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I am codex-less where it involves Necrons. Can anyone site the living metal rule for me so that I can understand what my boyz can and can not do to a monolith? I understand that it restricts what you can pile on top of your armor penetration rules, but I'm hoping there is some clause in there that says, "...but Carnuss can still effect them if he does ____!" or something to that effect. Surely that's in the rule somewhere.

Well, the GW FAQ says that Power Fists still double the model's strength for attacking Monoliths. That's your best bet right there.

- ****ing double post.

Hmm... It negates bonuses to Strength though, from what I gather from the Monolith discussion in the Tactics forum. So the only guy with fist out there that has any chance of destroying it (not just its anti-infantry guns) is a warboss. That seems to be pretty lite as far as options. Surely they didn't leave orks with only their 2D6 STR weapons like Zzap Guns and SAGs as their only option for artillery... Did they?

Orks got four reliable thinks to get a 'lith with.
Warbosses with Power Klaws, Deffdreads, Killa Kans and Tankbustas with Tankhammers. Shooting at them is rather wasteful IMO.
Deffrollas works great too if you allow that sort of thing.

I didn't think about the close vehicle options. I don't own a dread, kan, or squad of tankbustas, but that is easily remedied. I'll definitely remember to keep that Battlewagon out there as an option, as I completely forgot about my D6 S10 hits off of that guy. Now I feel like a grot for not thinking about those options.

Webbe wrote:Warbosses with Power Klaws, Deffdreads, Killa Kans and Tankbustas with Tankhammers.

QFT That's about it.

Killing off 75% of the "necrons" on the table also takes out the monolith. Generaly the better option really.

All the Living Metal Rule is Cap any Penetration Dice to 1d6 (so chainfists and Melta dont work) and keeps its AV at 14 Against Lance Weapons.

Power Fists doubling strength, DCCW, Sismic Hammers +1 to Damage, Tank Hunters et al all still work.

against necrons just make warriors the priority, mono's dont do that much damage, they can either be ignored or hidden from while working on killing off 75%

I have been wondering this for some time, and I play Necrons, so its pretty important to me to get it right.

What justification do you have that:

"Power Fists doubling strength, DCCW, Sismic Hammers +1 to Damage, Tank Hunters et al all still work."

Given the Power Fist and equivalents is FAQed and not debatable, we won't discuss those. Yes they work normally.

But Tank Hunters is a fairly common occurance, as lots of races have options to take Tank Hunter upgrades. And The Necron Dex throws a pretty powerful catch-all out, the 'no matter what' clause. So how is it that you can figure Tank Hunters still works against Living Metal?

The older Necron FAQ actually rules that Tank Hunters DOES NOT work. Very specifically. I know that we aren't on the old FAQ anymore, but in my opinion if the ruling hasn't been overturned, it should still be valid, at least it gives an indication that GW intended it a certain way once-upon-a-time.

I'm sure this is a hot topic, so would be grateful if anyone had links to other posts regarding this issue.

I'm not sure how hot a topic it is, but there are certainly other discussions out there. There is this one from the Tactics forum that talks about it and prompted me to ask my question here. You'll note that in that thread, they state that Furious Charge's +1 strength doesn't apply, which would seem to disagree with this thread given that Furious Charge, Tank Hunter, and all of that all sort of fall in the same boat.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/230210.page

ubersnax wrote:I have been wondering this for some time, and I play Necrons, so its pretty important to me to get it right.

What justification do you have that:

"Power Fists doubling strength, DCCW, Sismic Hammers +1 to Damage, Tank Hunters et al all still work."

It's called the rules. Does Living Metal Say they dont work? No? So they do.

Actually it does say they don't work.

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armor penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what."

I don't see anywehre where it says, roll a d6, add unaugmented strength, then add a whole bunch extra points onto that total depending on special rules. It says all the special rules don't work.
Tank Hunters says you add +1 to your armor penetration roll, Living Metal says you don't get that bonus. I was going to attach the old FAQ, but not sure how GW would like that... so I'll quote a little piece of it intead:

"...Don't count any bonus penetration of ANY sort against a Monolith. So no bonuses for extra Talos attacks, tank-hunter veteran skills, etc... The only exception is the Vindicare Assassin's Tank-Hunter round. As this shell is not bonus penetration as such, it will work. Note that you still roll 2d6 and pick the highest when attacking the Monolith with Ordinance weapons."

