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Made in pl
Dakka Veteran




Germany

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
A LOT of people have been saying that, especially since it's been nearly 6 months and they're still only dropping maybe a couple 100 units each shipment. They're doing better than GW, but Sony can't keep up with demand either and there's still a ton of people worried they won't get one for a very long time.
That's not even slightly the same thing. Sony is still making PS5s and is unable to meet demand. How is that at all similar to what happened with Cursed City?


And for one, Sony actually acknowledged PS5 sold out and didn't pretend PS5 doesn't exist.

Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




yukishiro1 wrote:
GW doesn't like to explain, and it doesn't like to apologize. GW thinks "communication" means constantly bombarding the marks err customers with social-media style advertising "content." When things go wrong, radio silence is the preferred go-to, and when they go so wrong that isn't an option any more, they issue some kind of statement that is always very careful not to acknowledge it was their screw-up, and presenting whatever they're going to do about it as some big favor to everybody. People only think it's better than the Kirby era because back then they didn't even do the social media advertising err "engagement."

It's interesting, it's honestly rare to see a company so unwilling to hold up its hands when it screws up. Even their FAQs and errata never apologize or admit they got something wrong, no matter how badly they screw something up. Who can forget the Iron Hands nerf, where they so memorably let drop that they had been warned by the playtesting team what a fiasco they were creating, but decided to go ahead anyway because <reasons>, and then presented the fact that they were fixing what should never have been released in the first place as some sort of big gift to the community?


They've been like that (or much worse than that) for decades. Why would anyone expect anything different now? All the moaning, wailing and gnashing of teeth will make no difference to them whatsoever. And it won't make any difference to the future (non?) availability of Cursed City.

They are what they are and it makes life easier if you just learn to deal with it. If the way you choose to deal with it is to avoid buying their stuff then so be it, but you really don't need to try and convince everyone else to do the same.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






So what, because they have sucked before we should just eat gak now and not complain? Jeeze, GW did something that upset a lot of people in a big way. Let them be upset without trying to tell them they are wrong, at least GW isn't doing that.

Of course this is also not an analogous case as it is a different circumstance anyways, but one fallacy at a time...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
deano2099 wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:That is all it would take.

Things going wrong - fine. Oh there’ll be those determined to use it to paint GW as EvilBadWrong, but then there always is.

Giving Highly Mixed Messages - not fine. At all.


It's all it would take for you or I to be happy - a clear "it won't be available again" or "it might be available in the future". But we would still have this thread with different people demanding to know why, and what changed since the initial statement, and speculating over copyright infringement, Brexit, ERP and all sorts. GW could make us happy easily enough, but it wouldn't stop the complaining. And every statement they made would be further grist to the mill of those looking to whack GW around the head at every opportunity. I mean there are literally people that seem to make a living running YouTube channels that exist solely to explain why GW sucks on a twice-weekly basis.

So when you're operating in an environment like that - where you have rabid fans and equally rabid detractors, a lot of the usual rules for how you do business, and how you communicate with customers (or indeed, non-customers with a grudge) change. Just simply providing an honest, rational explanation often isn't the best solution.

That's not to say GW have it spot on, or that they've found the right balance. I sort of err towards thinking they're being a bit over-cautious on what they're saying in this case. Just that the comparisons with what a "normal" company would do are not necessarily useful.
Complaining is not binary. It does not exist or not exist and that is it. The severity matters. Actually, the severity is the only thing that matters since someone will always complain about anything. It continually floors me how many humans choose not to understand such a fundamentally basic concept as nuance.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 15:21:47


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Derek H wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
GW doesn't like to explain, and it doesn't like to apologize. GW thinks "communication" means constantly bombarding the marks err customers with social-media style advertising "content." When things go wrong, radio silence is the preferred go-to, and when they go so wrong that isn't an option any more, they issue some kind of statement that is always very careful not to acknowledge it was their screw-up, and presenting whatever they're going to do about it as some big favor to everybody. People only think it's better than the Kirby era because back then they didn't even do the social media advertising err "engagement."

