is restricted to the nearist target and the psykic phase.. when the two big guys who up the closest thing will be bloodletters, pink horrors, and if i went first nurglings. As the psykic phase happens before the shooting phase, being forced to target the closest thing is pretty poor as you can use your shooting to clear up the teleported in screens. Other than that there are a few ranged weapons that do mortal wounds that are used a whole ton and not enough to make any major impact, and most stratagems for mortal wound generation tend not to be used very often in the competitive seen as they require you to bring specific low cost effectiveness weapons.

So two thing:

just because you can kill stuff doesn't make it bad... you can kill everything, and if this was the case than the nurgle tress would be the best because they can't die.

I know math hammer isn't the beat all end all and thier is an intangible aspect to the game that matters. Those have to be discused... that said all the concerns where literally "they don't do damage and they die"... the math hammer shows well they do okay to good damage and they are actualy the best at not dying when compare to other competitive picks. Thing are best used in context.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brian888 wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Why are you taking the GUO...
Or the LoC....
or squads of 10 letters?
Or Bloodmaster instead of skulltaker?

as above both the GUO and LoC are very durable models and together it's hard to take out both let alone one when you look at the above number information. the GUO when he comes down require entire armies of some fo the ebst shooting avaible to reliably kill, and similar is true for the LoC who needs at least 1400pts of dedicated shooting to finish off.

The squads of 10 blood letters are thier to fill battlaion for 3 cp that are spent of the 30 deep striking blood letters. As is one of the question i'm not sure i like the 10 bloodletter they are only there to make a khorne detachment for reroll charges and other than that they act as chaffe for the daemon princes to hide in, and as objective grabers. As per one of the question i asked, is it worth having the khorne detachment or would it be better to bust it down and take more pink horrors by making it a mixed detachment. I kinda wished you would have just answered that question instead... it would have been more constructive... and would have answered my question...

Why would i take the skulltaker??? he cost more point than the blood master, for a unit that wont be charging turn 1, provides no needed buffs to my bloodletter bomb that's already hitting oin 2s, and all i want is +1 str so i can would GEQ on 2s or plague marine level stuff on 3s if i need to, which is way more signigant than anything a skulltaker can bring. If it's just for the +1 to hit buff?? i'd rather spend 70 point on 10 more blood letters actualy getting into combat turn one and doing thier damage, while also providing +1 to hit than skull taker for 84pts who does nothing turn 1 and is probably alone turn 2....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Whilst the LoC I can see some use to: 3++ re-rolling 1s staying power, +2 to psychic tests and average damage output, but I can't see the use of GUOs: slow moving, average damage output (less if you don't have buffs) and good staying power. However just having good staying power isn't enough in an edition where things doe so easily, it needs to actually do something as well.

durability the GUO is about up there with morty. he last that armor save which is not insignifgant, but in that he becomes considerable more vulnerable to las cannon and such. The GUO cost ~155pts less than morty but has the same wounds/toughness/ifell no pain/-1 to invulnerablewhich all makes him more durable to las cannon fire than morty is, and with rumored exclusive access to warp surge and denizens he is a absolute tank compared to morty whjo can get sniped off the table on the first turn. From that damage wise point for point t heres some trade offs for sure. the GUO against big thing for the points just put in more work and that before you throw on virulence bless and notice the nurgle locus making him even more powerful. Smaller thing morty has the grenade that could trade off with the flail and he has the reaping attack that the GUO sort of doesn't have until you realize the GUO has shrivel pox, nurgles rot, and stream of curroption that he can tach into against armies where either spell is more powerful which more often than not will out pace plague wind and curse of the leper. That said morty has better range on his spell.

So i think under that comparison i give the nod to the GUO, while he might be alittle less punch against hordes of stuff atleast you'll get to play with the thing for a turn or two before it dies unlike morty who dies turn one against most list if your opponent goes first. Interestingly morty has been in competive list and has placed well

Mortarion also has access to Blades of Putrefaction, Death to the False Emperor, and Veterans of the Long War. If he's within range of a Daemon Prince's bubble, he's generating an extra attack (and remember, these are those hideously powerful attacks from Silence) on to-hit rolls of 5+, and extra mortal wounds on to-wound rolls of 5+. He's super-duper killy and can easily delete a 30-model unit of GEQs a turn by himself.

