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While these point changes are certainly a nerf, especially to melee orks, I think there are some interesting possibilities and twists that can be implemented.

1) MANZ with Hit Em Harder is a necessity to justify their inclusion. But this also means that you'll rarely want to bring more than one unit. To maximise CP I've found that two detachments hit a sweet spot. That other trukkboy specialist mob I feel is used by a 10 dual choppa Nobz. 60 S5 AP1 attacks turns to on average in 6.5 unsaved wounds on a redemptor, 8.8888 unsaved wounds on termies or vanguard vets, and absolutely shreds any hordes. Compared to 5 trukkMANZ with Hit Em Harder popped that does 10-12 wounds to a redemptor, 5-6 dead termies, 4 dead VV, and is worse against hordes. Costwise that's 180 points to the Nobz vs. 150 points with new MANz, so a good alternative if you are trying to use both offensively the same turn. I tend to not rely much on the durability of either unit, everything is so lethal that I expect even the MANZ to be dead the turn after it charges.

2) Despite what some people have said I think Killa Kanz with skorchas are deadly if used right. They are better than any other unit in the telly porta because they are deadly, slow, and can have ramming speed applied to them. For 160 points you get 4d6 S5 AP1 flamer shots, 20 WS4+ S8 AP3 3D attacks, essentially cheaper flamer meganobz. Again I expect them to die next turn, but if you DS them on the flanks there is a decent chance 1 or 2 will survive as the opponent has to bring their big firepower down the middle on the Kill Rigs / Hunta Rigs.

3) Speaking of Hunta Rigs, I am now hot on the beastboss on foot, I've always had trouble getting the beastboss on squig where he needed to be, thankfully with a 30 point increase I now have a reason not to bring him. The Beastboss's main weapon is better, he still hits on 2s due to his aura, and he can sit in a hunta rig with the lads. I am bringing 1 Kill Rig and 1 Hunta Rig, because that advance and charge on at least 1 of them for the character key word is too enticing.

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Danmark

the fact MANZ are dead the next turn is the reason they definitely dont deserve to cost anything more than 30 ppm standard. Its the cost they should have always had.

Other terminators arent expected to die when they arrive. Ours are.

its kind of annoying that hit em harder cost 2CP now, its definitely an unecessary nerf that might have something to do with why they are taken less now than before. Its too CP taxing to deal their maximum damage.

But if they cost 30 ppm in the future it might help them out a bit.

I dont hope the boss on squig will get a point increase, because he really dont do anything except hit things hard. Unlike other characters in the game he doesnt really do any buffing or throws out anything interesting in the command phase. just the lazy +1 to hit basically everyone and their grandmother already gives. He also doesnt have a shooting weapon even worth mentioning, so hes all melee and thats that.

I dont think Mozrog should be in that price range either. Not unless he could actually buff snakebites which he doesnt properly. And snakebites is already rather mediocre.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2022/01/17 20:30:49


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Western Kentucky

When did hit em harder go to 2cp? I had no idea that had changed and was still paying 1 cp

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Prague

Codex…

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Danmark

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
When did hit em harder go to 2cp? I had no idea that had changed and was still paying 1 cp


dont you read the new stratagems when we get a new codex?

Just in case you were unaware, Da jump is also Clan limited now.

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

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Italy

Beardedragon wrote:

Other terminators arent expected to die when they arrive. Ours are.



I disagree with that. Regular termies aren't really more durable than meganobz. 5++ means nothing unless being hit by AP-4 weapons and meganobz shouldn't be targeted by such weapons. Against anything else they'd roll 5+ or 4+ saves, exactly like SM ones. Meganobz should simply have redundancy. If they draw away fire from the buggies, koptas, bikes, planes of other similar stuff good, that's how an army is supposed to work.

Regular terminators also don't have re-rolls on the charges which might leave them exposed more easily. Built in deepstrike but also no fast vehicles to be delivered, and it's much easier to screen against deepstrikers and force them to appear in a not very juicy spot than blocking movement from a very fast transport. I also play SW and my termies are much worse compared to meganobz, even with built in +1 to hit in melee on top of other marines buffs.