It's interesting, it's honestly rare to see a company so unwilling to hold up its hands when it screws up. Even their FAQs and errata never apologize or admit they got something wrong, no matter how badly they screw something up. Who can forget the Iron Hands nerf, where they so memorably let drop that they had been warned by the playtesting team what a fiasco they were creating, but decided to go ahead anyway because <reasons>, and then presented the fact that they were fixing what should never have been released in the first place as some sort of big gift to the community?


They've been like that (or much worse than that) for decades. Why would anyone expect anything different now? All the moaning, wailing and gnashing of teeth will make no difference to them whatsoever. And it won't make any difference to the future (non?) availability of Cursed City.

They are what they are and it makes life easier if you just learn to deal with it. If the way you choose to deal with it is to avoid buying their stuff then so be it, but you really don't need to try and convince everyone else to do the same.


I think that's probably what stands out though. Over recent years GW has been much more cognisant of customer relations, good communications, social media etc.

If you were talking about the GW of 2008 or something, under Kirby, I would have agreed with you. But, what makes this stand out is that's not very common these days, and especially for such a high profile release.

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
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Made in gb
Been Around the Block




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So what, because they have sucked before we should just eat gak now and not complain? Jeeze, GW did something that upset a lot of people in a big way. Let them be upset without trying to tell them they are wrong, at least GW isn't doing that..


I'm not actually saying people are wrong to complain, I'm just saying that they're wasting their time.

And many of them are making themselves look like petulant children. It's been real toys out the pram time here recently.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Derek H wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So what, because they have sucked before we should just eat gak now and not complain? Jeeze, GW did something that upset a lot of people in a big way. Let them be upset without trying to tell them they are wrong, at least GW isn't doing that..


I'm not actually saying people are wrong to complain, I'm just saying that they're wasting their time.

And many of them are making themselves look like petulant children. It's been real toys out the pram time here recently.



Even more wasting their time if they do it here, the place where GW definitely doesn't come to hear their complaints.

The reason they come here is to let off some steam and/or gloat about how evil GW is. And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing. That's why they say they don't understand - they don't seek understanding, they want their points of view validated.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 15:57:40


 
   
Made in gb
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





Kind of bizarre that people expect a reasonably large multi-national to lay bare their weaknesses and mistakes in detail for their competitors to potentially pore over. Seems like that could open them up to accusations of some sort of malfeasance there.
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

Sarouan wrote:
Derek H wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So what, because they have sucked before we should just eat gak now and not complain? Jeeze, GW did something that upset a lot of people in a big way. Let them be upset without trying to tell them they are wrong, at least GW isn't doing that..


I'm not actually saying people are wrong to complain, I'm just saying that they're wasting their time.

And many of them are making themselves look like petulant children. It's been real toys out the pram time here recently.



Even more wasting their time if they do it here, the place where GW definitely doesn't come to hear their complaints.

The reason they come here is to let off some steam and/or gloat about how evil GW is. And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing. That's why they say they don't understand - they don't seek understanding, they want their points of view validated.


Good Point. This whole thread is just about complainers wanting validation. Utterly pointless. If they were that bothered about rectifying the issue they wouldn’t be on here moaning and saying I told you so.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





JWBS wrote:
Kind of bizarre that people expect a reasonably large multi-national to lay bare their weaknesses and mistakes in detail for their competitors to potentially pore over. Seems like that could open them up to accusations of some sort of malfeasance there.


Nah, it has nothing to do with it. It's all about to spite their customers, obviously.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Andykp wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Derek H wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So what, because they have sucked before we should just eat gak now and not complain? Jeeze, GW did something that upset a lot of people in a big way. Let them be upset without trying to tell them they are wrong, at least GW isn't doing that..


I'm not actually saying people are wrong to complain, I'm just saying that they're wasting their time.

And many of them are making themselves look like petulant children. It's been real toys out the pram time here recently.



Even more wasting their time if they do it here, the place where GW definitely doesn't come to hear their complaints.

