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From the maths I've been doing lately I've concluded that Icarus Arrays were barely able to hold it's ground against a Neutron Laser when firing at a T7 flyer, it's better against light units with the keyword Fly, like jet packs, or Land Speeders, Raiders... Put Protector Imperative and the Neutron Laser is clearly better against T7+. However if the Flyrant have a 4++ that's problematic, the Icarus might be better off due to the number of shots.

It's hard mathhammering Neutron Lasers because of how random it is, you could, with a lot of luck, do 18 damage in one shot, but it's so random it hurts.

Yeah the Average DMG value is really deceptive in this case. Better would be a huge random sample of dice rolls, e.g. 10.000, from which the dmg distribution could be calculated.

 Aaranis wrote:
From the maths I've been doing lately I've concluded that Icarus Arrays were barely able to hold it's ground against a Neutron Laser when firing at a T7 flyer, it's better against light units with the keyword Fly, like jet packs, or Land Speeders, Raiders... Put Protector Imperative and the Neutron Laser is clearly better against T7+. However if the Flyrant have a 4++ that's problematic, the Icarus might be better off due to the number of shots.

It's hard mathhammering Neutron Lasers because of how random it is, you could, with a lot of luck, do 18 damage in one shot, but it's so random it hurts.

Just point some robots at them. This came up a few pages back and our Wrathbots straight wreck Tyrant spam.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
From the maths I've been doing lately I've concluded that Icarus Arrays were barely able to hold it's ground against a Neutron Laser when firing at a T7 flyer, it's better against light units with the keyword Fly, like jet packs, or Land Speeders, Raiders... Put Protector Imperative and the Neutron Laser is clearly better against T7+. However if the Flyrant have a 4++ that's problematic, the Icarus might be better off due to the number of shots.

It's hard mathhammering Neutron Lasers because of how random it is, you could, with a lot of luck, do 18 damage in one shot, but it's so random it hurts.

Just point some robots at them. This came up a few pages back and our Wrathbots straight wreck Tyrant spam.

Yeah true that. Lately I've been dragged to the dark side of AdMech and played Mars with Cawl when playing high stakes games at my shop (we're having a league). Today I played against a Death Guard player at 2500 pts, a very intense game as I grabbed victory on 6th turn with 2 Dragoons killing just the right amount of Plaguebearers to own the objective.

I had 4 Robots, 1 Neutronager, Cawl, 1 Dominus, 3 Kataphron Destroyers with plasma, 6x Vanguards, 5x Vanguards, 6x Rangers with two arc rifes, 6x Rangers with two arquebuses, 3x Dragoons, 1 Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, psyker, in a Taurox Prime with 2 Acolytes and 5 Scions, 1 Deathwatch Captain with jetpack, combi-melta and TH, 5 Vanguard Veterans with TH&SS, and something I wanted to try: 10 Fulgurites in an Imperial Bastion.

With Wrath of Mars on the Robots I managed to kill Mortarion in one go (my opponent was disappointed he played him for the first time), and later a Great Unclean One popped too close to me so I shot him down to 9W before engaging my boosted Dragoons on it, killing it. The 10 Fulgurites worked pretty well, they got out of the Bastion to charge a Daemon Prince and slayed him in one go, later they killed a few Plague Marines, Nurglings and Typhus, so I can safely say they were worth it. They had some help from the Deathwatch Captain too, who always do wonders when I play him. It's refreshing to play something so mobile and hard-hitting from time to time.

I still need to better place my Robots, I screened efficiently against deep strikes at deployment, but when I planted them to kill Mortarion, he changed plans and retreated his army to protect his objectives and so they were out of things to shoot at around turn 4. We had the deployment where you have a third of the table, small side, so it was deeper than I'm used to.

EDIT: How do you fare against Death Guard/Nurgle usually ? For me it's always synonymous of eternal games, as neither side can table the other, and everything is SO TOUGH. They basically reduce my damage by a third and so really mess with my plans. It's always been close games against DG, which is fun in itself, but it's really exhausting.