There isn't a significant difference from 35ppm to 30ppm, it's 25 points for a 5 man squad. I'll take it but I was playing meganobz quite frequently anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Big Mek Sparknutz wrote:


2) Despite what some people have said I think Killa Kanz with skorchas are deadly if used right. They are better than any other unit in the telly porta because they are deadly, slow, and can have ramming speed applied to them. For 160 points you get 4d6 S5 AP1 flamer shots, 20 WS4+ S8 AP3 3D attacks, essentially cheaper flamer meganobz. Again I expect them to die next turn, but if you DS them on the flanks there is a decent chance 1 or 2 will survive as the opponent has to bring their big firepower down the middle on the Kill Rigs / Hunta Rigs.



Killa Kanz are IMHO a legit unit in 3 man squads. I play them sometimes and I found that all three loadouts can be justified. Skorchas might look the best option but they need deepstrike (so 2CP) to do something in the shooting phase, while rokkits are good but a bit expensive. Big shootas aren't good but cheap, with long range and with AP-1 for a couple of turns they're not really that bad compared to skorchas.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/18 07:40:19


 
   
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Prague

Maybe, you should define “regular termie” first.

You mean bare naked datasheet? Or what you face regularly on the table? That is very different, because what you face is usualy something like 2+/4++ +1 to save 5+++ and 15 pushups as penalty for the attacker for every killed model. The point of your discussion is maybe in the ork (in)ability to boost MANs.

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 Tomsug wrote:
Maybe, you should define “regular termie” first.

You mean bare naked datasheet? Or what you face regularly on the table? That is very different, because what you face is usualy something like 2+/4++ +1 to save 5+++ and 15 pushups as penalty for the attacker for every killed model. The point of your discussion is maybe in the ork (in)ability to boost MANs.


I mean standard ones, like terminators from the SM codex, SM supplements and Chaos Space Marines codex (although this one is pretty old). Those who cost 35ish points per model or less.

Deathshroud aren't regular termies for example, at 50ppm they cost as much as light vehicles like rokkit killa kanz or deffkoptas. Psyker ones aren't regular termies either. How many SM terminators do we see these days? I mean in SM or Chaos Space Marines codex armies. Definitely less than meganobz. The only termies/equivalents we really see more than meganobz are a few bespoke units, with tons of faction related buffs on top of the typical statelines and additional rules, they're also quite more expensive that other termies and their counterparts from other factions.

Since Meganobz works without layers of buffs they are appropriate at 30-35ppm. If you want them to be in line with the best terminator equivalents in the game they'd also need a significant price hike. Compared to all the other termies that don't rely on multiple powerful stuff they do pretty good. SW ones for example have tons of layers of rules, including a quite powerful +1 to hit in melee, but we really never see them though even in casual games, and for a good reason.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/18 09:15:11


 
   
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Prague

CA22 full secondaries liek (or should be).

Shortly - nothing significant new or not expected. I have to think about it, but I don' t see any significant impact on Speed Mob list. Secondaries still sucks.

However, if you play the lists with the infantry, there are 2 types of important changes:

1. Minimu of “3 models per unit to score” limit. Say goodbey to 1 model for 40p teleporting around.

2. Easier to pass some secondaries for Troops

https://imgur.com/a/M84IP1M


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
 Tomsug wrote:
Maybe, you should define “regular termie” first.

You mean bare naked datasheet? Or what you face regularly on the table? That is very different, because what you face is usualy something like 2+/4++ +1 to save 5+++ and 15 pushups as penalty for the attacker for every killed model. The point of your discussion is maybe in the ork (in)ability to boost MANs.


I mean standard ones, like terminators from the SM codex, SM supplements and Chaos Space Marines codex (although this one is pretty old). Those who cost 35ish points per model or less.

Deathshroud aren't regular termies for example, at 50ppm they cost as much as light vehicles like rokkit killa kanz or deffkoptas. Psyker ones aren't regular termies either. How many SM terminators do we see these days? In mean in SM or Chaos Space Marines armies. Definitely less than meganobz. The only termies/equivalents we really see more than meganobz are a few bespoke units, with tons of faction related buffs on top of the typical statelines and additional rules, they're also quite more expensive that other termies and their counterparts from other factions.