The reason they come here is to let off some steam and/or gloat about how evil GW is. And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing. That's why they say they don't understand - they don't seek understanding, they want their points of view validated.


Good Point. This whole thread is just about complainers wanting validation. Utterly pointless. If they were that bothered about rectifying the issue they wouldn’t be on here moaning and saying I told you so.
Not only do you totally lack comprehension of what is going on in this discussion, you are bragging about your complete lack of comprehension to boot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sarouan wrote:
Even more wasting their time if they do it here, the place where GW definitely doesn't come to hear their complaints.
GW has explicitly stated in the past few years that they do have people read forums to collect feedback. So yes, GW does come here to read complaints.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 16:22:30


 
   
Made in de
Fully-charged Electropriest






Sarouan wrote:
And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing.


Well, H.B.M.C at least buys their terrain and floor tiles. En masse. And as an Australian a certain degree of GW bashing should be allowed per se.
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

JWBS wrote:
Kind of bizarre that people expect a reasonably large multi-national to lay bare their weaknesses and mistakes in detail for their competitors to potentially pore over. Seems like that could open them up to accusations of some sort of malfeasance there.

so Sony and Nintendo are some small european companies operating a niche market in the toy sector with their consoles without any competition, therefore they can do those things,
while GW is a large multi-national company that cannot do it because their competitors will use their weakness to pore over?

I think you don't know what a large multi-national company is or what the market situation for GW looks like


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in ch
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





 Dryaktylus wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing.


Well, H.B.M.C at least buys their terrain and floor tiles. En masse. And as an Australian a certain degree of GW bashing should be allowed per se.

Australians who complain about the prices every release and then buy them anyway should be banned from bashing GW tbh.

Not literally of course, but when half of all complaints come from Down Under and none seems to actually realise why it keeps happening (hint, it's not because none is buying GW stuff there) I almost want to rip my hair out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 16:35:39


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Riverside, CA USA

If you don't need the miniatures, the ebay scalpers are selling off the main game components for a reasonable price. The local GW/independent stores are all completely sold out, which is probably for the best since I now have the complete game minus miniatures coming for 1/3 the retail price. I already have enough minis in my collection to stand in for most heroes and monsters.

~Kalamadea (aka ember)
My image gallery 
   
Made in gb
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





 kodos wrote:
JWBS wrote:
Kind of bizarre that people expect a reasonably large multi-national to lay bare their weaknesses and mistakes in detail for their competitors to potentially pore over. Seems like that could open them up to accusations of some sort of malfeasance there.

so Sony and Nintendo are some small european companies operating a niche market in the toy sector with their consoles without any competition, therefore they can do those things,
while GW is a large multi-national company that cannot do it because their competitors will use their weakness to pore over?

I think you don't know what a large multi-national company is or what the market situation for GW looks like


A multi-national is a company operating in several countries, pretty basic stuff. You missed "reasonably" when you paraphrased what I said, I'll assume it's that's because you're a bit dense, and this wasn't deliberate misrepresentation. If you think that Sony and Nintendo are laying bare their mistakes and weaknesses in detail for their competitors to use, which I assume you do, since you referenced them, I'd say that's probably a mistake too (but I personally doubt that they are).
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

it is more about the "large"
GW is not "large" nor is there any competition that would take over

also Sony and Nintendo said that they made mistakes, not in detail, just that they did something wrong and are now trying to get back on track and solve their problems

yet you claim that GW cannot do it and must hide this things because they are "large" and therefore vulnerable

what exactly is preventing GW from saying:
"we miscalculated the demand of the box and because of current situation with CoV19 are not able to produce more in the next months" additional Option A: "we try to make new boxes as soon as the situation get back to normal" Option B: "because of that we decided to make this a one time release and produce only the models in future"

instead of "ask your local store if they have something left, we don't know what will happen in future"

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Arbitrator wrote:
 Dryaktylus wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing.


Well, H.B.M.C at least buys their terrain and floor tiles. En masse. And as an Australian a certain degree of GW bashing should be allowed per se.

