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This is a Khornate/Slaaneshi army whose fluff is based around the exploits of my old Tank Commander Magellan the Failure, and his 4th edition Iron Warriors band full of Dreadnought trophy racks without trophies. As the editions rolled over and the beautiful symmetry of four Dreadnoughts was shattered, they defected over to Slaanesh and Khorne in their indecision and changed names to something the language filter here would probably block. I'm looking for moral (and technical) support in switching out the Prince from this list and getting something fluffier (less good) and less used than the Lash. Otherwise, I'm just looking for general comments and flames. Don't feel restricted if you've got something to say.

HQ
Daemon Prince /w Wings, MoS, LoS 160

Troops
10 CSM /w Rhino, ML, Flamer 200
10 CSM /w Rhino, ML, Flamer 200
10 CSM /w Rhino, ML, Flamer 200
10 CSM /w Rhino, ML, Flamer 200

Fast Attack
10 Raptors /w AC /w PF, IoK, 2 Meltas, 290

Heavy Support
3 Obliterators 225
Predator /w HBS, Dirge Caster 105
Defiler /w TLLC 170

All for a grand total of 1750 points. The only thing I like about edition 5 are these even numbers that seem to be the new fashion.
I have another version, which incorporates a Sorcerer, no Power Fist on the Raptors and a whole bunch of Icons of Slaanesh, but... I don't know - should I?

Alright, time for the Villain's Exposure, or Tactics: (I hope all the bold words don't end up being an annoyance)

Overall, this is intended to be a flexible army. What with Chaos Space Marines bristling with weapons nowadays, I decided that their general battlefield versatility should be put to use. Therefore: Rhinos. In a defensive play - against anyone who will beat me up close - I'll line up the old transports to block off as much of the map as I can, then proceed to blast the enemy mercilessly. Playing offensively - against Tau, Imperial Guard and Eldar, I guess - I'll just do the usual; drive as fast as I can and never look back. The Flamers are there to assist in taking care of hordes, which would seem to be this army's weak point, and the Missile Launchers are for taking out enemy vehicles and mechas in a defensive game. Playing, for instance, against a more aggressive Chaos Player, I hope to have most of his transports out of order by the end of turn one. Hopefully, I get to go first.

The Defiler and the Obliterators have pretty obvious roles (though the latter may or may not Deep Strike) in any battle - shoot as much as possible. Additionally, the Defiler can help out with teleporting, heavily armoured foes in the home base. The Predator is there to provide support against light vehicles and hordes. It also serves as a trophy track, along with all other pieces of armour on the field.

Offensively, the Daemon Prince and the Raptors have more or less the same function: find cans, open cans. Defensively, I'll probably end up jumping around with the Prince and Lashing foes into view or into each other's way. The Raptors' defensive function would be as domestic anti-Terminator guards, able to cover the whole gunline in one bound.

That felt like a very short tactics section, but I guess most of my tactics are pretty self-explanatory. 40 Space Marines is nothing to scoff at, and I'll be doing my best to pretty much blow up the universe around them. I would guess that my army is strong against armour-heavy opponents and fairly weak against non-shooty hordes (Nidz and what else?). I fear Carnifexes something terrible, and flying Tyrants more still.

DP is looking good, though I personally prefer to take Warp Time as he can chop up unit nicely.

CSM's need some work though bud; first off ML and flamer with a rhino? The unit needs to be assault or range, a bit of both will result in not being much use at either. My suggestion as they are good CC troops is scrap the ML and take 2 melta guns for infantry/armour punch (though two flamers would work well again infantry & especially horde forces). Also an AC with a PF is really a must in my book, though starts to push the points cost – they will again lack punch in CC without it. Also, take a cheap IoCG for that vital re-roll.

Raptors are good but for those points I’d take a bike unit with melta guns and a PF champion or even a termy squad (only 30 points each).