Ok, but honestly, I haven' t seen such units for… ages? Like my MANs on the table I guess…

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/18 09:14:53


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Hey guys, does this rules part mean I can use the Bomb Squig in my commandos if I advance or do I still need a shoota in that unit for that. (To make them an eligible unit for shooting due to the rules for assault weapons.)

While that part of rare rules speaks of "abilities used instead of shooting", the Bomb Squig rules say it can be used "when a unit is selected to shoot".
So theoretically it seems to be the same but the wording isn't a 100% clear case as it does not speak of releasing Bomb squigs being an ability used instead of shooting.


Because I'm building the last commandos to max them out right know and I want to know if I need those 3 shootas or not.
   
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 Tomsug wrote:
CA22 full secondaries liek (or should be).

Shortly - nothing significant new or not expected. I have to think about it, but I don' t see any significant impact on Speed Mob list. Secondaries still sucks.

However, if you play the lists with the infantry, there are 2 types of important changes:

1. Minimu of “3 models per unit to score” limit. Say goodbey to 1 model for 40p teleporting around.

2. Easier to pass some secondaries for Troops

https://imgur.com/a/M84IP1M


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
 Tomsug wrote:
Maybe, you should define “regular termie” first.

You mean bare naked datasheet? Or what you face regularly on the table? That is very different, because what you face is usualy something like 2+/4++ +1 to save 5+++ and 15 pushups as penalty for the attacker for every killed model. The point of your discussion is maybe in the ork (in)ability to boost MANs.


I mean standard ones, like terminators from the SM codex, SM supplements and Chaos Space Marines codex (although this one is pretty old). Those who cost 35ish points per model or less.

Deathshroud aren't regular termies for example, at 50ppm they cost as much as light vehicles like rokkit killa kanz or deffkoptas. Psyker ones aren't regular termies either. How many SM terminators do we see these days? In mean in SM or Chaos Space Marines armies. Definitely less than meganobz. The only termies/equivalents we really see more than meganobz are a few bespoke units, with tons of faction related buffs on top of the typical statelines and additional rules, they're also quite more expensive that other termies and their counterparts from other factions.



Ok, but honestly, I haven' t seen such units for… ages? Like my MANs on the table I guess…

For speed mob specifically
Engage was nerfed to require 3+ models—- making 3x bikes the bare minimum to trigger it

“Retrieve nachmund data” and “deploy teleport homer” are both doable by bikers and both benefit from being able to advance and still able to activate.

Honestly the only thing that can truly help orks speedmob competitively is if kannonwagons gain wagon Keyword and nob bikers gain (big red button, core, cloud of smoke, and +1 wound like they should have)
   
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A unit is not not eligible to shoot after advancing unless it has at least one assault weapon.

Shootas are dakka weapons, the only assault weapon available to kommadoz is the burna.

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Prague

gungo wrote:

For speed mob specifically
Engage was nerfed to require 3+ models—- making 3x bikes the bare minimum to trigger it

“Retrieve nachmund data” and “deploy teleport homer” are both doable by bikers and both benefit from being able to advance and still able to activate.

Honestly the only thing that can truly help orks speedmob competitively is if kannonwagons gain wagon Keyword and nob bikers gain (big red button, core, cloud of smoke, and +1 wound like they should have)

Yeah, Engage nerfed! You are right. But I didn' t play it even before.

Retrieve Data - well, just one unit per turn. Minimum is squad of 3 bikers. So you have 50% chance to pass. You have max 5 turns. So in average 2,5 datas retrieved. That is 4VP “for sure” or 8VP “with luck”. This is really bad. Can I use Command reroll on this at least?

Teleport Homers - that is an option, but same like before. And same problem. God Bitz are in the same category and in most of the missions better than Homers. At least, you can do them multiple times in single turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think we' re fine. 62% win rate from the last week on reddit metawatch and nobody screams about orks. We' ve get under the radar. That is good.

I haven' t seen all the lists, but it smells like a Speed Mob Kopta spam on a rise…

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/s62ko8/meta_monday_11722/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/18 11:55:15


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People are already whining about nerfing koptas

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 Blackie wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:

Other terminators arent expected to die when they arrive. Ours are.



