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2021/11/13 07:52:17
Subject: Re:Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
I'm just trying to figure out why the Magaera is the same cost as a Crusader. It's better in every conceivable way. I mean, I suppose its ranged output is slightly weaker but it more than makes up for it in CC and is thus a better all-rounder. Crusaders (along with all the other non-FW Knights) better get a price drop in the next balance update or if the new Knights codex comes out in the next few months. Otherwise I probably better find a decent 3d printable upgrade kit to turn a standard Knight into a Magaera if I ever decide to fully pursue running Knights.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
2021/11/15 03:52:21
Subject: Re:Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
Fishborne wrote: finished a 65 player tournament(wargames for warriors)and placed 6th (going 5-1) with a Metallica-Raven list. This was before the new rules.
GSC 59-28 win (went second)
DE 39-30 win (went second)
White scars 57-35 win (went second)
Raven Guard 48-93 loss (went first)
Deamons 65-63 win (went first)
Death Guard 55-35 win (went second)
Sicarian Infiltrators [4 PL, 85pts]
. Infiltrator Princeps (Stub/Sword)
. 4x Sicarian Infiltrator (Stub/Sword): 4x Power Sword, 4x Stubcarbine
++ Total: [99 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++
I took engage in all fonts, and grind them down most of the games. Followed by psychic ritual when they didn't have any psykers, or raise the banners against the death guard.
Canticles are solid gold on Knights! The Metallica strats for auto advancing 6",expanding the radiation 6" and enriched rounds are the big money makers. Hats off to my opponents for being amazingly great men. I had a blast all weekend!
That's great stuff. I also run Raven+Metallica. What's the deal with the 5 Rangers with an Arquebus? I ran that loadout in my Crusade league and they did jack every game. I couldn't imagine taking it to matched play. Did 3 Arqs really perform? Also, was the Dominus really worthwhile?
That's great stuff. I also run Raven+Metallica. What's the deal with the 5 Rangers with an Arquebus? I ran that loadout in my Crusade league and they did jack every game. I couldn't imagine taking it to matched play. Did 3 Arqs really perform? Also, was the Dominus really worthwhile?
The 5 Rangers were more of a back field objective holder and deep strike/ outflank buffer. Looking back I should have broken up the big Rangers into two groups of 10. The Arquebus made the de/white scar players jittery with their characters, So I played some psy ops mind games by talking them up to play into their fears. So they did their job a different way I guess!
The Dominus was a real player because he had so many special rules for the infantry. Even if he could fix the Knights they were always halfway up the board so it was moot. But when you can't give admek characters traits since it's a knight Warlord I wanted to give a reroll hits bubble. He was always with both groups of infantry at first then moved over to stay with whatever bigger group stuck around longer.
Metalica and Raven work great for keeping a high pressure game! People don't think these guys are such in your face until I get turn 1 charges (with 2 or 3 Knights) and a second wave of bodies in the mid table. My meta was less vehicles (unless you count the ork buggy list that took first) and far more elite infantry with dreads, hence the damage 3 plethora I was going for.
2021/11/15 05:10:58
Subject: Re:Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
That all makes sense with my experience too. After the points changes, I'm running this:
Spoiler:
Total 1995pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP] Knight Crusader, Meltagun, 480 [Warlord; Ion Bulwark; Fury of the Keep] 2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280 2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
I had been running Blessed by Metalica, and it's fine, but the Enginseer is often out of place. Ideally you can use its fight last strat to help the Knight, but in practice he's better off with the Dunecrawlers (or for a Dominus/Manipulus, with the troops). I bit the bullet and took Ion Bulwark instead to save CP on average.
I agree on the 10 man squads, but I think doubly so for Vanguard. I find it's easier to ensure Enriched Rounds hits a 10 man unit, rather than losing CP efficiency when the 20 man takes losses. Granted, those considerations change if you're buffing them. I think ultimately it's just much easier to get Acquisition At Any Cost on a 10 man unit, which can be game winning now that the Knights count more and you just need a single ObSec body to stick.
Most people don't think of Knights, or even really AdMech, as a mobile army. I often feel like I just win going first, because it's so easy to get first turn charges and it's almost impossible to hide from advancing Knights. Aggressor Doctrina, Benediction of the Omnissiah, everybody advances up. I think competent iterations of Raven and Metalica can hang with the best of them, but it takes more skill to manage the movement phase than the raw power of Lucius or Mars.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/15 05:12:09
I will wax poetic about how the Crusader has superior firepower and the Magaera's melee weapon is unnecessary, but up front I'll say on average the Magaera is better. Really, I didn't want to deal with getting or creating a Magaera.