Oblits are also usefull, but suseptable to S8+ weapon instant kill so get them in cover.
Predator is good anti-troop but I’d take las cannons for anti-armour. Loose the Dirge though I think.
Defiler I like these, keep them at the back and use them against infiltrators.

GL with what ever force you go for though mate

ML and flamer seem really counter-productive in the same unit. I'm not going to attempt to overhaul your list, but one of my favorite units for hordes is:

Havocs x10 - 270
4x Flamers, IoS, Champ w/Power Weapon and Combi-Flamer
Rhino

It's certainly fun if it works, and increases your body count as well (sometimes the opponent mistakenly shoots it instead of an actual scoring unit too).

Hm. Interesting replies. I hope I can get a discussion going with this. Let's see:

I'm trying to go for versatility in everything.

First off, both of you complain about ML/Flamers and, well, you have a point. If I were allowed to change weapons on those squads depending on my opponents, I definitely wouldn't keep that combo.

Otherwise, the ML is for defence and the Flamer, well, it's pretty much there because I had the points and my army is weak against hordes. In defensive games, I'm counting on the 4 MLs to help deter enemy transports early in the game, and perhaps take out a few advancing MEQ troopers. In an offensive game, they're pretty much useless - on the other hand, they are also dirt cheap.

With the Obliterators, the Meltas, the Prince and the Defiler, I don't think I need to make an expensive las-Predator (and lose a big source of ranged anti-horde power). It's sad that it won't take out any 13-14 armours by itself, but I'll live with it. The Dirge stays for the moment, since I had 5 points left over and it's pretty Slaaneshi.

I see where you're coming from with the bikes, actually - and they would fit the theme quite awesomely, and make for some nice models too. I might actually give that a shot, though I feel that the terrain-ignoring movement of the Raptors make them a more viable choice when I'm defending. Terminators are out of the question - I used to play them, but they never accomplished anything, and were beaten in close combat by a god damned Imperial Guard squad. Bikes, though, might not be bad at all.

Warp Time could work, too. Maybe I'd dare send him in on his own more often if he had that.

The Havocs definitely seem like a good idea, though, and I'd probably take 'em if I had any Heavy Support selections left. Hm, maybe I ought to remove the Dirge and all the Missile Launchers and Flamers, to outfit two Rhinos with Lascannons and two with dual Flamers.

ACs with Power Fists may be useful, but that's only something I'd do if I could also afford Icons of Khorne on them. The idea is that if I end up facing opponents that I'd need to use Power Fists against, I'll blast them from a distance rather than meet them head-on.

And I said I wouldn't do an overhaul.

"I'm trying to go for versatility in everything."

The best way to do that is with seperate, dedicated squads, rather than unfocused, swiss army squads. This is going to sound lame, but I absolutely own Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokemon (DS) and Magic. There are is usually one thing you want each piece of your "army" to do in any of these games, and you want it to be the best that it can be at it. The more you have of one type of thing, the more that thing is likely to succeed in whatever it is doing also. That doesn't change here.


"...the ML is for defence and the Flamer, well, it's pretty much there because I had the points and my army is weak against hordes. In defensive games, I'm counting on the 4 MLs to help deter enemy transports early in the game, and perhaps take out a few advancing MEQ troopers. In an offensive game, they're pretty much useless - on the other hand, they are also dirt cheap."

I'd dedicate still. If you want two troops squads with ML and Plasma, and two with Flamers or something. If you want straight shooty, just play Marines. They've got freaking 10 point Lascannons in tactical squads (wtf?). Otherwise, troops get Assault weaponry to maximize what they are.

Warp Time rules. Seriously.

I don't like Preds. Never have, don't intend on changing my mind. I'd rather take a squad of 3 termi's with combi-meltas or heavy/combi-flamers for cheesy kills. And I'm not a huge fan of termi's for what they are in "real" squads.