 Aaranis wrote:
From the maths I've been doing lately I've concluded that Icarus Arrays were barely able to hold it's ground against a Neutron Laser when firing at a T7 flyer, it's better against light units with the keyword Fly, like jet packs, or Land Speeders, Raiders... Put Protector Imperative and the Neutron Laser is clearly better against T7+. However if the Flyrant have a 4++ that's problematic, the Icarus might be better off due to the number of shots.

It's hard mathhammering Neutron Lasers because of how random it is, you could, with a lot of luck, do 18 damage in one shot, but it's so random it hurts.

Neutron is only better against Icarus against T6+ without an invulnerable save. I honestly do think a lot of people are clinging to Neutron unjustifiably. Icarus has been better than Neutron since Smash Bros arrived on the scene.

Didn't do the maths against a 4++ to be honest, I trust you when you say that, but my own Icarus has never been able to do much in its few uses. Not saying the Neutron was useful every game either, sometimes it only wants to roll 1s to Wound...

Suzuteo wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
From the maths I've been doing lately I've concluded that Icarus Arrays were barely able to hold it's ground against a Neutron Laser when firing at a T7 flyer, it's better against light units with the keyword Fly, like jet packs, or Land Speeders, Raiders... Put Protector Imperative and the Neutron Laser is clearly better against T7+. However if the Flyrant have a 4++ that's problematic, the Icarus might be better off due to the number of shots.

It's hard mathhammering Neutron Lasers because of how random it is, you could, with a lot of luck, do 18 damage in one shot, but it's so random it hurts.

Neutron is only better against Icarus against T6+ without an invulnerable save. I honestly do think a lot of people are clinging to Neutron unjustifiably. Icarus has been better than Neutron since Smash Bros arrived on the scene.

Have you considered using custodes bikes in your current list Suzuteo or are you sticking with your current stock.

That is assuming work has allowed you to get a game in

Ideasweasel wrote:

That is assuming work has allowed you to get a game in

That's not even the start of it. I would have to buy Custodes bikes, build them, paint them... sigh.

Are they good though? I hesitate because of the point cost. I feel like I can get more Dragoons or even a solid unit of Marines in.

 Aaranis wrote:
Didn't do the maths against a 4++ to be honest, I trust you when you say that, but my own Icarus has never been able to do much in its few uses. Not saying the Neutron was useful every game either, sometimes it only wants to roll 1s to Wound...

To be brutally honest, the only reason why a pair of Icarus remain in most lists is for the Spearhead; they are not so great against the current meta. If you want to do Soup, bringing just a unit of 5-6x Mars Kastelans will work.

In the current meta at my LGS (I never play anywhere else) which is starting to get borderline competitive (which means solid but somewhat themed lists) my Neutron Laser gets more work done than the Icarus, I sadly rarely face flying infantry and such, so I never have the right targets.

I see.

Here's a fun list I have been looking into:

Wondering if I can fit a Company Commander in somehow to take an Aquila. Hm...

Suzuteo wrote:
I see.

Here's a fun list I have been looking into:

Spoiler:

Iron Hands Battalion Detachment - 763

HQ - 231
Space Marine Captain on Bike - Twin Boltgun, Thunder Hammer, The Shield Eternal, Warlord: Iron Resolve (136)
Chaplain on Bike - Crozius Arcanum, Boltgun (95)

Troop - 165
5x Space Marine Scout - Astartes Shotgun, Bolt Pistol (55)
5x Space Marine Scout - Astartes Shotgun, Bolt Pistol (55)
5x Space Marine Scout - Astartes Shotgun, Bolt Pistol (55)

Elite - 367
Apothecary on Bike - Twin Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword (82)
5x Company Veterans on Bikes - Twin Boltgun, Thunder Hammer, Stormshield (285)

Mars Battalion Detachment - 1229

HQ - 287
1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 120
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine

Heavy Support - 550
5x Kastelan Robots - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blasters

Fast Attack - 272
4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

Total: 1992 points
9 Command Points

Wondering if I can fit a Company Commander in somehow to take an Aquila. Hm...

Looks interesting. And iron hands allies seems quite fluffy. If you can’t squeeze him in would you go the monitor malevelous route?