If you got morty deleting 1 squad of 30 GeQ and then he dies which he will and again i do say most things do die in one or two turns for sure... that's really not enough... that doesn't even cover the price tag you spend on morty over a GUO... That's also assuming you make it into the combat, which you'd need a second caster to warp time you to actualy get thier on the first turn (which is pretty damn good)

Now i'm not saying morty is terrible or bad, but using morty as the foil via which we veiw the GUO if one can be good i'm argue so in the other. I'm not really trying to say the GUO is strickly better.

That's why Miasma of Pestilence and Deathshroud Terminators are your friend. Always keep a few around to tank for Morty.

Brian888 wrote:
That's why Miasma of Pestilence and Deathshroud Terminators are your friend. Always keep a few around to tank for Morty.

i agree with that thought... though then you add the cost of the death shroud terminators onto morty, and do the death shroud terminators start on the table with morty so he can get his first turn, or.... do the ydeep strike in so they can protect him after he's moved 12" up the table, or do you have to have btoh units because we are spend alot of investment on morty just getting him there, and not really multiplying his effectiveness.

They aren't really that expensive anymore at 35 points a pop.

That being said, I think the GUO's real strength is in his force-multiplying capabilities. Reverberating Summons is potentially amazing, especially combined with Fleshy Abundance.

Brian888 wrote:
They aren't really that expensive anymore at 35 points a pop.
Whoa this are cheaper than i thought they'd be what are thier stat lines??


That being said, I think the GUO's real strength is in his force-multiplying capabilities. Reverberating Summons is potentially amazing, especially combined with Fleshy Abundance.

yeah i agree the bell is pretty is great, but it requires you to start him on the table, and he also really needs a whole army of nurgle to use it.

On top of that your opponent can counter this by just not core hounding your army and instead killing each unit to the man before moving on to the next unit. Plaguebears with miasma also encourage your opponent to do this as best they can. That being said it doesn't make the bell useless and does force your opponent to really make sure they kill everyone in the unit. I kind makes your army sorta like necrons.

I personally prefer the flail and sword and sword and just deep striking the guy. hes tough enough to either bring in more points than he is worth as just a distraction, and if ignored he can bring some devasting attacks with the amazing lore of nurgle and his llail/ bilesword combo allow him to take advantage of shrive pox and virualence. When making list i only consider tournament scene where your opponent can change and how you must deal with them can also change. So i like units who i can atleast semi convert between anti horde, elite, or tanks.

mmimzie wrote:
Whoa this are cheaper than i thought they'd be what are thier stat lines??

3+ for WS and BS, S 5, T 5, 2 wounds, 3 attacks, LD 9, 2+/4++ saves and 5+ FNP. They're sloooooooow (4" movement and their advances are halved), but they can teleport in. Their Manreapers are pretty grisly at +3 S, -3 AP, D3 damage. Death Guard Characters (except Morty) who are near them get +1 attack.

Hey everyone with the new codex out and the FAQ on the way I was thinking of a list like this for tournament play:


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons) [44 PL, 846pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Chaos Allegiance: Khorne

+ Troops +

Bloodletters [8 PL, 150pts]: 19x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Instrument of Chaos

Bloodletters [8 PL, 150pts]: 19x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Instrument of Chaos

Bloodletters [8 PL, 150pts]: 19x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Instrument of Chaos

+ HQ +

Bloodmaster [3 PL, 56pts]: Blade of Blood, The Crimson Crown

Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster [17 PL, 340pts]: Armour of Scorn, Axe of Khorne

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [22 PL, 333pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord with Jump Pack [6 PL, 93pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Mark of Khorne

Sorcerer with Jump Pack [7 PL, 120pts]: Bolt pistol, Death Hex, Force sword, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [39 PL, 765pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ Heavy Support +

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

+ HQ +

Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Daemonic axe, Khorne

++ Total: [105 PL, 1944pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

The only thing to add to the list is skullreaver in Khorne DP as i cant do it on Battlescribe for some reason.

I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions on things to tweak or if this is viable. Also what tobdo with the remaining points. Finally, I am having trouble with deployment as i want to DS everything but i need to keep the required 50 % on the board so any advice would be appreaciated.

Can't have the Skullreaver on a CSM Daemon Prince.

move the Dp in demon detachment and give it skullreaver

I know the conversation is a few pages back, but plague toads/poxriders already got a nerf in Chapter approved. They both went up 18pt a pop.

Question. Can Chaos Daemons use the psychic powers from the Chaos Space Marines Codex that is specific to their god?

