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I don't even think you need to make it low CP. Red Corsairs can boost you up great and totally are a good spot for zerkers. Take 3 squads of CSM and either put a pair of them in rhino or hide them out of LoS to guard backfield objectives.

 lindsay40k wrote:


Warptime can’t be used on units on the turn they arrive. The ruling is buried in the Index: Chaos FAQ from a year ago, and the new Codex replicates the old wording of Warptime; I guess we’re going to see a fair number of new CSM collectors finding out their Terminators can’t teleport, move, flame, and charge.

Hope they collate & compile our Index & Codex (and, for that matter, Big) FAQs, because the amount of back-and-forth is getting beyond a joke now.

It's almost like GW should stop acting like it's 1985 and just make all the rules living documents in PDF format for free so they can fix and update rules without causing constant messes... And maybe avoid selling everyone a 2.0 codex that's supposed to help with that yet hilariously has incorrect points in it.

Danny slag wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:


Warptime can’t be used on units on the turn they arrive. The ruling is buried in the Index: Chaos FAQ from a year ago, and the new Codex replicates the old wording of Warptime; I guess we’re going to see a fair number of new CSM collectors finding out their Terminators can’t teleport, move, flame, and charge.

Hope they collate & compile our Index & Codex (and, for that matter, Big) FAQs, because the amount of back-and-forth is getting beyond a joke now.

It's almost like GW should stop acting like it's 1985 and just make all the rules living documents in PDF format for free so they can fix and update rules without causing constant messes... And maybe avoid selling everyone a 2.0 codex that's supposed to help with that yet hilariously has incorrect points in it.

No money in that, with the ca they basically they sell us allready a balance Patch and they will continue to do so.

Thanks for the replies guys, I'll head online and get the updated datasheets for the existing models and the new ones not included in Vigilus. If there's no points values then I guess I'll just get those models for free, muhahaha.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Raichase wrote:
Fellow apostles from the Word Bearers - our relic (Cursed Crozius) in the CSM codex states that it replaces the bearers power mail.

The new Dark Apostle datasheet in Vigilus Ablaze has him holding an "Accursed Crozius". The "Cursed Crozius" is still a slightly better weapon, and I'm assuming this will be FAQ'd, but I'm wondering if anyone with the Second Edition Chaos Codex can confirm if the wording for the Word Bearers relic is different?

Also, I can't find the Master of Possessions rules in Vigilus Ablaze... Everything else is there except him.

Thanks in advance!

To my knowledge your corzius now can indeed not be replaced by it anymore due to GW's wisdom.

HOLD EVERYTHING

DARK APOSTLES CAN (maybe) TAKE A POWER MAUL

Designers Commentary, Page 6 wrote:If your model has a Datasheet in a Codex, and.there are wargear options for your model that only appear in the Index version of its Datasheet, you can choose to use the Index version for its Wargear options

Technically, it’s not under the model’s Wargear Options box. But, gramatically, equipping them with a Power Maul is an option.

Yeah, but then it is missing out on legion traits, isn't it?

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Yeah, but then it is missing out on legion traits, isn't it?

The index version still has <Legion>, so it'll get traits.

Azuza001 wrote:

saint_red wrote:
What are our options against Flyer spam and -1 to hit lists? I feel like CSM is now in a very strong place but we still match up really poorly against the Eldar Flyer list or any other list that can kite and stay out of melee. While we do have access to decent shooting units, these units don't tend to stack up well against -1 to hit debuffs.

Some of the options I've thought about:
- Jump Lord with thunder hammer / relic
- Winged DPs
- Deredeo
- Hellforged Leviathan
- Hellforged Sicaran

Is there anything else I'm missing?

In my most recent game I used a WB Chaos Lord with The Cursed Crozius (although thunder hammer is probably better) and a Khorne Winged DP to good effect. My opponent was using a CHE and Hemlock and my flying duo managed to rip both of them out of the sky with a little assisstance and poor positioning by my opponent. However, I don't think my list has any answers to 3+ (or well positioned) flyers.

We have a few very good options to choose from, its all about figuring out how you want to to about doing it and what your running.

Besides what you have already said, here are a few other ideas.

If your playing black legion then havocs and abadon is an easy answer. The rules changes to abby now mean that you can reroll any dice you want qhen rolling for failed hits so those 3's and 4's that should hit but miss after modifiers can be rerolled. That helps give you some more reliable firepower.