Just want to let you know Suzuteo, company bikers veterans are currently trash. They are waaaaay too expensive for their statline and since they're an index entry their price will never change.

Ideasweasel wrote:

Looks interesting. And iron hands allies seems quite fluffy. If you can’t squeeze him in would you go the monitor malevelous route?

Nah. I need the Captain to be the Warlord for yet another 6+ save. I guess for this one, I have to rely on the 9 CP.

 ultimentra wrote:
Just want to let you know Suzuteo, company bikers veterans are currently trash. They are waaaaay too expensive for their statline and since they're an index entry their price will never change.

I noticed. Haha. But their real purpose is to act as extra Wounds for the Captain. It's the old Smashf***er build.

Wrathbots are NOT the answer to Tyrant spam. On average you need 3 bots sitting with WoM to kill one Flyrant. There are 6 more and 3 to 4 Murlocs. So no, Dakkastelans are not enough.Dragoosn are way better yet still one have to get more than one or even two into melee.

Shield Captains on Dawn Eagle are a great help. When playing nids I use mine to combo them with vangaurd and going melee with murlocs. One of them is usually enough to kill a murloc. against flyrants though...well, they are pretty much the equivalent of a flyrant but a little worse. I stick to my three shield captains, they are what AdMech needs. great melee, fly, character, charge block capability...just wow

Iago40k wrote:
Wrathbots are NOT the answer to Tyrant spam. On average you need 3 bots sitting with WoM to kill one Flyrant. There are 6 more and 3 to 4 Murlocs. So no, Dakkastelans are not enough.Dragoosn are way better yet still one have to get more than one or even two into melee.

Shield Captains on Dawn Eagle are a great help. When playing nids I use mine to combo them with vangaurd and going melee with murlocs. One of them is usually enough to kill a murloc. against flyrants though...well, they are pretty much the equivalent of a flyrant but a little worse. I stick to my three shield captains, they are what AdMech needs. great melee, fly, character, charge block capability...just wow

Two Wrathbots will do one Flyrant. Out of the gate, the two do 4 mortal wounds on average, while the shots themselves do about 9 wounds through the 5++. So six will nuke a trio a turn in Protector mode. Unsurprisingly, this amount of damage is about the same they would do to a Mawloc, because it has the 5+ save and T6, but 12 wounds. We are doing ~13 on average rolls (with Cawl). Meaning that if they don't get all their stuff to our Robots by T3, they have nothing left on the table by T4, since all those MCs are pretty much the whole army.

That is not counting our Dragoons, Neutronagers, and/or any Guard elements. You toss in Bassies and Neutronagers and they are absolutely wrecked.

Essentially, it becomes a deployment game to buy those robots enough time to do their job... so, SOP.

Flyrants have a 4++ IIRC.

So I'm building a primarily Custodes force, but I'm looking for allies. Do you all think AdMech would be a good compliment? I'm looking for my ally to add: 1. CP. 2. Long-range anti-tank.

So a cheap Battalion with either Dakkabots or Neutron Onagers is where my mind went first. My meta is competitive so the -1 from Stygies might be too much to give up for Cawl.

Any advice would be great! Aiming for 2k points total with 500-800 allocated to an ally.

You could take a a Batallion with a TPD and TPE and 3x5 Ranger.
Add in 3 Neutronagers for long range anti tank. That cost you about 700 points.

 lash92 wrote:
Flyrants have a 4++ IIRC.

Wow. I was going off the Index. Good to see they got a buff they pretty much didn't need.

SO! We do 4 mortal wounds and 5 or 6 wounds. Really, it is still pretty much dead. And that is just two robots. Again, we have a lot of other firepower that can try to chip off those last few wounds.

Robots, Icarus, Dragoons. We probably have the best anti-flying-invulnerable-save weapons in the meta right now.

Hive Tyrants needed the buff as they were not used at all before it.