So Slaanesh Heralds from a mono-detachement could use the 5+ FNP one from the CSM codex?

Or could Bel'akor be buffed by a LOC with the +1 invuln from the CSM codex for tzeentch units?

No, those powers are only for CSM.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Can't have the Skullreaver on a CSM Daemon Prince.

I though that by using the strategem for extra relics i could give the relics to anyone who qualified. The only restriction i saw for skullreaver was the weapon it could replace.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
No, those powers are only for CSM.

Well that's sad.

Darksteve wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Can't have the Skullreaver on a CSM Daemon Prince.

I though that by using the strategem for extra relics i could give the relics to anyone who qualified. The only restriction i saw for skullreaver was the weapon it could replace.

There's a lot of moving parts with that logic. I do not believe that you are correct. You could make an argument that CSM Codex Stratagems effect Death Guard Codex units, however Daemons and CSM are two completely different factions, so this is a brand new case they will need to FAQ one way or the other.

Darksteve wrote:
Hey everyone with the new codex out and the FAQ on the way I was thinking of a list like this for tournament play:


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons) [44 PL, 846pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Chaos Allegiance: Khorne

+ Troops +

Bloodletters [8 PL, 150pts]: 19x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Instrument of Chaos

Bloodletters [8 PL, 150pts]: 19x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Instrument of Chaos

Bloodletters [8 PL, 150pts]: 19x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Instrument of Chaos

+ HQ +

Bloodmaster [3 PL, 56pts]: Blade of Blood, The Crimson Crown

Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster [17 PL, 340pts]: Armour of Scorn, Axe of Khorne

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [22 PL, 333pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord with Jump Pack [6 PL, 93pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Mark of Khorne

Sorcerer with Jump Pack [7 PL, 120pts]: Bolt pistol, Death Hex, Force sword, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [39 PL, 765pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ Heavy Support +

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

+ HQ +

Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Daemonic axe, Khorne

++ Total: [105 PL, 1944pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

The only thing to add to the list is skullreaver in Khorne DP as i cant do it on Battlescribe for some reason.

I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions on things to tweak or if this is viable. Also what tobdo with the remaining points. Finally, I am having trouble with deployment as i want to DS everything but i need to keep the required 50 % on the board so any advice would be appreaciated.

you've gotten some good advice, I'd just like to say you would probably be better off with a skulltaker than a bloodmaster to hang out with your bloodletters.

Did I read correctly earlier in the thread that someone knew the Daemon FAQ was coming out?

Gw said one to two weeks after every codex release an faq will be released to fix issues or modify broken things.

Does anyone think the Blue Scribes are worth it now? All spells expect the treason of tzeentch has decent uses now, and from what i understand the power works even if you cast the same spell earlier in the same round with another caster?

 ThePie wrote:
Does anyone think the Blue Scribes are worth it now? All spells expect the treason of tzeentch has decent uses now, and from what i understand the power works even if you cast the same spell earlier in the same round with another caster?

I'm not certain if the Scribes let you duplicate a power; I'd have to check on that. However, the Scribes (especially in cooperation with a Burning Chariot) are a pretty hard counter to enemy psykers. -2 to cast, and you lose that power for the rest of the game if you fail? Yeaaaaaaaaah.

Has anyone looked at Mamon and Corbax? Corbax seems like he is in a bad place. S6, no re-rolls to wound, and can get quite a few attacks. Seems like a good way to go after elite infantry, but I also think that a nurgle talons DP will do the job better. Corbax is more resilient, but I think I would rather have speed and sub 10W character. -1 to enemy psyker is nice, but eh...

Mamon looks a little more appealing now that we can deep strike..,.buuuuut he is 9PL, so it will cost 2. with 5" move I think that is the only way to take him, and he doesn't give re-rolls of 1 to anyone but himself and Necrosius. He has an OK flamer, and some pretty unique weapons. His stomp is kinda crazy, chance at 3+D3 dmg seems excellent for character killing. Fist is S9, but only -1 and 1dmg, with a 50% chance to deal additional D6 dmg.

Personally I feel they just don't bring as much synergy to the table as Codex units. They have nice models, are high toughness, but probably wont ever see a tournament table.