Like I said in my previous post, this is the older FAQ, but the new FAQ specifically permits Powerfists/claws and Thunderhammers for doubling strength, but doesn't mention reversing any of the other Living Metal rules, so I believe the old ruling is still correct.

Please refrain from being rude, as no one has been rude to you. I like to think that as a gaming community we can all be a little more mature than that.

The old rulings no longer apply, they are replaced by the new FAQ.

That's true, but the new FAQ doesn't say yes to Tank Hunters, the Codex seems to disallow it with a wide variety of interpretations, and the old FAQ specifically says no to tank hunters. I can't see how someone would justify being able to use Tank Hunters against a Monolith, and if they can, I'd like to hear them out. In my mind 'no matter what' means you don't get bonuses.

ubersnax wrote:Actually it does say they don't work.

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armor penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what."

I don't see anywehre where it says, roll a d6, add unaugmented strength, then add a whole bunch extra points onto that total depending on special rules. It says all the special rules don't work.
Tank Hunters says you add +1 to your armor penetration roll, Living Metal says you don't get that bonus. I was going to attach the old FAQ, but not sure how GW would like that... so I'll quote a little piece of it intead:

"...Don't count any bonus penetration of ANY sort against a Monolith. So no bonuses for extra Talos attacks, tank-hunter veteran skills, etc... The only exception is the Vindicare Assassin's Tank-Hunter round. As this shell is not bonus penetration as such, it will work. Note that you still roll 2d6 and pick the highest when attacking the Monolith with Ordinance weapons."

Like I said in my previous post, this is the older FAQ, but the new FAQ specifically permits Powerfists/claws and Thunderhammers for doubling strength, but doesn't mention reversing any of the other Living Metal rules, so I believe the old ruling is still correct.

Please refrain from being rude, as no one has been rude to you. I like to think that as a gaming community we can all be a little more mature than that.

As Has been said, the Old FAQ has no Bearing on the Current State of the rules. The way you express the rule "In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its augmented strength and a single d6 no matter what." I have no idea where you got that from. Was that from a Old FAQ?

Looking at the actual rule as written in the codex, the Rule specifically mentions "Attacks which count the targets Armour Value as being less than it really is" and "weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice" as the only things Living Metal Affects. Nowhere does it mention modifiers to the Armour Penetration roll (ala tank hunters) or modifiers to the damage table (AP1 or Seismic Hammers) nor does it mention anything about using unmodified strength at all.

From that, I deduce that nothing but what is specifically mentioned (Lance and Extra D6) is affected by Living Metal.

My Apologies if I came across as rude. I just tend to get a bit worked up when i shouldn't

The first thing I quoted:

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armor penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what."

This is the last line from Living Metal in the most recent Necron Codex (the second of 2 printings, the first printing had slightly different Living Metal rules, but the second printing takes precedence, if you look on the first page with all the copyright jargon near the bottom it should say Second Printing). In my opinion this is enough to justify nothing getting any bonuses at all to Armor Penetration.

----Skip Train of Thoughts a bit----

I just brought up the 4.0.1 Necron FAQ as a clue to GW previous rulings, maybe to suggest the type of things they had in mind for the Living Metal. I agree maybe that has changed, but the current FAQ doesn't reverse the ruling on anything but Powerfist/claws/thunder hammers. I don't expect anyone to abide by old FAQ rulings, but if at one time GW ruled Tank Hunters = no bonus, why would they change.

----Skip Back----

Anyway, I always thought the codex ruling is pretty clear (second printing clearing up a few things from the first printing). If you do have the first printing I can quote the whole Living Metal rule, but I don't know if that's allowed on a forum...

Well, gee, Way to go GW.

I have the 1st printing. I wish they Would say in the FAQ exactly what that they went and Changed for the Second Printing

Well the second Printing incorporated all the errata from the Chapter Approved book ( I forget which one), which was in print at the time of the second pirinting of the Necron Codex. I'm sure that GW now assumes that all 'new' Necron players will end up with the second printing.

In this, as well as Army selection, and rules interperetation, they (GW) have always had a blind spot when it comes to what people will ACTUALLY do, as opposed to what GW THINKS they should do.

Agreed, from here on out, everytime this debate comes up in a game I will be mailing GW someones ring finger. I urge everyone else to do the same, unless they are playing me, that's 2 fingers, which could be construed as threatening somehow, I'm sure.