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I have just picked up the eldar codex since I had some models laying about. I was thinking of a list like this

Farseer with one power

10 Firedragons/aspect in wave serpent
10 harleys/shadowseer& 5 kisses

10 Dire avengers/ aspect in wave serpent
7 pathfinders
7 pathfinders
3 guardian bikes with spearlock on jetbike/ 1 shuriken cannon
3 guardian bikes with spearlock on jetbike/ 1 shuriken cannon

2 wraithlords/ scatter laser & shuriken cannon

I was planning on using the Wraithguard trailed by the harleys as a spearhead and use them as a wedge to crush a flank of the enemy, wave serpents and bikes( spearlocks to hunt vehicles) to be used as a harrying force and the pathfinders as firebases.

Any thoughts on how to refine this list on how I want to play it?

Standard advice would be that 10 Fire Dragons is too many. Mostly people recommend 6. Use the saved points to get spirit stones for the Farseer.

I'd prefer 1 larger bike squad personally. Your way might be workable though.

IMHO you should have somekind of counter assault unit for pathfinders. Maybe like 6 scorpions with exarch and shadowstrike power will atleast slowdown masses of cc units like orcs and hormagaunts. And the scatter lasers on wrathlods seems a bit useless if you are having them both moving all the time.

But monsterous creatures can fire 2 weapons right? Thats the reason I put the anti infantry in the lords to clear as they advance.

HOw about this implementation:


Farseer w/ doom

6 Firedragons/aspect in wave serpent
10 harleys/shadowseer& 5 kisses

10 Dire avengers/ aspect in wave serpent
5 pathfinders
5 pathfinders
6 guardian bikes w/ shuricannon x2 + spearlock w/ embolden

2 wraithlords/ scatter laser & shuriken cannon

Why cant firedragons come in 10man squads? I understand you only need so many str 8 ap 1 melta shots to kill a tank but against a monsterous creature or against a MEQ/TEQ squad, especailly if it has a IC in it then more shots would be much more advantageous.
Oh & if you get a dragons breath for the exarch then the unit can aim at a larger sqaud & actually kill enough to make a dent. Which means the sqaud can deal with basically any type of unit in the game. Even more so with guide.

If you put enough shots on a sqaud with an IC in it, one str 8 shot will go on the charater & if the model fails any Invunerable save then hes gone!

Drop some harlies to get more kisses. The farseer wants guide (and fortune) if he goes with the dragons.. he wants fortune - they die to easily otherwise (and doom, for rending) if he goes with the harlequins.

Troops - what Wues said.

Heavy support - Likewise

From what I'm seeing, you are seriously low on antitank, with only the dragons as a substantial unit. Might I suggest brightlances on the wraithlords?

I've been taking everyones advice and so far here's what my list looks like:

Farseer w/ doom

8 Firedragons in wave serpent
10 harleys/shadowseer& 5 kisses

10 Dire avengers/ aspect in wave serpent
7 pathfinders
6 guardian bikes w/ shuricannon x2 + spearlock w/ embolden

2 wraithlords/ scatter laser & shuriken cannon (considering the brightlance)

That puts me at about 1530 points, so I have another 320 to spend yet. I was thinking about what smurf said and probably will outfit with bright lances, that still leaves me with about 290 pts (there abouts). Here's a few possibilities: I originally had an avatar in the list to advance with the wraithlords, with the extra points I could field an Autauch. Or I could take a large reaper squad to suppport from the backfield.

if youve got loads of points left whhy oooh whhhy have you only equipped five harlequin kisses on ten harlequins?!

Also. Like I said.. you either NEED guide on the dragons (makes them very sillily effective) or fortune, for the harlequins. They are simply too brittle with 5+ invunerables or the occasional 4+ cover save. In combat a couple marines beating on them with str 4 attacks, after youve killed loads, will loose you a fair few without that re-roll & even with it its not a sure-bet.

If your making a 1850pt list.. get another Dire avenger wave serpent combo. give the wave serpent the brightlance. Otherwise you'd wanna change both shuriken & scatter laser on a wraithlord to a brightlance + EML which = 35pts & thier fine as they are. A single TL-mobile (theres the thing here) brightlance, even if at BS3 is more oppertune.