That being said, the Crusader is better at shooting and House Raven lives on its ability to advance and shoot. The Crusader is better on turn 1 when you're using Flanking Maneuver to get angles (and so can't charge), and Benediction of the Omnissiah is stronger on a Thermal Cannon than any of the Magaera's weapons. If you break the enemy's back with that first volley, feet stomping will be enough for clean-up.
Of course, the inverse is also true: the Magaera is stronger with Invocation of Machine Vengeance, Landstrider, and Full Tilt to make turn 1 charges. Picking the enemy apart at a distance and being patient fits my play style better than reckless charges, but there's a case to be made for either.
Anyway, the single Raider squad is actually my secret weapon. At the start of the game, when I'm explaining my army and clearing up any gotchas, I detail the Raider's ability to turn 1 charge. If I go first, they'll launch 24" (or 30" if I choose Aggressor Doctrina) into the enemy's deployment zone and get their pick of any charge target. That usually puts the fear of the Omnissiah in them. It only takes 1 to disable their Eradicators or Ironstriders, so they usually deploy extremely conservatively. (Consequently, it's harder to get turn 1 charges with Knights so I favor the Crusader again.)
Once they've done that, the Raiders are still great vessels for Blaring Glory and Deafening Assault. They can also make an 11" line to block deep strikes and absorb charges, or score Engage On All Fronts.
What would you learned folk do if you were trying to run just the following in a 2000 point force?
2x Paladin/Errants
1x Converted Knight that can count as any Questoris chassis
1x Lancer
I've been outta the game since before the PA book so it's all rather overwhelming.
Cheers.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2021/11/21 23:23:39
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
I think that you can enjoy the list if your goal is to be thematic. Competitively it will lack firepower, board presence, and durability. You are better off dropping one of the Questoris for a trio of Armigers of some type. The non-Magaera Questoris are still probably not worth it in the long run, but I'd love to be proved wrong!
2021/11/21 23:29:44
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
I'm under no illusion it will be particularly strong. Consider it a thought experiment to make it as effective as possible given the 4 big bots restriction.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2021/11/22 00:04:00
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
I theorised a list that was 6 Helverins, 2 each of Warglaives and Claw/Volkite Moiraxs, and a Preceptor to serve as Warlord
In my first instance it was a custom Mechanicum house running Stormstriders & Hounds, along with the Dominus Helm
its such a stupid idea, but I love the idea of one knight leading a pack of 10 armigers thematically.
Experience is something you get just after you need it The Narkos Dynasty - 15k Iron Hands - 12k The Shadewatch - 3k Cadmus Outriders - 4k Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k
2021/11/22 21:20:24
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
Eldarain wrote: What would you learned folk do if you were trying to run just the following in a 2000 point force?
2x Paladin/Errants
1x Converted Knight that can count as any Questoris chassis
1x Lancer
I've been outta the game since before the PA book so it's all rather overwhelming.
Cheers.
Hmm, Paladins are garbage because the Battlecannon is statistically bad against all targets. Errants are fine, though as with the Warden, my preference is to trade the extremely situational melee weapon for an extra gun. The Lancer is a great melee threat. With your last free pick, I'd grab a Crusader to round out your shooting. The trouble is that you only have 1755 points, so you'll need to add some Armigers or something.
For factions, your best bet is probably Krast. The re-rolls are huge on the Lancer, and the Krast Warlord trait is exceptionally strong on Crusaders. I'd also make one of the Errants a Freeblade to get the Sworn to Quest boon for ObSec.
IHateNids wrote: its such a stupid idea, but I love the idea of one knight leading a pack of 10 armigers thematically.
The new competitive boogie man is a 14 Armiger list, so it's not dumb. It's not unreasonable to think a Preceptor with Helm of the Dominatus would be a better force multiplier than redundant Armigers.
IHateNids wrote: its such a stupid idea, but I love the idea of one knight leading a pack of 10 armigers thematically.
The new competitive boogie man is a 14 Armiger list, so it's not dumb. It's not unreasonable to think a Preceptor with Helm of the Dominatus would be a better force multiplier than redundant Armigers.