I disagree with that. Regular termies aren't really more durable than meganobz. 5++ means nothing unless being hit by AP-4 weapons and meganobz shouldn't be targeted by such weapons. Against anything else they'd roll 5+ or 4+ saves, exactly like SM ones. Meganobz should simply have redundancy. If they draw away fire from the buggies, koptas, bikes, planes of other similar stuff good, that's how an army is supposed to work.

Regular terminators also don't have re-rolls on the charges which might leave them exposed more easily. Built in deepstrike but also no fast vehicles to be delivered, and it's much easier to screen against deepstrikers and force them to appear in a not very juicy spot than blocking movement from a very fast transport. I also play SW and my termies are much worse compared to meganobz, even with built in +1 to hit in melee on top of other marines buffs.

There isn't a significant difference from 35ppm to 30ppm, it's 25 points for a 5 man squad. I'll take it but I was playing meganobz quite frequently anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Big Mek Sparknutz wrote:


2) Despite what some people have said I think Killa Kanz with skorchas are deadly if used right. They are better than any other unit in the telly porta because they are deadly, slow, and can have ramming speed applied to them. For 160 points you get 4d6 S5 AP1 flamer shots, 20 WS4+ S8 AP3 3D attacks, essentially cheaper flamer meganobz. Again I expect them to die next turn, but if you DS them on the flanks there is a decent chance 1 or 2 will survive as the opponent has to bring their big firepower down the middle on the Kill Rigs / Hunta Rigs.



Killa Kanz are IMHO a legit unit in 3 man squads. I play them sometimes and I found that all three loadouts can be justified. Skorchas might look the best option but they need deepstrike (so 2CP) to do something in the shooting phase, while rokkits are good but a bit expensive. Big shootas aren't good but cheap, with long range and with AP-1 for a couple of turns they're not really that bad compared to skorchas.



The problem is we are talking about competitive builds not whatever builds. Nobody is bringing bare bones, vanilla terminators. What they are bringing is death shrouds and the DA version and a couple of other specialty builds, usually they are rocking a 4++ save with +1 armor or similar durability boost, usually they are so expensive that their owner has no problem popping transhuman on them or in the case of the DA ones, they get it natively baked into their stat sheet. Are those versions more expensive? absolutely, but they serve their purpose wonderfully. A unit of 5 Deathwing terminators hanging out in cover on an objective are Armor 0, you need not 1, not 2 but 3AP just to get them to a 3+ armor save. They can't be wounded except on a 4+ and if you get close enough to start inflicting dmg in CC and to take an objective from them, they are dangerous as all hell, WS2 with 2 different weapon options that make them good against hordes and good against elites.

Compare them to Meganobz. Meganob is 35ppm right now, lets use the possible 30pts, a Deathwing knight is 47. A full unit is basically 240pts because you almost always take the watcher. so 48pts. For 240pts you could take 8 Meganobz.

8 Meganobz get 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds (only wound on 4s) and against Storm shields they get 4+ saves for 3 failed saves which results in 1 dead Knight and 1 wounded knight.
Knights swing. 16 attacks, 13.3 hits, wounds on 3s so 8.8 wounds at -3AP so almost exactly 6 go through for 12dmg, dmg spills over thanks to weapon so that is 4 dead Meganobz.

Yes, Meganobz are garbage, and against their competitive terminator cousins they just do not compare. So dropping them down to 30pts is a step in the right direction, but it does not address their fundamental problem which is they serve no purpose. Are they extremely durable objective holders? No. Are they super elite killing machines? No. Are they cheap enough that you can just chuck wave after wave of them at a target and beat it down? No.

Meganobz need a dmg increase rather than a points drop.

A regular Nob is over priced at 18ppm, and by a large margin, but what does the meganob get over the nob for possibly 12ppm more? 1 more wound, +2 armor, a PK and a useless kustom shoota. Honestly, Nobz should be about 12ppm to be competitive, and Meganobz if they don't receive a hefty buff in durability/dmg should be closer to 20-24. The PK is over priced at 10ppm, the Kommandos have it right, its a 5pt upgrade at best since it gives the user -1 to hit. +2 armor is good but not great, especially in a game where melta/plasma and Tau exist

 Jidmah wrote:
A unit is not not eligible to shoot after advancing unless it has at least one assault weapon.