The pathfinders can survive just fine as 5man sqauds. They have 2+ cover saves & 36" range.. anything bar whirl-wind shots (anti-cover save, ap5) will just bounce off thier saves (if there is a whirl-wind, deploy in multi-story buildings with floor above thier heads which negates ordenance weapons) where-as those jetbikers will die pretty quickly if things start shooting at them so extra bodies are always worth it.

Also.. if youve really got the points.. finish equipping your sqauds. Get fire-dragons, full 10man in a wave-serpent with the dragons breath flamer. If you do go with other peoples advice & only take a 5-6man team.. give them the "Tank hunters" exarch power so that can singularly excel at anti-tank - And put them in a falcon. Give the falcon an EML & holofields/spirit stones.

Razerous wrote:The pathfinders can survive just fine as 5man sqauds. They have 2+ cover saves & 36" range.. anything bar whirl-wind shots (anti-cover save, ap5) will just bounce off thier saves (if there is a whirl-wind, deploy in multi-story buildings with floor above thier heads which negates ordenance weapons) where-as those jetbikers will die pretty quickly if things start shooting at them so extra bodies are always worth it.

Yeah but thats if its a firefight not cc. What will ur pathfinders do if the enemy is 30 hormagaunts? Any horde of cc units can get to pathfinders in 3 turns even if pathfinders are on friendly deployment zone. Cover wont save you.

illuknisaa wrote:

Razerous wrote:The pathfinders can survive just fine as 5man sqauds. They have 2+ cover saves & 36" range.. anything bar whirl-wind shots (anti-cover save, ap5) will just bounce off thier saves (if there is a whirl-wind, deploy in multi-story buildings with floor above thier heads which negates ordenance weapons) where-as those jetbikers will die pretty quickly if things start shooting at them so extra bodies are always worth it.

Yeah but thats if its a firefight not cc. What will ur pathfinders do if the enemy is 30 hormagaunts? Any horde of cc units can get to pathfinders in 3 turns even if pathfinders are on friendly deployment zone. Cover wont save you.

lol. So how exactly will even 10 pathfinders prevent being beaten up in CC? I know 7 is a lucky number but even 7 hormagaunts will eat these guys.

The idea of 5man minimal teams is making the best use from the MSU concept. If you have 2x5man teams for example, only one could get charged at a time (-as you will deploy then apart) & likewise only 5 can ever be effected by those feared flamer templates. If it is simply 1x5man team then all your doing is damage mitigation. 5 work fine as 5, 7 adds to more shots & too many more killable points. If I could (and if killpoints werent such an issue) Id buy them in squads of three.

Razerous, your talking about backing up the Harleys and or the F-dragons with a farseer right? I understand the minimum squad concept I use it to bait with my marines. I think another squad of Dire Avenger in a Serpent is a sound addition and would solve some of my issues. I am going to play with the points when I get home this afternoon and see if I can bring the Dragons into a decent tank hunting unit, maybe add a farseer ( to support the harleys) and then add the Dire avenger squad.

Hmm...
I still think 6 Dragons would be better. Drop them in front of a land-raider or something and fire away. It'll probably die, which means they've earn't their points back, and gained you a Kill-Point,. Thet will most likely die, but oh well - see above. Drop the Harleys for Banshees, and add another Dire Avenger/wave-serpent combo. Add a unit of Dark reapers with Exarch, fast shot and EML, and maybe anothe farseer if you have the points.
VH

About the pathfinders - small squads, self suffecient. More da's, agreed.. good. Yes, I am talking about supporting either your harlies or/and your dragons with a farseer. For example a farseer could be placed in a sqaud of dragons, doom a sqaud for the harlequins to charge, while guiding his own unit of dragons. Id also suggest fortune. A 3-power farseer isnt crazy, just more flexible. Plus that way - your harlequins may be more vunerable without fortune but they can make use of thier Hit & run and thier ignore terrain rules.

Thing about the fire-dragons.. you can gear the unit to make them soley effective against tanks (small squad + tank hunter) or invest a few more points & make them effective against everything, shooting wise. From a MC, to a monolith to a termie squad to a large (ish) gaunt sqaud. Granted the weakest thing will be large hordes but thats a problem for any unit.