Helldrakes are often laughed at but look at their cost with a bale flamer vs a hemlock. Now keep in mind the helldrake auto hits with the bale flamer and can charge the hemlock.


If anyone else has any ideas i would like to hear them as well.

Great point about the BL havocs, I'll have to mathhammer that when I get home. I don't play BL but for more competitive games I could chuck in a detachment.

I don't think the Helldrake is going to be more points efficient than the other options listed there but I'll investigate that too.

I think at the moment I might look at adding a Deredeo or just more DPs.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Raichase wrote:
Fellow apostles from the Word Bearers - our relic (Cursed Crozius) in the CSM codex states that it replaces the bearers power mail.

The new Dark Apostle datasheet in Vigilus Ablaze has him holding an "Accursed Crozius". The "Cursed Crozius" is still a slightly better weapon, and I'm assuming this will be FAQ'd, but I'm wondering if anyone with the Second Edition Chaos Codex can confirm if the wording for the Word Bearers relic is different?

Also, I can't find the Master of Possessions rules in Vigilus Ablaze... Everything else is there except him.

Thanks in advance!

To my knowledge your corzius now can indeed not be replaced by it anymore due to GW's wisdom.

HOLD EVERYTHING

DARK APOSTLES CAN (maybe) TAKE A POWER MAUL

Designers Commentary, Page 6 wrote:If your model has a Datasheet in a Codex, and.there are wargear options for your model that only appear in the Index version of its Datasheet, you can choose to use the Index version for its Wargear options

Technically, it’s not under the model’s Wargear Options box. But, gramatically, equipping them with a Power Maul is an option.

Aight except that you always need to pick the most update ruleset and secondly the DA never did have any upgrade options (beyond boltpistol into other pistols or Combiweapons) , so no, you can't get a power maul on a DA due to it simply not beeing a wargear option or him not having access even in the idex for the corect wargear options.

Which sucks for fluffy WB players, especially now that the DA is actually worth his points....

 lindsay40k wrote:


HOLD EVERYTHING

DARK APOSTLES CAN (maybe) TAKE A POWER MAUL

Designers Commentary, Page 6 wrote:If your model has a Datasheet in a Codex, and.there are wargear options for your model that only appear in the Index version of its Datasheet, you can choose to use the Index version for its Wargear options

Technically, it’s not under the model’s Wargear Options box. But, gramatically, equipping them with a Power Maul is an option.

Doesn't that mean you're actually using the old datasheet in its entirety? In other words, no new Apostle prayers, either?
Nevermind.

And if that would be the way then in ETC enviroment(so that's like 99% of tournaments in my country) you are out of that anyway.

tneva82 wrote:
And if that would be the way then in ETC enviroment(so that's like 99% of tournaments in my country) you are out of that anyway.

No index in ETC?

More specifically no flowchart in ETC I think. If you have no codex and your only options are index you are(almost certainly though don't quote me on that) fine.

If you have codex though then any options not covered by that but covered by index are out. So no regular big mek with KFF or warboss with mega armour for orks, for eldars no autarch with missile launcher(I think that was the index option for eldar) etc.

So going back to an earlier conversation on this thread, it seems like the thinking is it is better to spread the chain-guns around in CSM squads, rather than use 4 in a havoc squad? I can see reasons for using both tactics.

 xeen wrote:
So going back to an earlier conversation on this thread, it seems like the thinking is it is better to spread the chain-guns around in CSM squads, rather than use 4 in a havoc squad? I can see reasons for using both tactics.

I mean a big issue with havoc squads is just the fact that losing wounds on the unit quickly means losing guns, while this isnt the case with the CSM squads. But that being said, havocs being able to move and shoot makes a big difference. I don't think its mutually exclusive, both options are good as long as you are getting chaincannons somewhere in your life

The advantage of CSM squads is that they're Troops as well, so you can have your CP battery dudes actually contribute something other than sitting around.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The advantage of CSM squads is that they're Troops as well, so you can have your CP battery dudes actually contribute something other than sitting around.

I'm planning on testing this heavily. Using them in a devastation battery is part of my plan as an early chaff-clear. The idea is to have so many other scary units to shoot at that they might get passed over. I mean, they're -just- havocs.....

