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Note: I only play Ard' Boyz kill points, and the place where I play only uses Ard' Boyz kill points.

Daemon Prince, Wings, Lash, MoS

Daemon Prince, Wings, Lash, MoS

5 Chosen, 5x meltas
Rhino w combi-melta

10 Chosen, 5x flamers, IoCU
Rhino w combi-melta

10 Chosen, 5x flamers, IoCU
Rhino w combi-melta

10 CSM, 2 plasma, IoCU
Rhino w combi-melta

10 CSM, 2 plasma, IoCU
Rhino w combi-melta

10 CSM, 2 plasma, IoCU
Rhino w combi-melta

5 CSM, 1 plasma
Rhino w combi-melta

5 CSM, 1 plasma
Rhino w combi-melta

5 CSM, 1 plasma
Rhino w combi-melta

Vindicator
Vindicator
Vindicator

2500 points

Just recently got back into the game after 2 year hiatus. I appreciate any and all criticisms! How do you think this army would do in competitive play? How could I make it better? I have 20k+ points of chaos so I can pretty much make any changes suggested, this is just the black legion force I started with.

If you've got 20k points of chaos, aren't there some plaguemarines or obliterators in there? You've got 9 combi-meltas but once that's gone your can opening power falters. Vindicators are a bit unreliable when it comes to killing tanks, you can get 6 oblits for almost the same points as those vindis, and you'll get twin-linked meltas from those, able to deepstrike off those icons.

You are using Lash of Submission after all. Obliterators and their cannons are very nice to take out your foes.

Also, wouldn't cult marines be actually a lot better than the regular CSM? I know I use Berzerkers and Plague Marines at least. (Since I don't have Noise Marines or Thousand Sons.)

Ya think the cult troops are worth it? Also oblits? If so what type/how many do you think I should work in?

Generally, PM and zerkers work well together. PM can guard objectives, etc. and the Berzerkers provide some hard hitting CC power. Even if you decide not to take PM, you still need the zerks. Your only CC stuff is the DPs, and you might want to keep them out anyway so you can continue to lash. Your CSM may have more attacks than a normal SM in CC, but they don't have any power weapons or fists, etc, so they will get crushed against anything half-way decent in hth.

At 2500, you could build a much more solid list.

2 X DP mos/los

5 Chosen, personal icon, 5 meltas, rhino w/cm
5 Chosen, personal icon, 5 meltas, rhino w/cm

7 'Zerkers, personal icon, skull champ w/pw, rhino
7 'Zerkers, personal icon, skull champ w/pw, rhino
7 'Zerkers, personal icon, skull champ w/pw, rhino
7 Plague marines, personal icon, aspiring champ w/pf, 2 X plasma, rhino
7 Plague marines, personal icon, aspiring champ w/pf, 2 X plasma, rhino

3 oblits
3 oblits
3 oblits
Hold 1 or 2 squads of oblits back to deep strike on the icons for armor/troop killing joy. Sit the marines back on objectives and drop plasma shots in there. Use the non-tank hunting oblits to pie plate the lashed troops before the berserkers charge them.

I vote to go for the CSM swarm. Run one, maybe two squads of Plaguers or Zerkers but leave your points open. Then you can throw in a squad or two of Obliterators and fill the rest of your heavy slots with units of Havocs with 4x Flamers and a champ w/PW and Combi-flamer. Don't upgrade the rhinoes at all, they're meant to take a few shots and move 12" once or twice, and that's about it. That's my spin. I hate using all Cult troops because of cost and the huge swarm of 3+ armor is more than a lot of armies can take. Plus they have to waste a targeting on the rhino and waste the rest of whatever unit's fire. Everyone will tell you x9 or x6 Oblitz, but they're not necessary, just really good. My list is as follows:

Daemon Prince - 175
MoT, Warptime

Sorc - 145
MoS, Lash, Termi Armor

Termis x4 - 150
3x Combi-Meltas, Chainfist
LR (Dedicated) - 240
Daemonic Possession

3x CSM X9 - 250
IoCG, 2x Melta, Champ w/Combi-melta and Fist, Rhino

Zerkers x10 - 285
Champ w/Fist, Rhino

2x Havocs x10 - 265
IoS, 4x Flamers, Champ w/Power Weapon, Rhino

Oblitz x3 - 225

Edit: Unless you have a REALLY good reason, always go for a P-Fist over a P-Weapon because they're just better. Plasma will never be as useful as a Melta except in a standing unit (Plasma doesn't always fit the situation, Melta always does), plus Melta is cheaper.

I am in agreement with CTU. Unless you are going for a one god theme make the base of the army regular troops and spice in a squad or two of cult marines.

I also second his points on melta vs plasma, no upgrades on rhinos and always take fists.

You could do to swap one of the vindis for 2 oblits for variety and because they are pretty good.

On your first chosen squad with 5 meltas : that might be overdoing it a little. two or three will proboly get the job done, and will save 20-30 points as well as give you two types of models for wound grouping, which in some situations can save the meltas.