Shootas are dakka weapons, the only assault weapon available to kommadoz is the burna.


Going to have to disagree. The rare rule says it allows units without guns to shoot and it allows them to do so after advancing. So a unit without guns by default does not have an assault weapon and therefore by your logic wouldn't be eligible to be chosen to shoot, but that rules allows them to use an ability AKA the Bomb squig. Its going to be a rare scenario where it happens but I don't think its illegal to use a bomb squig after advancing since its not a ranged weapon, rather an ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Killakanz. No, they are still hot garbage and for the same reasons as the meganobz...in fact they are incredibly similar now.

Neither knows what it wants to be doing, neither are overly durable, neither are really good at CC, and the kanz are slightly worse at CC but better at ranged combat. Kanz worry more about Morale, but the thing that really kills them for me is their weapon loadouts/dmg output.

A kan is getting 4 attacks at WS4 in CC which is great for them, the problem is they are M6 and require teleporta strike to get in range relatively intact, because mork knows you don't want them foot sloggin since they have LD6.

Ranged combat wise though...I'm sorry, but at no point is 3 big shootas for 120pts worth it. Yup, let that sing in, GW has decided that because a Kan is just so amazing it requires a price tag of 120pts for 3, or possibly soon to be 105pts. And their basic weapon load at that value is a single Big shoota at BS4. At half range you get 15 shots, 7.5 hits, Against T4 its 5 wounds and against a 3+ that is 1.6dmg, for those 2 turns during a speedwaaagh it gets bumped to a mind altering, OP level of...2.5dmg. You could spend the entire game plinking away at half range and you wouldn't make your points back . The rokkitz are the only good "Ranged" option and because someone at GW has PTSD from Kan wall back in 4th (or 5th) they are 15ppm instead of 10 like everyone else pays. So now those 105pts of Kanz are 150 for 3 rokkitz. I honestly don't think Tankbustas are good right now, but for 150pts they get 9 Rokkitz which even at BS5 are significantly better (still garbage in my opinion)

The competitive option I would assume would then be the relatively cheap Skorcha which is a 5ppm upgrade which puts the unit of 3 back to 120pts for 3D6 S5 AP-1 auto-hits. Works out to 10.5 hits, against T4 and 3+ armor that becomes 3.5dmg. You could just take as useless meganobz and for 120pts do the exact same thing, or if its a beta strike skorcha threat, you could just use Burna's which for the same price, and with the Pyromaniacs upgrade put out 36 S4 no AP shots which against that same target works out to 6 dmg, and you still have 2 confused spanners with KMBs hanging out looking for targets of opportunity, against those same T4 3+ they themselves do another 3ish dmg on average.

All of that is to say that there really isn't a scenario where Kanz or meganobz accomplish a task that can't be done cheaper/better by another unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/18 13:34:27


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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 Tomsug wrote:
gungo wrote:

For speed mob specifically
Engage was nerfed to require 3+ models—- making 3x bikes the bare minimum to trigger it

“Retrieve nachmund data” and “deploy teleport homer” are both doable by bikers and both benefit from being able to advance and still able to activate.

Honestly the only thing that can truly help orks speedmob competitively is if kannonwagons gain wagon Keyword and nob bikers gain (big red button, core, cloud of smoke, and +1 wound like they should have)

Yeah, Engage nerfed! You are right. But I didn' t play it even before.

Retrieve Data - well, just one unit per turn. Minimum is squad of 3 bikers. So you have 50% chance to pass. You have max 5 turns. So in average 2,5 datas retrieved. That is 4VP “for sure” or 8VP “with luck”. This is really bad. Can I use Command reroll on this at least?

Teleport Homers - that is an option, but same like before. And same problem. God Bitz are in the same category and in most of the missions better than Homers. At least, you can do them multiple times in single turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think we' re fine. 62% win rate from the last week on reddit metawatch and nobody screams about orks. We' ve get under the radar. That is good.