So it is a bit more off-topic from marines specifically, but has anyone given much thought to, of all things, ogryn mutant hound packs?

Like, okay, renegades and heretics garbage generally but....the doggies are 2 wound S 5 T 5 2 attack models for 10 points. Realistically they are probably going to have +1 strength from the khorne covenant, +1 to hit from the goad and +1 attacks from charging.

So in reality, they are S 6 T 5 2W 3A 3+ WS models for 10 points a pop...or without the khorne covenant, which has some strings, still S5. That seems dare I say...pretty good?

The big thing though is that they can be stuffed in a valk with a max unit of 9+the ogryn and first turn charge with no effort. Grav chute into 9 inches, move 6, easy charge. It will eat a guard squad then probably consolidate into another guard squad or a nearby vehicle. It's like, 230~250 or so including the valk? I mean, the enemy has to kill it then, and also the valk (which itself could easily clear out sommore screens and then first turn charge if put in hover).

That seems like a lot of disruption for the price tag.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The advantage of CSM squads is that they're Troops as well, so you can have your CP battery dudes actually contribute something other than sitting around.

Even more than that, it's about the efficiency of the weapon. Bolter marines don't do much for their point. The Chain Cannon does SO MUCH for its points that it makes up for the rest of the squad doing so little. No other heavy weapon will. Other heavy weapons can be decent on havocs because 4/5 of the squad gets them. Autocannons and Lascannons do okay for their points (stay away from missile launchers and heavy bolters), especially with move+shoot and t5 for only 1pt. 5 guys with 4 autocannons is a decent squad. 5 guy with 1 autocannon are irrelevant. That's why CSM need the Chain Cannon.

drakerocket wrote:
So it is a bit more off-topic from marines specifically, but has anyone given much thought to, of all things, ogryn mutant hound packs?

Like, okay, renegades and heretics garbage generally but....the doggies are 2 wound S 5 T 5 2 attack models for 10 points. Realistically they are probably going to have +1 strength from the khorne covenant, +1 to hit from the goad and +1 attacks from charging.

So in reality, they are S 6 T 5 2W 3A 3+ WS models for 10 points a pop...or without the khorne covenant, which has some strings, still S5. That seems dare I say...pretty good?

The big thing though is that they can be stuffed in a valk with a max unit of 9+the ogryn and first turn charge with no effort. Grav chute into 9 inches, move 6, easy charge. It will eat a guard squad then probably consolidate into another guard squad or a nearby vehicle. It's like, 230~250 or so including the valk? I mean, the enemy has to kill it then, and also the valk (which itself could easily clear out sommore screens and then first turn charge if put in hover).

That seems like a lot of disruption for the price tag.

yeah, until you realize that the average ogryn berzerker squad is just way better. You will also waste a Warlord trait on a 25pts commander to get the Covenant.
Also there is a renegades tactica.

The covenant isn't really needed.

I'm not sure I've ever seen rules for ogryn berzerkers. Where are they located? They aren't in battlescribe or the tactica....

drakerocket wrote:
The covenant isn't really needed.

I'm not sure I've ever seen rules for ogryn berzerkers. Where are they located?

Right under,
You get 2 brutes allready for a min mauler pack, but get more strentgh more damage more combat stimms and access to the most broken weapons in the renegades arsenal, the power drill on the berzerkerboss:
S 10 ap-3 Dd3 with 5-8 attacks.


Edit: just realized that you don't have the rules and are using Battlescribe.
Makes sense disregard my statement where to find them.

Ah right! My mistake, I'd forgotten that berserker is the name of the ogryn leader option and not a different unit in and of themselves. I do have the rules, just on my tablet and not my phone >.>

I do agree that they are quite strong. Certainly much better against multi-wound or vehicles. A bit of a wash against 1 wound models vs the hounds (maybe 15-20% better) and certainly fewer wounds (half). The bodies also allow for a broader range of melee shenanigans.

I think I'd favor the hounds for disruption and the ogryn for wrecking big targets.

Still though, I'm surprised you don't see them occasionally. They seems solidly good.

drakerocket wrote:
Ah right! My mistake, I'd forgotten that berserker is the name of the ogryn leader option and not a different unit in and of themselves. I do have the rules, just on my tablet and not my phone >.>

I do agree that they are quite strong. Certainly much better against multi-wound or vehicles. A bit of a wash against 1 wound models vs the hounds (maybe 15-20% better) and certainly fewer wounds (half). The bodies also allow for a broader range of melee shenanigans.