Power Fists aren't something you sometimes need and sometimes don't; they are always useful. If you're running Flamers or MLs that aren't always useful, and Power Fists always would be (and augment your basic troops already assaulty nature), they are logically a much better investment.

Just my thoughts.

St 8 missile launchers will struggle to pop even regular transports av 11-12. Vs av 13 and 14 tanks they wont cut it at all. I would second the two MG per squad. This allows you dto deal with tough infantry as well as enemy armor of all varieties. You can even drive 6" and fire both from the rhino, which preserves your troops when you don't want them out in the open.

As for flamers, the pistol shot + 3 attacks on a charge usually takes care of hordes pretty well, even orks. Just don't let them dual charge one squad. Two Power claws at once is too much for any one chaos squad to handle.

Also, AC's with fists are a MUST!!! Yes, it even warrents three exclamations! CSM are great cheap assault units(Noise marines and Zerkers do better, but they cost about 50 - 80 points more for the same size squad.) You have them set up in rhinos where they can get to just about anywhere in one turn, two at the most. Defensive play just wont cut it with this kind of force. You need to be aggressive every game. Use the rhinos as defense to slow down parts of the enemy you so you can overwhelm smaller portions of their list first. Stand and shoot will not work at all with this kind of list. You will lose that war of attrition, and not much out assaults you if you have the fists in there and don't waste the points on long range weapons that you will rarly if ever shoot. Those fists let you deal with vehicles anywhere your troops are, let you kill hard to kill things like dreds that otherwise engage you and you can never end the assault except by being wiped out, etc. The fist adds the killing oomp that also tips most assaults in your favor.

In my experience it is not worth it to put icons on anything except a terminator squad with lightning claws. Going before other In. 4 troops with 20+ Lightning claw attacks is priceless. It might be worth it on raptor squads of 20 as well, since the per model cost is actually fairly reasonable. YMMV but that's what I have come to believe. The marks are just too expensive and when you look at what you didn't include becasue you spent those points on marks usually makes it clear that the points are better spent elsewhere.

I think you could definatly use at least one squad of noise marines and or zerkers. They add the punch that makes an army like this viable.


I don't think CSM bikes are worth it, except as a small squad used to deliver melta guns quickly to cripple enemy land raiders. Even then you can usually find something that does the same job for cheaper points.

Defilers and preds are fun, but you don't have enough offensive power and are fairly easy to ignore or take out quickly. Defilers can work when you run multiples of them, but that reduces the number of troops on the battlefield.

Given your theme here is what I would suggest:

3x 10 CSM AC with fist, 2 MG, IoCG, Rhino 765
8 Noise Marines, 7 sonic blasters, Ac with fist, rhino 270
10 raptors as you had them 290
Prince as you have him 160
3 oblits 225

That leaves 40 points to give the NM AC a doom siren, or put some combi weapons on one of the AC's from regualr squads. Or you could upgrade the prince to a tzeentch or nurgle prince with warptime. You could also drop your CSM squads to 8 or 9 ech and only have one MG in each squad and drop an obliterator for a second prince. I always run two in 1500 or more. They are fairly easy to kill and I almost never finish a battle with either one alive unless I am totally rolling someone. They are vital when dealing with enemy armor and troops though, if it doesnt have an invul save or a rear armor of 14 they decimate whatever they hit usually, espescially if they charge the same target.

List I run usually look like this:
DP wings, MoS lash 155(I seem to remember a lash prince only being 155 .. but I could be wrong)
DP wings, MoT, Warptime 185 ish
4 x 8 CSM, AC with fist, MG, IoCG, Rhino 860
8 Noise marines AC with fist and doom siren, 7 sonic blasters, Rhino 270
8 zerkers AC with fist, rhino 243
This leaves about 37 points (depending on how accurate my princes loadouts were from memory) to throw combi weapons on the CSM ACs, or I ocassionally ad a combi melta to a rhino or two, or bump up the zerkers or NM to 9. For 2000 points I drop the zerkers rhino and put them in a land raider, or run oblits.