Australians who complain about the prices every release and then buy them anyway should be banned from bashing GW tbh.

Not literally of course, but when half of all complaints come from Down Under and none seems to actually realise why it keeps happening (hint, it's not because none is buying GW stuff there) I almost want to rip my hair out.
Tearing your hair out over something that isn't even true seems a bit excessive.
   
Made in nl
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

Why gw don’t make more of these I simply cannot fathom.

And for the fanbois raging about entitlement and so on, gw is not your friend.

As for this entitlement, gw can either apologise, explain themselves, and repair reputation OR suffer the loss of reputation, which in gw’s case means continue to reinforce their old reputation which was bad, frankly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 21:19:46


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Derek H wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
GW doesn't like to explain, and it doesn't like to apologize. GW thinks "communication" means constantly bombarding the marks err customers with social-media style advertising "content." When things go wrong, radio silence is the preferred go-to, and when they go so wrong that isn't an option any more, they issue some kind of statement that is always very careful not to acknowledge it was their screw-up, and presenting whatever they're going to do about it as some big favor to everybody. People only think it's better than the Kirby era because back then they didn't even do the social media advertising err "engagement."

It's interesting, it's honestly rare to see a company so unwilling to hold up its hands when it screws up. Even their FAQs and errata never apologize or admit they got something wrong, no matter how badly they screw something up. Who can forget the Iron Hands nerf, where they so memorably let drop that they had been warned by the playtesting team what a fiasco they were creating, but decided to go ahead anyway because <reasons>, and then presented the fact that they were fixing what should never have been released in the first place as some sort of big gift to the community?


They've been like that (or much worse than that) for decades. Why would anyone expect anything different now? All the moaning, wailing and gnashing of teeth will make no difference to them whatsoever. And it won't make any difference to the future (non?) availability of Cursed City.

They are what they are and it makes life easier if you just learn to deal with it. If the way you choose to deal with it is to avoid buying their stuff then so be it, but you really don't need to try and convince everyone else to do the same.


I don't think you actually read my post...

But supposing that someone else did want to try to convince other people not to buy GW products, why would you care? Let people be upset about it if they are, it's no skin off your back and it's the least you can do given how much GW has dropped the ball on this. Blaming people for being upset about getting screwed seems like directing your ire to the wrong place. If you're tired of reading about people mad about GW being GW, just don't read it any more? Nobody's forcing you to. The only thing that's surely a bigger waste of time than complaining on the internet is complaining on the internet about other people complaining on the internet.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 22:26:17


 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Scalpers are charging some £150-200 for it now. With prices expected to rise to silly levels if other things are considered (High elf dragon mage or sky cutter for example).

I dont know if it will be reprinted or not.

But boy oh boy would I feel silly if I paid £250 for a £90 game that will ultimately just sit on my mountain of stuff and it gets another print in 6 months time..


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Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





chaos0xomega wrote:


If I were a shareholder I'd want to know what the feth happened. Let alone it being right (and only sensible) to tell customers what's going on too.


I am a shareholder, and I absolutely do want to know what the feth happened. My investment no longer feels safe and I'm seriously considering selling out my holdings. With rumors swirling of production issues, ERP failures, etc. it sounds like theres a lot of potential for things to go very wrong for the company over the next few years. As a shareholder I do feel GW has a fiduciary duty to explain themselves to me and assure me that they have a grip on the situation.


Ditto, though I can’t say my investment no longer feels safe. Looking at the last report sent it’s never a better time.

As a GW fan, yes I look at rumour and all these things as to my enjoyment over the next few years.
As a shareholder, I won’t look at rumours like this to decide anything over the next few years. I’d look at a first bit of truth/fact that comes out as points of issue, but even then, you’d sell before waiting a few years if that much of a worry.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Sarouan wrote:
And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing.
Bereft of an actual point - or, rather, demonstrating time and time again that you just don't get why people are mad - you've decided to just come after me directly.