I think I'd favor the hounds for disruption and the ogryn for wrecking big targets.

Still though, I'm surprised you don't see them occasionally. They seems solidly good.

Basically the ogryn dart (any variation) is about the best thing beyond the marauder squads in the list.
If you face any R&H army you will see Marauders and or Ogryns, mostlikely a big ammount of these and disciples of any flavour because Renegades and Heretics can't use CP so no reason not to Spam your elite troops since they are actually usefull.

Okay, I was wondering about cultists as people seem to suggest apart from red corstair battalion, they are the bets troop unit for chaos, but I cannot really see the point in them as they lack the ability to actually kill anything in combat or with shooting and they die in easy droves with the rest running away. so how are they supposed to be used???

froper98 wrote:
Okay, I was wondering about cultists as people seem to suggest apart from red corstair battalion, they are the bets troop unit for chaos, but I cannot really see the point in them as they lack the ability to actually kill anything in combat or with shooting and they die in easy droves with the rest running away. so how are they supposed to be used???

10 cultists cost 50 pts can sit on a objective just aswell and have more W. Also min cp tax.
30 cultists can be recycled and moved forwards.

Csm suffer from beeing Sm profile bodies and even with the reaper chaincannon beyond RC terrible at generating cp compared to the cheaper option.

froper98 wrote:
Okay, I was wondering about cultists as people seem to suggest apart from red corstair battalion, they are the bets troop unit for chaos, but I cannot really see the point in them as they lack the ability to actually kill anything in combat or with shooting and they die in easy droves with the rest running away. so how are they supposed to be used???

They take up more space, which if your opponent has a nasty deep strike unit can buy you a turn. They were a lot better when they cost 4pts, it has to be said, but they’re still 15pts cheaper than a minimum Heretac squad.

 lindsay40k wrote:

froper98 wrote:
Okay, I was wondering about cultists as people seem to suggest apart from red corstair battalion, they are the bets troop unit for chaos, but I cannot really see the point in them as they lack the ability to actually kill anything in combat or with shooting and they die in easy droves with the rest running away. so how are they supposed to be used???

They take up more space, which if your opponent has a nasty deep strike unit can buy you a turn. They were a lot better when they cost 4pts, it has to be said, but they’re still 15pts cheaper than a minimum Heretac squad.

Honestly atm the min CSM squad is always nearly carrying a Reaper chaincannon to get it'spts back somewhat and as deterrence.

Stepping into heresy after being a long time IG player. I am really struggling with getting a list i like together. Have not play tested this, working on getting everything painted before it sees the tabletop.

My goal is to go for a minimalist model count army with some real smashy characters and big threats. Trying to stay away from dedicated gunline and have more versatility in the army. I want to stay BL for a consistent paint scheme through the whole army.

2k
10 CP after spending 4

Battalion
BL

CL with jumpack - WL, bolt pistol, chainsword, ghorisvexs teeth, flames of spite. MoS
Sorcerer with jumppack-Death hex, warptime, MoT

Csm - chaincannon
Csm - AC
Csm - 3x bolt pistol/chainsword, PG, PG/chainaxe champion

Terminators - chainfist/combiplasma champ, chainaxe/combibolter, powermaul/combibolter, LC/combibolter, reaper AC/power axe

Battalion
BL
Soulforge pack

DP - MoS, malefic talons, intoxicating elixir, prescience
LoD - AC, field commander master of soulforges, MoS

Cultist - 10
Cultist - 10
Csm - chaincannon

Great possessed - MoS

Venomcrawler - MoS
Venomcrawler - MoS

Spearhead
BL
Devastation battery

Cl with jumppack - thunderhammer, plasma pistol, MoK

Havoc - 4x LC, MoS
Havoc - 4x chaincannon, MoS
Obliterator - MoS

So, I've always been a fan of armor, so I decided to look over some of the FW options a little harder.

I must say I don't hate the Sicaran Venator with lascannons. But with a 3+, no applicable stratagems, and 14 wounds, is it viable for all the damage it could put out?

The other one I noticed is the Spartan Assault Tank. That's a lot of potential lascannon shots, and that thing can deliver an awful lot of chaincannons fairly safely. I'm sorely tempted.