Razerous wrote:Why cant firedragons come in 10man squads? I understand you only need so many str 8 ap 1 melta shots to kill a tank but against a monsterous creature or against a MEQ/TEQ squad, especailly if it has a IC in it then more shots would be much more advantageous.
Oh & if you get a dragons breath for the exarch then the unit can aim at a larger sqaud & actually kill enough to make a dent. Which means the sqaud can deal with basically any type of unit in the game. Even more so with guide.

Fire dragons can come in 10 man squads, but it is a waste. The big issue with fire dragons is that they have a 12" range (8" if you thrown in the heavy flamer and 6" when you are going after tanks). When you are this close to the enemy, you don't live long. Sure you may kill off whatever you were shooting at, but now you are sitting out in the open with T3 and 4+ saves. If there is anything in range to shoot you (and there will be) you're going to take it on the chin and it only gets worse if something is close enough to assault you. So while the 10 man squad could be very useful for taking out lone units that are isolated from the rest of the enemy army (like deep striking terminators...without storm shields) they are a one shot wonder against anything else. Adding in an exarch with the heavy flamer only goes to further dilute them. This gives them the ability to go after horde units...something they should not be going after in the first place. I for one am not willing to spend points to multi task a unit that only has one job and is unlikely to live to do something after their initial strike.

So lets look at capability vs numbers. 6 is generaly considered the optimal number, but this is mostly due to the fact that it means they can be transported by a falcon (the univers' most survivable transport) but what does math say...

6 dragons have a 45% chance to kill a 4 wound monsterous creature (with no cover). This goes up to 62% and 75% as you add in a 7th and 8th member.
6 dragons have a 76% chance of destroying an AV 14 vehcile with shooting. This goes up to 81% and 85% adding on more members.
6 dragons have a 82% chance of destroying an AV 13 vehcile with shooting. This goes up to 87% and 90% adding on more members.
6 dragons have a 87% chance of destroying an AV 12 vehcile with shooting. This goes up to 91% and 93% adding on more members.
6 dragons kill an average of 2.2 terminators per round. This goes up to 2.6 and 3 as you add on the 7th and 8th members to the unit.

All in all, you just don't see large increase in ability as you add on more dragons and going up to 10 is just silly against anything other than terminators since you will most likely kill whatever you're shooting at with 6.

Okay, I can see how 10 could be overkill but they arent expensive per model. Those extra bodies will help A) massacarer the unit they fire at thus preventing a charge & b)prevent themselves running away after X casulties.
I still stand by mount wound allocation + lots of str 8 ap 1 hits + IC & his squad = quite possibly dead IC.

6 is a one-hit wonder, 10 could be a vaible stay-there sqaud. A fortune/guide farseer (with doom for these harlies while its in the tank/or the dragons arent shooting e.g re-embarking) will keep them alive from return fire via fortuning thier saves (be it 4+ or 4+ cover.. your quite likely to get to choose one) while the guiding will ensure even large tough squads will die quite assuredly.

But, falcon firedragons is nice. I prefer dive-avenger crewed "autarch training vehicle" falcons.

Yes,but they are fir dragons. They shouldn not be shooting anything except tanks. Maybe, monsterous creatures, but mostly tanks. if you take a 6-man squad and that Vindicator dies, voila! They've earn't their points back. Take a 10-man squad, and they still have to kill something else, which is unlikely given the fact that once they kill that tank the enemy wants them dead. Even if you happen to have a Farseer thats not busy Fortuning something else, they will still die to massed fire.
VH

Tis a narrow-minded opinion. Most of the eldar army has a 4+ or worse save & as a farseer cant make use of an exarchs shadowstrike ability (due to not being of the scorpain aspect) i rarely see 3+ saves being fortuned, cept on guardain jetbikes.

Why would a unit die to massed fire? Thats exactly what the extra bodies prevents (or rather, absorbs). You kill a vindi - great. You obliterate a 5man termie squad with an IC 2nd turn (first turn, your other ranged anti-tank elements blew up that land-raider) Brillaint. Theyve made twice thier points back.

Its simply a case of being able to do a thing. 6 dragons can shoot & kill tanks or just irritate other things (causing 1-3 casulties). For the pleasure of another 64pts & a kindly farseers support you vastly increase the squads scope of death.

Have a slightly variably army with multiple viable locations for the farseer & id say your doing a good job. Its OT but slightly relevent.

Im also not saying you should always go 10, even if they are in a high-capacity wave-serpent. Im simply saying a 10man squad is quite viable & effective.