Wow I played a 1500 pts game against T'au yesterday, and oh did it hurt. I'm still somewhat traumatized. So this guys only has a few games in of 8th but has played many times in previous editions. I plan a game with him, he tells me he's playing T'au, so i tell him I play AdMech, and I quickly write a 1500 pts list with Stygies, nothing too harsh. I even threw a CC relic on one of my Domini. I had:

- 2x Domini, one Warlord with Monitor Malevolus and the other with the Cog Mother or something
- 6x Vanguards
- 5x Vanguards
- 6x Rangers, 2 Arc Rifles
- 6x Rangers, 2 Arquebuses
- 3x Dragoons
- 10 Fulgurites
- 5 Infiltrators
- Datasmith
- 2x Kastelan Robots
- 1x Neutronager
- 1x Icarus Onager

Playing Maelstrom, on 4 terrain plates, got the "Seek & Destroy" deployment and he got first turn. He played something along these lines:

- Supreme Command with 3x Commanders, all Fusion
- Battalion with 1 Coldstar Commander, another regular Commander with full Burst Cannons, 3x 5 Strike Teams, 2 Marksmen
- Vanguard with 3x 3 Crisis, full Burst Cannons
And of course a little army of Combat Drones with each suit.

So pretty much a tourney list straight from the net, toned down a little. I tried infiltrating my Fulgurites near his deployment zone to put pressure on him but of course I lost first turn so they just got thrashed, all my Rangers and Vanguards were almost wiped save for the backline Arquebuses, two of my Dragoons got Fusionned to death and the last one tried a charge before going down in Overwatch.

My turn, I pop the Infiltrators behind the Coldstar Commander, whisper "Omae wa mou shindeiru" and kill him on the charge, tying up 3 Crisis in the same move and marking 6 points in a single turn with that move. I popped the Binharic Override on the Robots because hell was about to go down and killed some Drones and a Crisis if I remember well. My Neutronager was totally useless because with the way Saviour Protocols work, even if you do 6D it's only a single MW is traded for the regular Wound, so I was quite displeased that T'au players dare complain when half their army is untargetable Fusion-death-suits. Icarus did wonders however and really did some damage thanks to good rolls.

After that everything really goes downhill, I lose a Robot, a Dominus who failed his 6" charge, the rest of my infantry except for the Snipers who held on until the end, then I manage to kill another commander but it's not enough, he kills the rest of my artillery, the Infiltrators, I manage to glory shot another commander with the Ranger Alpha but that's all I can do now.

So my mistakes, first was to not ask him outright what kind of list he wanted us to play, even though I suspect I would've answer "a fun list" with his own idea of a fun list. Second was Infiltrating the Priests, this stuff never works, at least not on a table that small. Third was screening with the Dragoons, although with the range of the Fusion Blasters he would've killed them still. But even looking back, there was no way I wasn't getting shot to death before such shooting saturation. Not with this list.

It makes me bitter because although I didn't care for the rankings in my league, I probably dropped a lot of places while this guy was last. Also bitter to have faced a tourney list without warning of course.

 Aaranis wrote:
Playing Maelstrom, on 4 terrain plates, got the "Seek & Destroy" deployment and he got first turn. He played something along these lines:

- Supreme Command with 3x Commanders, all Fusion
- Battalion with 1 Coldstar Commander, another regular Commander with full Burst Cannons, 3x 5 Strike Teams, 2 Marksmen
- Vanguard with 3x 3 Crisis, full Burst Cannons
And of course a little army of Combat Drones with each suit.

Against this sort of Tau list, your best bet is to castle. That is, move your Kastelans into a good position, ball your models around them, and force them to come to you.

Don't worry about your Dragoons dying. In fact, I would make them a part of the wall. They have to come within 18" to shoot your Robots, which means you just move and charge them to death the next turn.

It's also yet another reason why I think we should always bring Icarus Crawlers. Neutron Crawlers are not useful in a meta with Dark Reapers. (Especially if you bring Earthshakers, which you should.)

Suzuteo wrote:
Against this sort of Tau list, your best bet is to castle. That is, move your Kastelans into a good position, ball your models around them, and force them to come to you.

Don't worry about your Dragoons dying. In fact, I would make them a part of the wall. They have to come within 18" to shoot your Robots, which means you just move and charge them to death the next turn.