I haven' t seen all the lists, but it smells like a Speed Mob Kopta spam on a rise…

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/s62ko8/meta_monday_11722/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Agree I wouldn’t attempt RND unless you are running 3x 5 warbikers or more…. It’s easy to get in range but it requires a roll 5 or below each turn…

You can’t just look at last weeks win rates… we had 45% win rate the week before.. and as jidmah said for whatever reason the ork hate is huge people are already crying about how deffkoptas and wazbom need a nerf too… unless there is some better changes for us we will be at best a low A high B tier army..it makes no sense why they keep nerfing orks who have a 9th Ed codex 55% win rate….
   
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Italy

SemperMortis wrote:


Yes, Meganobz are garbage, and against their competitive terminator cousins they just do not compare. So dropping them down to 30pts is a step in the right direction, but it does not address their fundamental problem which is they serve no purpose. Are they extremely durable objective holders? No. Are they super elite killing machines? No. Are they cheap enough that you can just chuck wave after wave of them at a target and beat it down? No.

Meganobz need a dmg increase rather than a points drop.


Maybe we disagree about how meganobz should be designed. I for example would certainly prefer 50ppm meganobz which are approx as good as deathshrouds, instead of 30ppm ones with current stats or with a minor buff in damage output. At the moment with the current stats and points cost they compete with something like Bladeguard Veterans, certainly not the much more powerful and expensive Deathshroud termies. Current design for meganobz is being a cheap generalist heavy armored infantry unit, they're not bad for that role, they're just as durable and as powerful as a 30-35ppm model should be.

SemperMortis wrote:


Ranged combat wise though...I'm sorry, but at no point is 3 big shootas for 120pts worth it.


Points costs should reflect all the model's stats and abilities, not only the shooting phase. It's a WS4+ BS4+ T5 W5 3+ model with 3 S8 AP-3 D3 attacks. Not just a guy with a big shoota. Something like that can't really be cheaper than 35-40 points. Maybe it's those units that can accomplish the same tasks but cheaper/better that need some price hikes, sometimes even significant ones, and I'm not just talking about orks.

And to be honest we already had top placings with meganobz and kanz without the upcoming points drops.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/18 14:18:27


 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
People are already whining about nerfing koptas


Yup, that discussion about the lack of satisfaction of us not getting MORE price bumps for guys like deffkoptas in the news and rumour thread was definitely eye-opening. Gork forbid we have semi-functional units. No, Ork units must not only be fragile and inaccurate, we must be overpriced as well! It's not like a huge part of our army identity is target saturation or anything...

Seriously, I wish these whiners would try playing Orks and see how non-functional a combined arms approach is for our army compared to other factions. You can't just pick and choose units and hope things go well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/18 14:24:24


 
   
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Custodes... a few rounds with the new codex and between being able to subtract an attack for a turn, their transhuman strat, limited distance to pile in etc. they have a lot of tools against orks this is going to take some work to adjust to in a take all comers list. Also the ignore -1Ap chapter is... rough

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 Blackie wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:


Yes, Meganobz are garbage, and against their competitive terminator cousins they just do not compare. So dropping them down to 30pts is a step in the right direction, but it does not address their fundamental problem which is they serve no purpose. Are they extremely durable objective holders? No. Are they super elite killing machines? No. Are they cheap enough that you can just chuck wave after wave of them at a target and beat it down? No.

Meganobz need a dmg increase rather than a points drop.


Maybe we disagree about how meganobz should be designed. I for example would certainly prefer 50ppm meganobz which are approx as good as deathshrouds, instead of 30ppm ones with current stats or with a minor buff in damage output. At the moment with the current stats and points cost they compete with something like Bladeguard Veterans, certainly not the much more powerful and expensive Deathshroud termies. Current design for meganobz is being a cheap generalist heavy armored infantry unit, they're not bad for that role, they're just as durable and as powerful as a 30-35ppm model should be.