Good to know...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 23:02:16


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in pl
Dakka Veteran




Germany

Sarouan wrote:
Derek H wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So what, because they have sucked before we should just eat gak now and not complain? Jeeze, GW did something that upset a lot of people in a big way. Let them be upset without trying to tell them they are wrong, at least GW isn't doing that..


I'm not actually saying people are wrong to complain, I'm just saying that they're wasting their time.

And many of them are making themselves look like petulant children. It's been real toys out the pram time here recently.



Even more wasting their time if they do it here, the place where GW definitely doesn't come to hear their complaints.

The reason they come here is to let off some steam and/or gloat about how evil GW is. And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing. That's why they say they don't understand - they don't seek understanding, they want their points of view validated.


You just put your entire foot in your mouth

Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Armpit of NY

While it is reasonable to be unhappy with the way GW handled the Indomitus launch(at least at first), and this game, in the end, we lost nothing except an opportunity to give them money. While it would be nice to get some better word, not being able to give them money isn't a legal injury suffered by us, since we had no stake beyond wanting something that isn't available.

So while they handled it poorly, and I was very harsh on them on the Indomitus debacle, in particular, criticizing them for being jerks still doesn't convey any obligation on them to say or do anything about it. No doubt they are suffering more ill will over this. But that is their choice. They don't owe us anything. They should say something, though.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sarouan wrote:
Derek H wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So what, because they have sucked before we should just eat gak now and not complain? Jeeze, GW did something that upset a lot of people in a big way. Let them be upset without trying to tell them they are wrong, at least GW isn't doing that..


I'm not actually saying people are wrong to complain, I'm just saying that they're wasting their time.

And many of them are making themselves look like petulant children. It's been real toys out the pram time here recently.



Even more wasting their time if they do it here, the place where GW definitely doesn't come to hear their complaints.

The reason they come here is to let off some steam and/or gloat about how evil GW is. And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing. That's why they say they don't understand - they don't seek understanding, they want their points of view validated.

So they're not allowed to email GW their frustrations and vent their frustrations here? Didn't realize we were all relegated to one single task. Like, I NEVER email GW problems with their rules and come here to bash them. I can only pick one each day!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Bereft of an actual point - or, rather, demonstrating time and time again that you just don't get why people are mad - you've decided to just come after me directly.
Good to know...

by his arguments he could be as well the GW-Social Media guy trying to keep things in line
and in none of his posts he get on the arguments that are discussed but replied with whataboutism or arguments no one was talking about

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So they're not allowed to email GW their frustrations and vent their frustrations here? Didn't realize we were all relegated to one single task. Like, I NEVER email GW problems with their rules and come here to bash them. I can only pick one each day!

His point is that you have to be quiet about it

GW does not make mistakes, and if they do you have to email them and say to no one else so that they can hide it before anyone else notice
Because the last thing GW needs is bad PR and we as a costumer have a responsibility to make sure that there is none

so please stop spreading that GW made a mistakes, if someone ask about just say that GW handled it the same way as Sony is handling the unavailability of the PS5 (you know, remove all evidence that it will be available so new costumers are not confused and could think that it was already released) and email them that they need to cover it up better as people start to notice there is something wrong

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/23 05:34:03


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Wait, adult people are angry and frustrated beacuse they can't buy a certain toy? And a rather bad one to boot ?

Oh, the times...
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Cyel wrote:
Wait, adult people are angry and frustrated beacuse they can't buy a certain toy? And a rather bad one to boot ?

Oh, the times...
I don't know what's worse; how much of a fool you made yourself out to be, or how oblivious you are that you did it.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Cyel wrote:
Wait, adult people are angry and frustrated beacuse they can't buy a certain toy? And a rather bad one to boot ?

Oh, the times...

Adult people can shoot other people over being told to wear face-cloth, and this surprises you? Can I fit under the rock youv'e been hiding under too?
   
Made in pl
Dakka Veteran




Germany

Cyel wrote:
Wait, adult people are angry and frustrated beacuse they can't buy a certain toy? And a rather bad one to boot ?

Oh, the times...


Another person who completly missed the entire reason people are angry.

Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
 
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