It's also yet another reason why I think we should always bring Icarus Crawlers. Neutron Crawlers are not useful in a meta with Dark Reapers. (Especially if you bring Earthshakers, which you should.)

The thing is, I didn't know his list, and never faced that before. My Robots felt useless as each time I wanted to target a Commander (which were the main danger) there were two stupid drones in front of it that prevented targeting, and on first/second turn he killed all my infantry, which left me no regular cheap guns to shoot at the Drones to destroy the screen. So the Robots killed some Crisis, their Drones, and 2x5 Fire Warriors all in all.

I don't usually play competitive lists (so, Cawl + 4 bots minimum) unless we specifically agreed to with my opponent, because he wants to try a strong list of his. Otherwise I don't fancy sitting back on my deployment zone, as most of the time the objectives imply running around the board. I like gunlines, but not just that, I fancy jet pack infantry, bikes and the likes, which is why I always bring 3 Dragoons now (far too efficient) and why I'm going to try soon a 2000 pts list made of a Stygies VIII Bataillon and a Dark Angels Bataillon. Not pretending to be competitive but it should give me a breath of fresh air with my army.

Next time I face this T'au player I'm definitely using the meanest list I can build though.

 Aaranis wrote:
The thing is, I didn't know his list, and never faced that before. My Robots felt useless as each time I wanted to target a Commander (which were the main danger) there were two stupid drones in front of it that prevented targeting, and on first/second turn he killed all my infantry, which left me no regular cheap guns to shoot at the Drones to destroy the screen. So the Robots killed some Crisis, their Drones, and 2x5 Fire Warriors all in all.

I don't usually play competitive lists (so, Cawl + 4 bots minimum) unless we specifically agreed to with my opponent, because he wants to try a strong list of his. Otherwise I don't fancy sitting back on my deployment zone, as most of the time the objectives imply running around the board. I like gunlines, but not just that, I fancy jet pack infantry, bikes and the likes, which is why I always bring 3 Dragoons now (far too efficient) and why I'm going to try soon a 2000 pts list made of a Stygies VIII Bataillon and a Dark Angels Bataillon. Not pretending to be competitive but it should give me a breath of fresh air with my army.

Next time I face this T'au player I'm definitely using the meanest list I can build though.

Don't stay in your deployment against Tau. There's no way you are going to keep them out of attack range with how ridiculously mobile they are. There's also no way you are going to outplay them on the board. So your primary goal is actually to try to get as many objectives in that 36" bubble as you can and force them into a decisive shooting battle. This is the sort of confrontation where their mobility doesn't really make a difference. As long as you keep their suits from being able to CC the Robots and the dice aren't terrible, you will probably win it.

My list these days looks much the same as before, only I decided to commit to melee Scouts. (Waiting for the bits in the mail.) And my Cadian Spearhead is now a Custom MT Spearhead. So the army basically has many more fighting and close quarters shooting assets.

Has anyone had any joy with either Sicarian Infiltrators or Fulgurite Electro-Priests?

I would love a squad of 20 priests but imagine they get obliterated before they can see any action.

Ideasweasel wrote:
Has anyone had any joy with either Sicarian Infiltrators or Fulgurite Electro-Priests?

I would love a squad of 20 priests but imagine they get obliterated before they can see any action.

If you take Priests I would take them as Stygies for the infiltration. But it´s a huge gamble. If you get first turn then great, if not you are screwed. (You could infiltrate them out of LOS, but then you still need to get them into combat.
I haven´t tested Infiltrators very much tbh, but I am for some time toying with the idea of a 10 men mars squad, for some mortal wounds. Had anyone success using them in this way?

 lash92 wrote:

Ideasweasel wrote:
Has anyone had any joy with either Sicarian Infiltrators or Fulgurite Electro-Priests?

I would love a squad of 20 priests but imagine they get obliterated before they can see any action.

If you take Priests I would take them as Stygies for the infiltration. But it´s a huge gamble. If you get first turn then great, if not you are screwed. (You could infiltrate them out of LOS, but then you still need to get them into combat.
I haven´t tested Infiltrators very much tbh, but I am for some time toying with the idea of a 10 men mars squad, for some mortal wounds. Had anyone success using them in this way?