I didnt actually know that
Maybe I'm not dumb, for once. Thats a first
Experience is something you get just after you need it The Narkos Dynasty - 15k Iron Hands - 12k The Shadewatch - 3k Cadmus Outriders - 4k Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k
2021/11/24 12:55:28
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
I actually had another thought on my pack of hounds idea
Would I be better with 2x2 helverins + 3 warglaives + 3 moiraxes
Or
2x3 helverins + 2 warglaives + 2 moiraxes
I can't tell, and I'm getting the chassis delivered this weekend
I'm definitely building one pair of helverins, but I'm thinking of converting the other box into the other variants instead.
Advice?
Experience is something you get just after you need it The Narkos Dynasty - 15k Iron Hands - 12k The Shadewatch - 3k Cadmus Outriders - 4k Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k
2021/11/24 12:58:34
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
I think that Helverin's have a limited place, mostly against various types of Eldar. Moirax are better than both Helverin's and Warglaives, but they are more expensive. Warglaives are good for jumping onto objectives and wrestling for control of them. Moirax, especially the lightning locks version, are excellent against anything that is T6 or less but struggle against larger targets.
Edit: As much as possible, Magnetize. The arms especially are really easy to swap out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/24 12:59:15
2021/11/24 17:27:59
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
bmsattler wrote: I think that Helverin's have a limited place, mostly against various types of Eldar. Moirax are better than both Helverin's and Warglaives, but they are more expensive. Warglaives are good for jumping onto objectives and wrestling for control of them. Moirax, especially the lightning locks version, are excellent against anything that is T6 or less but struggle against larger targets.
Edit: As much as possible, Magnetize. The arms especially are really easy to swap out.
due to being capped at 5 LoW slots I couldn't have another 2 moirax, so its basically 2 helverin or one of each. If I was going to add a third moirax though it would definitely be lightning locks
Edit: I should also clarify, arms are dealt with. All of my moirax are interchangeable
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/24 17:29:37
Experience is something you get just after you need it The Narkos Dynasty - 15k Iron Hands - 12k The Shadewatch - 3k Cadmus Outriders - 4k Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k
2021/11/24 17:55:48
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
Definitely magnetize if you're 3D printing parts or getting bits. I think Warglaives are the best Armiger, and one of the best units in the book. I think Lightning Locks are also strong and compliment them perfectly. Thermal Lances kill tanks and heavy infantry, and the Lightning Locks kill anything smaller.
I think the perception comes from Moiraxes being easy to use; you just dump a bunch of shots at infantry. To get the most out of Warglaives, you need to line up your charges to tag multiple units and overlap for Pack Tactics and Pack Hunters. If there is a 5.75" gap between two units, a Warglaive can fit between them. Then you can throw another Warglaive at either unit, and activate Pack Tactics for +1 attack on each (or +2 if you get a third Warglaive in). You don't have to attack the same target, just be in engagement range at the start of the phase. Their melee is perfect for mulching anything except the heaviest vehicles.
All of this is to say Helverins don't really have a place. Their shooting is mostly equal to Warglaives against vehicles, except with a sweet spot against Dark Eldar Raiders. Their shooting is also equal or worse than Lightning Locks against infantry of all flavors. They aren't exactly bad, but after you've got enough of the other Armigers, you don't need very many.
I'd field a max of 2 Helverins, and I'd lean more toward Warglaives since you need melee to win objectives. So 5 Warglaives, 3 Lightning Locks, 2 Helverins.
DarkHound wrote: Definitely magnetize if you're 3D printing parts or getting bits. I think Warglaives are the best Armiger, and one of the best units in the book. I think Lightning Locks are also strong and compliment them perfectly. Thermal Lances kill tanks and heavy infantry, and the Lightning Locks kill anything smaller.
I think the perception comes from Moiraxes being easy to use; you just dump a bunch of shots at infantry. To get the most out of Warglaives, you need to line up your charges to tag multiple units and overlap for Pack Tactics and Pack Hunters. If there is a 5.75" gap between two units, a Warglaive can fit between them. Then you can throw another Warglaive at either unit, and activate Pack Tactics for +1 attack on each (or +2 if you get a third Warglaive in). You don't have to attack the same target, just be in engagement range at the start of the phase. Their melee is perfect for mulching anything except the heaviest vehicles.