This list is pretty sucessful against most lists. All mech lists give me a little trouble as you have to pop averythign out of it's transports to get to the fun assaulty bits, but it is doable if you play it right. It downright rolls lists that can't stop me from getting there in one turn. General strategy is drive forward 12" on turn one, smoke. DP's using rhinos for cover. Turn two if the enemy deployed up to 12" on the board all 6 rhino units and the dps should be in charge range. Whole army charges theirs, they lose by turn 3 -4 at the latest if they did not prepare for this. Armies that are better in fights and ones that can get invul saves make it a lot harder (grrr ... sisters...) but you still have sheer number of attacks in the hundreds per round once most of your units are in assault.

Anyway, good luck either way, and feel free to use or ignore my advice as you see fit. I know not everyone plays the same way, and my style may not be to your liking. But trust me on the Power fists!

Meph

This is a real pain to reply to, I must say. I can't really break your post down and comment on it, Meph, since what you're suggesting is an entirely different army than I had in mind, with a vastly different set of tactics to it. Your logic cannot be denied, however (and I especially agree with you on bikes - had a wake up call when I recalled the points cost) and it's definitely something to consider. Before that, however, I was really looking forward to trying out this tactic. I'll look back at your advice once I've had reason thoroughly beaten into me. If that doesn't happen, I'll be glad I didn't get over-competitive.

None the less, thanks a lot for all the advice!

To Cannerus, I'll answer within the confines of my planning and current list:

I'm grateful for your thoughts. Please do keep on giving them.

It'll have to be Warp Time. I couldn't live with Lash of Submission.

Now, I don't think Warhammer can be compared with any card game (unless you've got every one of your units in reserve, hum hum), and though I do know more than I should about Pokémon tactics, I don't think the parallel works there, either. That's not to say you're wrong, I just think the comparison was meaningless.

Regardless of all that, I do see your point. Thing is, I don't think it applies to this situation. I'm only expecting to actually assault armies whose troopers I will have no trouble beating, like Imperial Guard or Tau - whether I flame them first or not, the result will be the same.

I picked the ML first, because I wanted cheap weapons that I could throw at enemy transports from the first turn on while playing defensively. The Flamers, I threw in because I might end up having use of them in case I happen to encounter Orks or Tyranids - the slots and the points were open; I'm all ears if you have suggestions on how I could put those 20 points to better use.

I'd like all the squads to have long range and template capabilities, because I don't intend them for different roles; I'll either be using all the Missile Launchers or all the Flamers, and those squads will probably be close enough to each other that they're targeting the same enemies anyway. I don't really need to focus my squads more on heavy weapons to take down light armour, and focusing two on Flamers and two on Missiles (or even Lascannons), won't increase my heavy fire power, or at all my Flaming - but it will take away two Missile Launchers. I prefer those to Plasma, again because I can use them early. Hopefully, you'll understand what I'm getting at - my CSM will operate so close to one another that switching the weapons around won't do much to focus them. If some of them get into combat, I want all of them in combat. Preferably supported by my Raptors.

I like Preds, always have. I can see your point here too, and if it were any player than I, I would probably agree with you. Thing is, my Terminators never survive. Game after game after game, they never do anything useful, they miss all their attacks, miss their Flamer wounds, fail their armour saves, get Vindicator blasts scattered onto them; the list is endless. It's not that they don't earn their points back - it's that they don't earn points. My Predator, however, has performed perfectly on far more than one occasion. Sure, they were oodles better with Mutated Hull and Parasitic Possession, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

When it comes to Power Fists, I simply flat-out agree with you. Power fists are good, clean fun for the whole family. The problem here is the 40x4 points cost (if you solve that, I will be impressed and grateful). I've got a Fist in my Raptor squad, and I pray that those 4 attacks will end up being worth their points.