Nope. Aweful. Bang for Buck they suck. They can drop yes but thats it. Both shooting attacks are not great even if you use Wrath of Mars (since I doubt Cawl will be anywhere near) you are looking at roughly 6 mortal wounds. But you can kiss your Infiltrators goodbye as soon as the opponent looks at them. t3 with a 4+ save is just not worth it. I tested them a lot and they were never more than a dissapointment. And knowing that Tau is on their way makes them even less of a consideration.

Infiltrators...

If you want to chuck some Command Points at them, use protector doctrina and wrath of mars in the shooting phase, then if they make their 9" charge use conqueror doctrinas.

A block of 10 infiltrators will do 50 shots hitting on 2's. Ideally you have the reroll 1's canticle up as well but let's say you don't...

50 shots = 41.7 hits
S3 is the problem... so likely to need 5s or 6s to wound with an additional mortal wound on a 6. For a T6 or above target you're doing 6.9 wounds + 6.9 mortal wounds

They would be pretty damn good against Adeptus Custodes. Custodes are mostly T5 so wound on a 5 rather than a 6. Mortals to ignore their 2+/4++

Could kill a squad of custodes or a shield captain with reasonable rolls. Plus all the CPs in the world.

If you make the charge you can spend another CP (!) on conqueror doctrina so they are hitting on 2's and doing 3 hits on a 5 or 6.

Strength 6 but no AP is a bummer.

Then the next turn your opponent says "feth those guys in particular" and you realise they are T3.


You know, the alternate loadout is... Pistol 3 instead of Pistol 5... but S4 shots...

Attacking the same T6 target

30 shots hitting on 2's = 25 hits
wounding on 5's now = 8.33 wounds + 4.2 mortals.

Then in combat they are S4 AP-3

Worse, really... it's the inital blast of 7 or so mortal wounds you want.

 lash92 wrote:

Ideasweasel wrote:
Has anyone had any joy with either Sicarian Infiltrators or Fulgurite Electro-Priests?

I would love a squad of 20 priests but imagine they get obliterated before they can see any action.

If you take Priests I would take them as Stygies for the infiltration. But it´s a huge gamble. If you get first turn then great, if not you are screwed. (You could infiltrate them out of LOS, but then you still need to get them into combat.
I haven´t tested Infiltrators very much tbh, but I am for some time toying with the idea of a 10 men mars squad, for some mortal wounds. Had anyone success using them in this way?

Would Lucius not be better for guaranteed deep strike?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silentz wrote:
Infiltrators...

If you want to chuck some Command Points at them, use protector doctrina and wrath of mars in the shooting phase, then if they make their 9" charge use conqueror doctrinas.

A block of 10 infiltrators will do 50 shots hitting on 2's. Ideally you have the reroll 1's canticle up as well but let's say you don't...

50 shots = 41.7 hits
S3 is the problem... so likely to need 5s or 6s to wound with an additional mortal wound on a 6. For a T6 or above target you're doing 6.9 wounds + 6.9 mortal wounds

They would be pretty damn good against Adeptus Custodes. Custodes are mostly T5 so wound on a 5 rather than a 6. Mortals to ignore their 2+/4++

Could kill a squad of custodes or a shield captain with reasonable rolls. Plus all the CPs in the world.

If you make the charge you can spend another CP (!) on conqueror doctrina so they are hitting on 2's and doing 3 hits on a 5 or 6.

Strength 6 but no AP is a bummer.

Then the next turn your opponent says "feth those guys in particular" and you realise they are T3.


You know, the alternate loadout is... Pistol 3 instead of Pistol 5... but S4 shots...

Attacking the same T6 target

30 shots hitting on 2's = 25 hits
wounding on 5's now = 8.33 wounds + 4.2 mortals.

Then in combat they are S4 AP-3

Worse, really... it's the inital blast of 7 or so mortal wounds you want.

I just love the models. They look so cool. Shame they aren’t as good as they could be