Oh yeah, and Uraka the Warfiend, the Khorne daemon prince. I ordered one planning on giving it wings for my axe DP, but this guy is pretty cool. While he doesn't give any synergy, he can become pretty awesome, and if you can just throw him at tactical marines, he will probably never die. Alike the two above, I don't think it's as good as a codex option, but this dude does look pretty fun. Potential to get to S10 is always cool!

A Rules Question, if you use Treason of Tzeentch on an enemy character and make him charge into an enemy unit, can that enemy choose to not hit that character in the fight phase or is he forced to?

Because i was thinking it might be a decent spell on the Lord of Change with his 2+ to cast, and then use both the reroll stratagem and reroll from gaze of fate to get it off more regularly to suicide enemy characters into blobs/big scary monsters.

As far as I know the player doesn't HAVE to have its models attack if they are in close combat, but I mean... why wouldn't they if they are already in there?

Azuza001 wrote:
As far as I know the player doesn't HAVE to have its models attack if they are in close combat, but I mean... why wouldn't they if they are already in there?

Ah damm, so treason of tzeentch is completely worthless then, if they are not forced to hit the character.

This was from the Designers Commentary:

Q: If any of your units are eligible to fight in the Fight phase, can you choose for them not to fight this turn? Also, if any of your units charged in the Charge phase, do they have to fight first in the Fight phase, or can you choose for them to wait until later in the phase?

A: All eligible units must fight in the Fight phase; they cannot ‘pass’ and wait for another phase. Additionally, a unit must fight when it is its time to do so; it cannot ‘hold’ in order to fight later in the phase. So if a unit charged in the preceding Charge phase, it must fight before any non-charging models in the Fight phase (barring any related abilities).Note that when a model fights, it must do all of its close combat attacks if it can do so – you cannot choose for it not to do so (though you can still choose which weapon it uses for each close combat attack).

I would need to check Treason of Tzeentchs wording though since it might not apply anyway.

Not necessarily, you can still attack his units with his own guy. Grabbing an HQ and pulling him out of position so that rerolls don't work, having him charge his own guys and really mess them up, heck if he has a plasma pistol on him make him overcharge just for the LOL's if it go's boom.

"Oh, you take plasma pistols on all of your Characters because why not? Let me show you..."

Heck, it would be hilarious to grab Murderfang or something really big and twist it, but the odds are not in your favor.

EDIT -

Anticitizen013 has it right, I was wrong, there ya go! It become more fun if they have to hit back. Maybe think of it as the guys in the unit trying to get their commander under control before he kills them all.

I just had to check the spell and yeah, it looks like the enemy would have to fight back because the "mind controlled" model is friendly (to the caster) which makes it enemy to the... uh... enemy, haha.

 anticitizen013 wrote:
I just had to check the spell and yeah, it looks like the enemy would have to fight back because the "mind controlled" model is friendly (to the caster) which makes it enemy to the... uh... enemy, haha.

Haha awesome, hadent really considered that spell before but now that it works like i hoped too it will be the funniest gak ever to use.

Cast treason of Tzeentch in a few games, never had it work once. Opponents have to swing back, but your opponent has to fail the leadership test which goes from unlikely to extremely unlikely if they remember they can just spend a CP on a roll that's probably 9 or less.

Azuza001 wrote:
I am having trouble trying to figure out how or if it's worth running seekers of slaanesh. I play an undivided deamon army so no loci, but seekers just seem underwhelming to me. They are fast but don't have the toughness / strength / or armor to really look like they can do much vs say fiends of slaanesh. Does anyone have any experience with how to the run them right now? Even sticking a Herald on them doesn't seem all that effective for the points. This sucks cause I like the models any have 6 of them.

Yeah, especially with charge after Advance being opened up to Fiends, I’m struggling to see what I’ll do with my Seekers. The Codex as a whole has seen some warranted reductions, but I can’t see what they were thinking with this. Maybe for charging first at something with fearsome high damage Overwatch? Having a wide frontage for some multi-charge shenanigans? They’ve gone up to 6 Power - and were struggling to be viable at 5 - and are now competing in Slaanesh with ‘hahaha you can’t run away’ and in fast attack with cheaper Flesh Hounds - that were fairly viable at 5. Fiends also have the advantage, sadly not relevant to your undivided army, that they can join two Heralds and a DP in a Supreme Command, which is a pretty decent accompaniment to an undivided Battalion with Daemonettes - or a soup army with Possessed and dinobots.

But, hey, Loyalists got a hike on their Lieutenant, which peeved my friend who’s added two to her Space Wolves.