Dropping the combi meltas and switching the plasmas to meltas would net you around 100+ points to begin adding fists, as would dropping two or three of the meltas from the chosen squad.

I personally like to get my DPs into fights so I usually bring a MoT winged warptime prince or a MoN winged warptime prince instead of a second lash prince. But that depends on how much of your strategy is based on lashing and bashing your opponent. I usually dont run anything shooty in my choas (except melta guns) so its not as necessary for my playstyle.

Meph

Inigo Montoya wrote:At 2500, you could build a much more solid list.

2 X DP mos/los

5 Chosen, personal icon, 5 meltas, rhino w/cm
5 Chosen, personal icon, 5 meltas, rhino w/cm

7 'Zerkers, personal icon, skull champ w/pw, rhino
7 'Zerkers, personal icon, skull champ w/pw, rhino
7 'Zerkers, personal icon, skull champ w/pw, rhino
7 Plague marines, personal icon, aspiring champ w/pf, 2 X plasma, rhino
7 Plague marines, personal icon, aspiring champ w/pf, 2 X plasma, rhino

3 oblits
3 oblits
3 oblits
Hold 1 or 2 squads of oblits back to deep strike on the icons for armor/troop killing joy. Sit the marines back on objectives and drop plasma shots in there. Use the non-tank hunting oblits to pie plate the lashed troops before the berserkers charge them.

I like this a LOT LOT LOT, this is fantastic except, correct me if i'm wrong, you can't have lash princes with berserks cause of the whole slaanesh khorne thing.

What are you talking about? Chaos is all buddy-buddy now. I can have Lucius lead a squad of Khorne berserkers in a rhino, or Kharne sit joined to a squad of noisemarines for close combat support! No problem!

Thanks for all of the input everyone. All of my suspicions have been confirmed and I will be making some changes to my army taking certain things into account. If you can think of anything else please post it, I'm open to all novel and useful ideas!

Jessie, you son of a biznitch. And brian, seriously, stop encouraging this chaos lol-ocaust nonsense.

Spellbound wrote:What are you talking about? Chaos is all buddy-buddy now. I can have Lucius lead a squad of Khorne berserkers in a rhino, or Kharne sit joined to a squad of noisemarines for close combat support! No problem!

Thank you for clarifying i get the 3rd and 4th edition codexes or (codices) mixed up all the time.

Warboss Spleenstaba wrote:

Spellbound wrote:What are you talking about? Chaos is all buddy-buddy now. I can have Lucius lead a squad of Khorne berserkers in a rhino, or Kharne sit joined to a squad of noisemarines for close combat support! No problem!

Thank you for clarifying i get the 3rd and 4th edition codexes or (codices) mixed up all the time.

Of course, it's a no-no fluffwise.

And that recommended list up there with the 9 oblits, etc, is boring and waaaay overdone.

fatal_GRACE wrote:

Warboss Spleenstaba wrote:

Spellbound wrote:What are you talking about? Chaos is all buddy-buddy now. I can have Lucius lead a squad of Khorne berserkers in a rhino, or Kharne sit joined to a squad of noisemarines for close combat support! No problem!

Thank you for clarifying i get the 3rd and 4th edition codexes or (codices) mixed up all the time.

Of course, it's a no-no fluffwise.

And that recommended list up there with the 9 oblits, etc, is boring and waaaay overdone.

I concur. I find the idea of fielding 9 oblits horrifying. And slightly tempting from the view of a chaos player.

I just liked it because it had berzerkers, plague marines, and oblits which I love, and even though I h8 slaanesh lash is awesome. I'd prlly run 3 oblits 1 defiler, and 1 landraider if I were to truely run a chaos list, as 9 oblits is cheese.

seems to be plague marines, zerks, and oblits are pretty popular around these parts. Time to convert two more oblits!

Lascannons kill Oblitz. They get a 5+ invuln, who cares? I don't get why people think Oblitz are that cheesy. It's called Instant Death. "They could get a cover save though!" Then you probably get one too. Win-win.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Lascannons kill Oblitz. They get a 5+ invuln, who cares? I don't get why people think Oblitz are that cheesy. It's called Instant Death. "They could get a cover save though!" Then you probably get one too. Win-win.

Still better than every other heavy choice in the codex (unless you go LR-spam, but thats a whole other kettle of fish).

No, I love them. Don't get me wrong. I run 3, and have 6, but, like most everything else that's chaosy and good, it has great offense, costs more points and offers no extra protection. Quit worrying about what they can do to you and worry about doing it to them. As the War Machine rulebook says, "Play like you've got a pair."

I'm not really concerned about cheese. There isn't a list out there that can't be beat, no matter how many oblits/nob bikers/what-have-yous there are in it. I just don't like it because it is overdone, and pretty boring as a result. I am a chaos player myself, and I am quite happy with my Khorne army.