All of this is to say Helverins don't really have a place. Their shooting is mostly equal to Warglaives against vehicles, except with a sweet spot against Dark Eldar Raiders. Their shooting is also equal or worse than Lightning Locks against infantry of all flavors. They aren't exactly bad, but after you've got enough of the other Armigers, you don't need very many.
I'd field a max of 2 Helverins, and I'd lean more toward Warglaives since you need melee to win objectives. So 5 Warglaives, 3 Lightning Locks, 2 Helverins.
Ok... I can see the wisdom in that.
I'll try the variant with 4/3/3 and see how it goes, and then proxy for more warglaives to see if I need to get more Moirax arms
ha ha 3d printer go brrrr
Experience is something you get just after you need it The Narkos Dynasty - 15k Iron Hands - 12k The Shadewatch - 3k Cadmus Outriders - 4k Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k
2021/11/24 21:53:52
Subject: Re:Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
Razerous wrote: So what is the pro / cons of the Warglaivers vs. Helvrins vs. Moirexes?
Each has it's own task
Helverins hurt things from far away, but as DarkHound mentioned, theyre overall a little lackluster at the moment
Warglaives want to be up close and optionally personal, and being armed with meltas they want to be hunting vehicles or big monsters, neither of which are all that common I think at the moment.
Moiraxes can do either, depending on loadout, and are arguably better at both. They can be ridiculous at long range with CBeams, close range infantry deletion with Lightning, Volkite, or Grav for light/med/hvy infatry respectively, and have a nice combat weapon too. However, as FW products they do a lot more damage financially, and some places are still touchy about FW in events, so YMMV
Personally I think they are all quite good, but Helverins are definately the weakest currently
Experience is something you get just after you need it The Narkos Dynasty - 15k Iron Hands - 12k The Shadewatch - 3k Cadmus Outriders - 4k Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k
2021/11/25 00:27:48
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
Warglaives are also 20 points cheaper, which often lets you put an extra Armiger body on the field instead of a similar number of Helverin's/Moirax. I personally am not a huge fan of Warglaive shooting, it seems like they miss/fail to wound a -lot-. But having a melee-oriented obsec guy that moves 14" is worthwhile on its own.
Lightning Locks with their extra 2 hits on 6s are much more reliable into infantry of all types. I picked up a squadron of Custodes bikes with them in my last game. They overwatch reasonably well and can hold objectives while your other stuff moves down the field to pressure the enemy.
Right now my list is two Magaera, 3x Warglaives, and 4x lightning locks. I'm not sure if this is enough firepower against mass Talox/Chronos, but there aren't many Drukari players in the area for me to playtest against.
2021/11/25 04:28:57
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
My meta is geared towards heavy infantry so I always pack a few grav with my lightning locks since AP and damage are needed. Don't mix on the same model though. It dilutes the dice rolls (I've had more luck rolling 2 dice at the same time than 2 individual rolls).
My list of best Armiger:
Warglaive
Grav then Lightning
Helverin
2021/11/25 04:57:58
Subject: Re:Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
IHateNids wrote:Warglaives want to be up close and optionally personal, and being armed with meltas they want to be hunting vehicles or big monsters, neither of which are all that common I think at the moment.
Honestly, heavy infantry are fair targets for their melta too. An average 3 shots at 12" into Intercessors kills about 2 and averages a quarter of their points back. But really, the money is their melee. Flat 3 damage at S12 strikes fear into every heavy infantry player, but hordes are especially vulnerable. They've got a lot of surface area for multiple Armigers to tag, even if they're separate squads. Most auras are 6", and that's exactly the spacing you're looking for.
The best Pack Tactics I've had was all 4 of my Armigers tagged a common ork horde for +8 attacks, and Pack Hunters also saved 3 re-rolls. They killed a Mega Armored boss, a couple MANz, and a third of the horde.
bmsattler wrote:Warglaives are also 20 points cheaper, which often lets you put an extra Armiger body on the field instead of a similar number of Helverin's/Moirax. I personally am not a huge fan of Warglaive shooting, it seems like they miss/fail to wound a -lot-. But having a melee-oriented obsec guy that moves 14" is worthwhile on its own.
Always pay the 5 points for an extra meltagun. You'll usually be in range, so it's 5 points for 50% more shots and double the minimum. That goes a long way toward making them feel consistent.