That just isn't true though Blackie. A bladeguard veteran is Faster, same WS, +2BS, -1 Strength, -1Toughness, same W, more attacks technically, better leadership and -1 armor...kind of. Because All Bladeguard come standard with a Stormshield which gives them 2+ armor and a 4+ invuln. They are 35pts right now, so the same as Meganobz, They all get 3 attacks base, but +1 on the first round of combat and their sgt actually gets +1 attacks. They swing at S5 AP-3 2dmg, so a poor mans Powerfist, but they don't have -1 to hit. Against a unit of Marines, 3 blade guard get 13 attacks, 8.6 hits, 5.7 wounds and against 3+ thats 4.8 unsaved wounds or just shy of 5 dead Marines. Meganobz get 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3.7 wounds and 3.1 dead Marines. Against Chaff the bladeguard are still better. Against vehicles? 3 blade guard do 4.8dmg 3 meganobz do 5. So dmg wise a bladeguard veteran is better in most circumstances or just slightly worse against T6-8 vehicles. They are MORE durable because they have a 4+ invuln and again, easy access to transhuman unless they are DA in which case they get it stock. So I don't think a meganob is a good "Generalist heavy armored infantry unit" and its not "as durable and as powerful as a 30-35ppm model should be". I'd rather they get a durability/dmg buff then a points decrease.

 Blackie wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


Ranged combat wise though...I'm sorry, but at no point is 3 big shootas for 120pts worth it.


Points costs should reflect all the model's stats and abilities, not only the shooting phase. It's a WS4+ BS4+ T5 W5 3+ model with 3 S8 AP-3 D3 attacks. Not just a guy with a big shoota. Something like that can't really be cheaper than 35-40 points. Maybe it's those units that can accomplish the same tasks but cheaper/better that need some price hikes, sometimes even significant ones, and I'm not just talking about orks.

And to be honest we already had top placings with meganobz and kanz without the upcoming points drops.


Compare it to an aggressor than. About the same price (135pts for a unit of aggressors right now) they are T5, 3W, 3+ armor, they have 6+D6 S4 shots at BS3 AND 3 attacks (4 in first round and 4(5) for sgt) at S8 -3AP 2dmg. And those guys aren't considered competitive right now.

The fact is that the killakan with big shootas is just a crappier version of an aggressor.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in gb
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United Kingdom

 Jidmah wrote:
People are already whining about nerfing koptas


"Orks relying on spam to win yet again I see"

That's because most of our units are baaaad, of course we're spamming the good stuff
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Afrodactyl wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
People are already whining about nerfing koptas


"Orks relying on spam to win yet again I see"

That's because most of our units are baaaad, of course we're spamming the good stuff


"Why don't you just take boys!"

Because you muppets complained about them so much that GW nerfed them into the ground.

"Why don't you take Battlewagons!"

Because you muppets complained about them so much that GW nerfed them into the ground.

"Why don't you take specialist units like Burnas or tankbustas?

Because you muppets complained about them so much that GW nerfed them into the ground.

"Why don't you take more mek gunz like you used to?"

Because you muppets complained about them so much that GW nerfed them into the ground.

ad infinitum, ad nauseam

Everytime we get a decent unit the interwebs erupt with "NERF THE ORKZ!" Dude lootas were god awful in 8th but so many complained about the loota bomb that lootas are unplayable garbage now.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






It's also incredibly hypocritical because these are the same exact people who spam redemptor dreadnoughts, volkite contemptors and Talos without batting an eye. When your army isn't super overtuned like DE is where you can make a pretty competitive list for most of its units, of course you're going to be taking the most optimal stuff in your army. What, do they expect 50% of our list to be comprised of grots or something?
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





I was going to say it’s just a property of orks, seeming strong, but never having the slowness or swingy nature of a thing understood to justify the high damage, but looking at other stuff in 9th I think it’s literally just because we’re orks. Dark lance averages what, 1.65 damage against a tank due to 9th wargear buffs (and can go higher due to trueborn and archons and such) while the rokkity ork “equivalent” does .22 damage, having to move to get in range. I heard people crying out a ton about tankbustas going to be op, but never really anything major about dark lances in specific.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
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United Kingdom

So I've sat and tinkered with my list, assuming that the rumoured points changes are correct, and it hasn't even changed that much all things considered.