<---- Big fan of massive transport lists

I hate Land Raiders, but damn are they effective troop delivery. I still run one at 1500+ despite hating them.

As far as the parallel, every single game you will EVER play is resource management. DnD, Risk, Monopoly, Settlers of Catan, Street Fighter - deplete what the other guy has in the most cost efficeint manner. There are only two strategies - Aggro (power, aggressive) and Control (limit what the opponent can do, take away options). Everything else is a balance of those two. Once you figure this out you can be about a million times more competitive at anything, but a lot of people will hate you.

looks good the general troops should own pretty well

Except maybe Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Simple, true and utterly unromantic. Not that it helps me right now, but still.

Looks like you've got a good debate on here bud - just thinking, the Raptors would work well in support of the DP or up the opposite flank to give the opponent two fast moving jump-pack-style units to worry about.

Magellan I have had the same luck with playing defensively with my chaos as you have had with your terms .. so definitely do what works for you. Balancing points with chaos is always the hardest factor and those fists are very expensive. That's why I run my squads at 8 with only one special weapon. To me they perform better that way. But I see where you are coming from too... Either way, good luck withyour list.

Meph

BennyB: Whenever I'm on the offensive, certainly. The tricky part here is cover, since those Earthshakers and Battlecannons have a single obvious target. :\

Meph: I actually played pretty offensively back then, but no matter whether I used Land Raiders or Deep Strikes, those 2+ boys did nothing. The Land Raider was nice, though.

I definitely see the use of squads that size, and I have considered it in the past. It's something like my plan D, depending on which units fail me when I lose.

Melta/flamer works well if you want an alternative to ML/flamer. however, i do not think that with transports ML/flamer is bad -- you can shoot the ML if you only move 6". They'll work... sorta for anti horde, too.

I made a list similar to this except with melta/flamer spam instead. use combi flamers on the rhinos, use meltas on CSM squads. works well against just about everything. compliment these units with Khorne berserkers and oblits, and everything's golden. if no oblits available, terminators with CF's will fit the bill, and take out just about any tin cans that need to be cracked. try and keep everything as mobile as the other things... strength in numbers. ex: get a daemon prince with wings and whatever you want, a rhino wall with CSM's, khorne berserkers can run... they don't necessarily need transports. if you do want them in transports, give them landraiders. the good thing about this sort of list is that it's using relatively cheap units -- 15 pt CSMs, with 5-10 point upgrades, generally costing 220-ish points. I would suggest 2 CSM squads to 1 berserker squad, and try and make them vanguard. by that quarter, 2 rhinos to one land raider. if you need any more firepower than that, take vindicators, but not predators unless absolutely necessary. I've always found predators to be practically useless, but that's just me. vindicators cost just 20 points more, and are much more deadly, and have enough things around them to keep things from shooting at them (Land raiders etc.)

i'm so caught up with things, i'ma make a list.
Flamers only usually need to be used once, so combi flamers are usually a good choice. and they still lend a bit of firepower even when exhausted.

khorne DP, wings - 140

10 khorne berserkers, champ w/PF, -- 250, mounted in land raider (220)
10 khorne berserkers , same as above (470 total)
10 CSM - melta *2 asp champ w/pf, rhino with combi flamer - 255
10 CSM - same - 255
10 CSM -255
10 CSM -255

total so far: 2100.
If you want to compensate for something, add 3 vindicators. 375 points. then give either a land raider or a vindicator daemonic possession, or whatever you want
it would end up as a 2500 point list.

if you can only do a 1500 list, take off a squad of CSM, and a squad of khorne berserkers. or something like that. this sort of list is very flexible, but always runs forward. it can really dish out the hurt against 'Zilla lists, and can hold its own against just about anything except terminators... but usually lists don't run too many of those. if it's a 2500 point list, you won't have too much to fear from terminators if you use vindicators effectively. I want to try this particular list out, but i don't have enough models. It looks like you might though.