Yeah, I'm thinking convert the second box of Helvs into a Lightning Moirax & another Warglaive
Thanks for helping my indecisive ass make a decision
Experience is something you get just after you need it The Narkos Dynasty - 15k Iron Hands - 12k The Shadewatch - 3k Cadmus Outriders - 4k Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k
2021/11/26 06:23:11
Subject: Re:Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
I've got an interesting choice with no clear solution. I've been running my House Raven Knight Crusader with Fury of the Keep, which is a Thermal Cannon with +2 damage at all ranges instead of 2d6drop1. However, in my Crusade league I've been playing a Knight Warden to tone the army down and it's gotten me to try Endless Fury, with which I've been impressed.
Here's my thinking: at range, either relic is basically 50% more damage against their preferred target. Obviously the choice is meta dependent on whether you need 50% more antitank or 50% more anti-MEQ. However, I think the spoiler is the Thermal Cannon gets its extra damage roll at half range, at which point Fury of the Keep is only 20% better.
The fact that the Fury of the Keep lets the Knight skirt the edges and fire with full effectiveness is tactically valuable, but I don't know if I've ever won the game off the back of +2 damage. And I definitely don't stay at 36". The Knight usually gets into melee on turn 2 anyway.
I posted my list earlier, but again for context:
Spoiler:
Total 1995pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Crusader, Meltagun, 480 [Warlord; Ion Bulwark; Fury of the Keep/Endless Fury?]
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
Endless Fury also has a couple other small benefits: It can fire into melee and its better overwatch. Yes, most of the time you can fall back and shoot-charge, but there are enough weird things out there like Buggies and Talos that might wrap a knight.
The other thing to look at is what other anti-tank do you have? It looks like 4 Warglaives and the Fusilave. That swings me back toward the Fury of the Keep, as I think that vehicles are still very popular and you'll need some volume to deal with them.
2021/12/02 09:58:57
Subject: Re:Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
I'm back after quite a few more games. I played with the Endless Fury some more, and I paid particular attention to the difference Fury of the Keep would have made. The short answer is Fury of the Keep is definitely better.
I had a really uncomfortable match against triple Cadian Tank Commanders (which are really good now, by the way). The layout was opposite table quarters, and my Armigers actually had trouble getting into range to counter-attack after deploying conservatively. I was dancing around his Demolisher's range while getting pounded by the new relic Battle Cannon. Obviously, this is the tank match-up where the better anti-tank gun is better. What I have new appreciation for is how stark the difference is: the Fury of the Keep with one Flanking Maneuvered Armiger would have gotten an early kill on the important Demolisher. I only ended up winning due to some really unfortunate explosions and lucky damage rolls.
I also played against more Custodes recently than I ever had before. That's why I was giving advice earlier that Thermal Lances can go into heavy infantry. You'd think Endless Fury would be better, but there were two problems. I couldn't afford to get close enough to maximize the Thermal Cannon against their Dreadnoughts, and D6 damage feels awful against W3+ infantry. Honestly, Endless Fury+Thermal kills an extra 0.4 infantry compared to shooting Keep+Avenger at them. Worse, if they're in cover Endless Fury only kills an extra 0.17. It's not worth giving up huge amounts of anti-tank for minimal improvements against infantry.
Custodes are a unique case where even their infantry are anti-tank targets, but it made me pay attention to those opportunities. There's always an important target for the Fury of the Keep, but there's never a critical target for Endless Fury.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 19:42:05
Looking over the Chapter Approved 2022 changes, Magaera are up +20 points and Lightning Locks/Volkite on the Moirax are +5 points each.
The new missions also encourage more actions, which can be taken by any unit not just infantry (I think!). That in mind, I think having 5+ Armigers is more important than ever. Or an allied force for chaff like servitors or IG squads to do stuff instead of a Crusader spending an action to plant a bomb.
2022/01/22 16:54:01
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
Get a Vanguard of Rouge trader voidsmen and Inquisitor acolyte squad because they have agent of the Imperium so your Knights are still objective secured.
2022/01/22 17:56:36
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
I can't find where Inquisitorial Acolytes have Agent of the Imperium, which is a shame because they would absolutely work. I like the idea of the Voidsmen though!
2022/02/04 19:32:59
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
~15000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: 
~1900 | Imperial Knights: 
~2000 | Sisters of Battle: 
~3500 | Leagues of Votann: 
~1200 | Tyranids: 
~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: 
The Narkos Dynasty - 15k
Iron Hands - 12k 
The Shadewatch - 3k 
Cadmus Outriders - 4k 
Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k 