In essence my Kommando mobs have gone from 10 to 5 apiece and lost the bomb squigs, and I've lost a Rukkatrukk. But I've also gained Nitro Squigs on the remaining rukkatrukk and I've even managed to fit in a now cheaper Kannonwagon.

So basically I've just lost a few kommandos
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I was going to say it’s just a property of orks, seeming strong, but never having the slowness or swingy nature of a thing understood to justify the high damage, but looking at other stuff in 9th I think it’s literally just because we’re orks. Dark lance averages what, 1.65 damage against a tank due to 9th wargear buffs (and can go higher due to trueborn and archons and such) while the rokkity ork “equivalent” does .22 damage, having to move to get in range. I heard people crying out a ton about tankbustas going to be op, but never really anything major about dark lances in specific.


I think DE have been top dogs for so long that people have gotten desensitized to how busted they are (considering the amount of points/erratas changes they've received and they're STILL so strong says something) and so no one bothers really complaining about them anymore. Orks on the other hand have never really had the longevity of competitiveness that other armies have, so when our codex came out swinging and in skew lists, which usually push towards more one-sided games because we don't win wars of attrition like DG do, people freak out and think that we need to be put into the dirt. It's also supported by competitive players who prefer easier armies to collect like marines.
   
Made in cz
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Prague

Spaming units… spamming units…. You mean these turboterminators spams? Dreadnouhts spams? Drukhari raiders spams?

11000p and one Ad Mech T-shirt 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






SemperMortis wrote:
The problem is we are talking about competitive builds not whatever builds.

Since this is the second time you bring this up - this thread is about all competitive gaming, i.e. gaming to win. It is explicitly not just about perfectly optimized lists in tournament settings, it is just part of the thread rules to keep people regularly starting the "I'm not playing just to win" or "I'm not WAAC!" discussion.

You are supposed to state which kind of game you are discussing and have to accept that their point isn't invalid just because you never meet such units in your play style.

It's also worth noting that when you deem vanilla terminators too bad to see play and blackie says that MANz are even worse than them, you kind of are on the same page.

 Jidmah wrote:
A unit is not not eligible to shoot after advancing unless it has at least one assault weapon.

Shootas are dakka weapons, the only assault weapon available to kommadoz is the burna.


Going to have to disagree. The rare rule says it allows units without guns to shoot and it allows them to do so after advancing. So a unit without guns by default does not have an assault weapon and therefore by your logic wouldn't be eligible to be chosen to shoot, but that rules allows them to use an ability AKA the Bomb squig. Its going to be a rare scenario where it happens but I don't think its illegal to use a bomb squig after advancing since its not a ranged weapon, rather an ability.

Bomb squigs are used when you select a unit to shoot: Once per turn, when a unit with a bomb squig is selected to shoot or fire Overwatch, if it has any bomb squigs remaining, the unit can release one.

Shooting phase rules: Start your Shooting phase by selecting one eligible unit from your army to shoot with. An eligible unit is one that has one or more models equipped with ranged weapons. Units that Advanced this turn, and units that Fell Back (other than TITANIC units) this turn are not eligible.

You are not allowed to select a unit to shoot if it has advanced unless it has an assault weapon: If a unit includes any models equipped with Assault weapons, that unit is still eligible to shoot with in your Shooting phase even if it has Advanced this turn,[...]

The rare rules change nothing about that, as it's not an "instead of shooting" ability. Technically it's even in addition to shooting.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/01/19 07:33:13


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Tomsug wrote:
Spaming units… spamming units…. You mean these turboterminators spams? Dreadnouhts spams? Drukhari raiders spams?


Dreadknight spam also, imagine us spamming nauts .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:


It's also worth noting that when you deem vanilla terminators too bad to see play and blackie says that MANz are even worse than them, you kind of are on the same page.



I said that MANz are better than vanilla terminators.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/19 07:48:41


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Ok, then I got you wrong. I would disagree on that though, for the sole reason that storm bolters are actually decent shooting, which is not the case for MANz.

If orks had a second terminator unit with storm shields or weapon options similar to blight lords or scarabs, you wouldn't even think one second about bringing MANz.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
 
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